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The Barlow-Morgenstern Method; (on musical plagiarism)
Topic Started: Sep 25 2012, 11:54 AM (563 Views)
caissier
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A pleasant programme imo about avoiding copying previous musical works. Some background on the My Sweet Lord case and some nice memories of George Harrison ..... and a contribution by Neil Innes about The Rutles ..... very clever, I think, and easy to take for granted - some lovely tunes ........

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdqDuOP59RI

Programme ..... http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01j2bmn/The_BarlowMorgenstern_Method/
Edited by caissier, Sep 25 2012, 12:08 PM.
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rumbaba
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I've a couple of Rutles albums: the last one, the Archeology album, has some great stuff on it, good songs in their own right. I've never liked 'My Sweet Lord', despite it being a straight nick from 'he's so fine'. It's an irritating dirge and George's reedy vocal puts me off any song he sings lead on.


I'm not a fan of Tony Hawkes. He's one of these people who contrive something, just so they can write a book about it. I'm looking forward to 'Round Ireland in a fridge (with the door closed)' <ok>



Round Ireland with a Fridge: His first book was an account of his attempt to hitchhike around Ireland with a fridge to win a bar bet.

Playing the Moldovans at Tennis: His second book, also the result of a drunken bet (with the comedian Arthur Smith), this time involved an attempt to beat each member of the Moldova national football team in a game of tennis, based on the theory that people good at one sport aren't necessarily good at others.

One Hit Wonderland: His third book, describes his attempt, over 10 years after his first, to write a second hit song. This culminates in him performing on Albanian television with Norman Wisdom and Tim Rice (ISBN 0-09-188210-9)

A Piano in the Pyrenees: The Ups and Downs of an Englishman in the French Mountains: An account of his purchase of a house in the Pyrenees in the south of France, after deciding that the two things he wanted in life were to meet his soul mate, and to purchase an "idyllic house abroad somewhere abroad".
Edited by rumbaba, Sep 25 2012, 12:24 PM.
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caissier
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Well, yes, I thought it too sweety-sweet and :( religious when it came out. In the programme it said George claimed never to have heard He's So Fine which I find hard to believe.

The Oasis stuff in the prog is quite fun. It seems strange to be able to copyright a short sequence of notes. Songs are more than that - individual creations with their own individual meaning and feeling, aren't they?
Edited by caissier, Sep 25 2012, 12:23 PM.
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becky sharp
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caissier
Sep 25 2012, 12:22 PM
said George claimed never to have heard He's So Fine which I find hard to believe.

Exactly what I thought when listening to this,caissier.....enjoyed the programme though...thanks!
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rumbaba
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Led Zepplin and many others have used old blues riffs, melodies, chord progressions but it would be hard to say who actually wrote them in the first place. There's nothing new in it though. Classical composers often used bits of traditional folk melodies, hymns, whatever . Music never emerges fully formed from a vacuum. I think Men at work, who wrote 'Down Under' were very harshly treated but George and Noel were a bit naughty.The problem is that you may have heard a snatch of something on the radio and not even known what it was or been aware that you were listening to it: it gets stored away in memory and then you write what you think is an original song that turns out to have a distinctive hook or riff that has been used before. Also, a lot of popular music operates in a very narrow musical channel and it is inevitable that people, playing around with well used chord structures will come up with the same arpeggios, riffs, snatches of melody.

Edited by rumbaba, Sep 25 2012, 01:15 PM.
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caissier
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So does the 50 year rule (?) apply with musical copyright ?
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rumbaba
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I think there is a difference between using something for free and claiming it for your own. I think anyone can reprint 'Moby Dick' without having to pay for it but I'm not sure it's in order to claim to have written it. I don't think the 50 year rule applies, except with regard to royalties. I'm no lawyer but I think someone might be able to claim some sort of damage if ownership is not recognised.
Edited by rumbaba, Sep 25 2012, 02:46 PM.
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caissier
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I was thinking of The Toy's Lovers' Concerto, based on a classical piece (?????) ..... can't remember what it was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGDZc9bdUZM&playnext=1&list=PL600A2A6C22893170&feature=results_video
Edited by caissier, Sep 25 2012, 02:53 PM.
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rumbaba
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http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law


6.Duration of copyright
The 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act states the duration of copyright as;

i.For literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works
70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last remaining author of the work dies.

If the author is unknown, copyright will last for 70 years from end of the calendar year in which the work was created, although if it is made available to the public during that time, (by publication, authorised performance, broadcast, exhibition, etc.), then the duration will be 70 years from the end of the year that the work was first made available.

ii.Sound Recordings and broadcasts
50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was created, or,

if the work is released within that time: 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was first released.

Edited by rumbaba, Sep 25 2012, 02:52 PM.
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caissier
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Aha! .... <happy> <ok>
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rumbaba
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Wrong thread, I've moved this. <erm>



Edited by rumbaba, Sep 25 2012, 07:52 PM.
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dai Cottomy
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caissier
Sep 25 2012, 02:51 PM
I was thinking of The Toy's Lovers' Concerto, based on a classical piece (?????) ..... can't remember what it was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGDZc9bdUZM&playnext=1&list=PL600A2A6C22893170&feature=results_video
It was J.S.Bach's Minuet in G
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caissier
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Ah! ... right Dai ..... thanks
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rumbaba
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I remember the song for some reason.
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Caro

George claimed never to have heard He's So Fine which I find hard to believe.

I don't. They've never sounded in the least alike to me.
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rumbaba
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Really, Caro? Up the tempo slightly and sing it with the 'doo langs'

'My sweet Lord'
doo lang, doo lang,doo lang
Oh my Lord
doo lang, doo lang, doo lang,
I really want to see you Lord......


Actually, apart from George's thin, reedy, whiney voice and the dirgey arrangement, this is a really dreadful lyric (when you see it written it down) and that's before we get to the advert for Harry Ramsden's world famous fish and chip restaurant. :(
Edited by rumbaba, Sep 26 2012, 10:07 AM.
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caissier
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The notes and tune are close/the same but I did think they were two different things.

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Very spiritual, George ....
Edited by caissier, Sep 26 2012, 09:29 AM.
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rumbaba
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caissier
Sep 26 2012, 09:14 AM
The notes and tune are close/the same but I did think they were two different things.

I'm not quite getting that Caissier <erm> He put some new words to someone else's tune. I'm happy to believe that it wasn't deliberate and he didn't realise it but, once it has been pointed out, he should stick his hands up and pay the money, not try to fight it in court.

There is a another, more insidious thing that goes on in the music business that I don't like. This is where 'pop stars' use their commercial muscle to coerce songwiters into giving them a songwriting credit and a share of the writing royalties. A smaller percentage of a big hit is better than 100% ownership of a song that you can't sell under your own name, so they do it because they want to make a living. I heard the original demo of 'Living on a prayer' by a guy called Desmond Childs: the whole song is there, lyric, melody, chord structure, it's a complete song. Most Bon Jovi fans think Jon Bon Jovi wrote it. His name and his producer's name are down there as co-writers but they had nothing to do with it. They did arrange it for Bon Jovi's particular brand of 'Poodle Rock' but it is, without doubt, the same song. Check out any album by Michael Jackson, Madonna, etc, etc and you'll see it. Sometimes they'll contribute a verse or change a couple of lines but it's something I think is dishonest. Chuck Berry was amazed when his records first appeared with various names on there as co-writers (I think DJ Alan Freed was one of them) but, that said, he never credited his own piano player Johnny Johnson, who probably wrote most of the tunes. As Keith Richard once said 'No guitar player ever wrote a song in those keys'. RUMBABA
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