| Scottish Independence | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 16 2012, 10:47 AM (547 Views) | |
| rumbaba | Oct 16 2012, 10:47 AM Post #1 |
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I don't get to vote because I don't live there ![]() http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/scotland-to-be-offered-independence-or-sugary-snack-2-2012101544981 |
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| Mobson | Oct 16 2012, 11:01 AM Post #2 |
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I don't get to vote because I'm no Scottish! but if I was, I would go for the 'Creme Egg' ...what about you Rum?
Edited by Mobson, Oct 16 2012, 11:01 AM.
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| madfor4 | Oct 16 2012, 12:13 PM Post #3 |
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I suggest we go back to Culloden and sort it out like men.
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| caissier | Oct 16 2012, 12:13 PM Post #4 |
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Alex Salmond's masterplan - enfranchise 16 year olds and broadcast Braveheart just before the vote. Job - maybe - done. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kRLbMKu_8Vg/UGTxOmta9KI/AAAAAAAABzI/JUJMfGnbagY/s1600/braveheart_freedom.jpg Polls say about 30% are in favour of independance and that that is unlikely to change. It's a fantastic waste of time and effort just to please a relatively few romantics with heads full of William Wallace, Robert the Bruce, and Rob Roy MacGregor. It's a nice idea and story but that's all. The way the world is going we need to stick together. Edited by caissier, Oct 16 2012, 12:18 PM.
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| becky sharp | Oct 16 2012, 01:12 PM Post #5 |
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| rumbaba | Oct 16 2012, 01:36 PM Post #6 |
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I think it's possible that, some years ago, Alex Salmond actually wanted Scottish independence and thought it would be a good thing. In the days before the financial markets collapsed and the EU was brought to its knees, the prospect of a 'Caledonian Tiger' probably seemed quite attractive. The fact that he wasn't beating down the door of Westminster as soon as he won an overall majority and had to be pushed and shoved into actually having a referendum, speaks volumes. He has had a dose of political reality, running the Scottish assembly, and I think he knows it's not viable. His preference was to have more powers for Scotland without full independence but Cameron called his bluff and, as leader of the Nationalists, he can hardly not go to the country. My feeling is that there is no appetite for full independence in Scotland and if, by some freak, due to some Government scandal or whatever, the vote went in his favour, then he would use the whole business of terms to scupper it. The devil is in the detail and it is impossible to know how to vote until a whole range of issues have been sorted out. I think Scotland would probably have to apply to join the EU for starters, then there is defence and a whole host of economic issues. Also, the 'free tuition fees and social care' policy is being to look unsustainable. Salmond is no mug, he is politically astute and I will be interested to see how he squares this circle. |
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| dai Cottomy | Oct 16 2012, 01:46 PM Post #7 |
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If an independent Scotland is to be financed by North Sea Oil, with no further support from the U.K., what happens when the oil finally runs out? |
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| rumbaba | Oct 16 2012, 01:53 PM Post #8 |
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We'll use lard |
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| tafkaj | Oct 16 2012, 01:56 PM Post #9 |
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More to the point, will the independent Scots pay the rest of the UK for the infrastructure they'll be using to get what's left of North Sea oil out of the ground anyway? |
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| Mobson | Oct 16 2012, 02:08 PM Post #10 |
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I'm oil stock piling already!
Edited by Mobson, Oct 16 2012, 04:00 PM.
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| rumbaba | Oct 16 2012, 03:17 PM Post #11 |
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I'm not sure even the Scot Nats think they can pin everything on oil anymore. Our greatest export is our people (I should know )
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| Mobson | Oct 16 2012, 04:01 PM Post #12 |
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...and their undoubted humility ...and a certain
Edited by Mobson, Oct 16 2012, 04:02 PM.
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| Hugh Jampton | Oct 16 2012, 04:50 PM Post #13 |
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We'd better get fracking
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| caissier | Oct 16 2012, 05:09 PM Post #14 |
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I'm pretty sure revenue from North Sea oil is falling rapidly. |
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| Hugh Jampton | Oct 16 2012, 07:44 PM Post #15 |
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Try to imagine all the customs men sitting on Hadrian's Wall |
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| madfor4 | Oct 16 2012, 08:27 PM Post #16 |
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Everyone mocked Francis Maude's suggestion that people should keep “A bit of fuel in a jerry can in the garage".... However, he's really a member of the 'Tartan Army' and was planning for the long-term. While North Sea oil lasts every Scot should fill up a couple of jerry cans full of fuel and, in 10 years time, they'll be able to hold England to ransom and get much better terms for independence.
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| Caro | Oct 17 2012, 03:53 AM Post #17 |
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My sympathies are with Scotland. Talk of England et al providing infrastructure sounds all very well and good, but I am quite sure they give the rough end of the deal. We live far away from the seat of government here, and it is noticeable, as I am sure it is in Scotland. Squeaky wheels might get more oil, and do the ones close by able to make their noise heard. At least Scotland has got some oil. Here we can provide export earnings in sheep and tourism but it's not here that gets the attention of roads etc. No, no, it's the 'roads of national significance' - ie the Auckland and Wellington roads. Our roads and bridges are told they can wait. I am quite sure Scotland has had the bum's rush over the years and no wonder they think going it alone has something going for it. For all that, it would be an unwise venture - it's hard to be a small country in global economics. The resentment of the English towards Scotland is unusual though - normally the bigger place is quite tolerant of its little neighbour. (Australians are much friendlier to NZers than vice versa, and I think the same is true for Canada and the USA.) |
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| waiting4atickle | Oct 17 2012, 08:25 AM Post #18 |
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What resentment? |
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| Mobson | Oct 17 2012, 08:28 AM Post #19 |
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ditto!
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| Caro | Oct 17 2012, 08:49 AM Post #20 |
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The resentment I see whenever this topic is talked about, and that English people don't even realise they are showing. There's an undertone of "How dare those Scottish upstarts think they can go it alone?" Or a feeling that the English have been put upon somehow and are not getting their fair share. On another message board I belong to another NZer and I sometimes smile (privately usually) at the Englishmen who think they are being really fair and reasonable but whose prejudices are pretty clear. I have been very surprised at how much the different components of the UK separate themselves. United isn't the first word that comes to mind when I read comments on anything at all nationalistic. It's not dissimilar to how South Islanders here might talk about the North Island, but it is just unusual to see it from the bigger place, which is usually tolerant, if smug. English people don't seem tolerant or smug about the Scots. |
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| waiting4atickle | Oct 17 2012, 08:56 AM Post #21 |
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Sounds like a lot of tosh to me. I think I heard that support for Scottish independence is higher in England than it is there, although I suspect the majority of English people don't care either way. I just hope we don't have too much exposure to the ridiculously long referendum campaign. |
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| Caro | Oct 17 2012, 09:05 AM Post #22 |
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Well, you're bound to. British media have a way of squeezing every last bit out of an issue. British people seem to have more staying power than NZers, who get sick of the same thing being reported daily. (And also have just local papers which tend to focus on local affairs.) |
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| rumbaba | Oct 17 2012, 09:09 AM Post #23 |
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Very few people in Scotland really want full independence and it will be worth it to nail this nonsense once and for all. I think the English, and others, sometimes confuse the support for the SNP to run the Scottish Assembly with a desire for nationalism. The Conservative party was wiped out in Scotland under Thatcher, who punished the Scots ( and they despised her in return) and the Labour party has been very low calibre, they took the Scottish vote for granted, all their big hitters wanted to be in Westminster, and got punished for that, so they are struggling to come back. The Scots like Salmond but the don't want independence, this is voter expediency in action. I was working in Bratislava when, through national pride, the Slovaks let themselves get shafted by the Czechs in the heady rush for independence. It's better now: they are in the EU, have the Euro and are exploiting their proximity to Austria Edited by rumbaba, Oct 17 2012, 09:12 AM.
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| madfor4 | Oct 17 2012, 09:14 AM Post #24 |
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................My sympathies are with Scotland. Talk of England et al providing infrastructure sounds all very well and good, but I am quite sure they give the rough end of the deal....... Rough end of the deal???? On almost everything 'tuition fees', 'prescription charges', 'elderly support', etc. the Scots have a far better deal.... |
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| rumbaba | Oct 17 2012, 09:42 AM Post #25 |
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The tuition fees, care for the elderly, etc are becoming unsustainable for Scotland. |
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| madfor4 | Oct 17 2012, 09:55 AM Post #26 |
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They have been deemed 'unsustainable' in England for a long time.... I'm pleased that, at last, the 'in-out' vote will happen. It seems that, a bit like 'Danegeld', successive governments have been afraid to confront the issue and have given way too many times. I wrote "Second Class Citizens' here a few weeks ago. |
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| caissier | Oct 17 2012, 12:41 PM Post #27 |
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Caro .... I think, if anything, it's the other way round, though you do get some anti-Scottish abuse around the internet`. There is some strong anti-English feeling in Scotland which can turn into violence, and has even been called racism. Nationalism, however romantic, is usually suspect imo. The UK is a small enough country as it is. There is a current fad for emphasising regional identity with (relatively costly) dedicated television channels for Welsh and Gaelic speakers. For the Gaelic one the viewing statistics are, effectively, zero. Edited by caissier, Oct 17 2012, 12:41 PM.
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| rumbaba | Oct 17 2012, 01:17 PM Post #28 |
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Alba TV: everything is 'Alba' now, with reference to Scotland. I never heard of 'Alba' growing up: only 'Scotia' and 'Caledonia'. Now it's all the rage
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| Caro | Oct 17 2012, 10:18 PM Post #29 |
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I don't think of tuition fees and elderly support etc as infrastructure. They are social support structures. We have free fees at the polytechnic in Invercargill - this is not a sign of an area being well supported by government but a council initiative to try and stem population decline and the disadvantages of a community far from the seat of government and not getting much attention from them. (Despite my local MP being Deputy PM and Minister of Finance, we don't get a lot of benefits from this.) The comments here remind me very much of the situation between Maori and Pakeha here. They both bicker about each other (one of our Maori MPs got himself complained at for writing, in an email, about white motherf...ers; he was unrepentant, and Europeans moan about Maori privileges) and they both at times resent each other, and Maori get certain compensatory benefits, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that they are a deprived community generally. I don't know how Scotland gets its money to allow it to pay extra benefits and tuition fees etc, but presume they either get a sort of lump sum and that's how they spend it, or there is a compensatory element to this, which presupposes a community needing it. I don't recall Scottish roads showing a lot of signs of British money spent on them. We have a Maori television channel here - it was the cause of much controversy for ages as it was being set up with government funding but has proved the only channel that is free to air and has excellent programming. (Some in the Maori language but lots of interesting movies from other countries, and decent documentaries. We don't watch it much, preferring UKTV's British crime series, Downton Abbey - ooh series starts here tonight!, sports, and other light trivia.) But it certainly fills a large gap. It wasn't abuse I was talking about so much as just a feeling of being hard-done-by, and that is common with NZ Europeans talking about Maori, and it's not really valid. Whatever extras Maori (and I suspect Scotland) gets, it doesn't make up for high unemployment, high crime rates, and a feeling of their issues not being heard. (And Maori are quite strong politically, a government coalition partner at the moment.) I feel I could insert Maori for Scotland in many of the comments here and it would sound the same. I expect the Scots to be nationalistic, being a minority, but I was really surprised to see how nationalistic the English are. (But I don't have the British distaste for the word nationalism; to me it is a preferable word to patriotism, but I am pretty sure that's not the case to Britons. New Zealand hasn't had the huge problems with nationalism - world wars directly in their backyard, the Serbia/Croatian business, Irish troubles, etc. Our experiences with nationalism have been the enthusiasm and happiness of people at the Rugby World Cup and sporting excesses mostly.) |
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| waiting4atickle | Oct 17 2012, 11:00 PM Post #30 |
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I think you're deluding yourself, Caro, but I was interested in your comments about Maori TV, because I was going to ask you about that - I was looking at some Taylor family photos recently and in one of them, possibly taken at the Miramar Roxy opening night, I was surprised to see a Maori TV cameraman in the foreground. |
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| Caro | Oct 18 2012, 09:32 PM Post #31 |
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I will put a new thread up with a bit more of the Maori television channel, w4at. Maybe not quite immediately. |
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| Mobson | Oct 18 2012, 09:51 PM Post #32 |
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Question Time has just started - coming from Easterhouse in Glasgow, it will definitely be discussing this matter since amongst the panellists tonight are Nicola Sturgeion MSP, Ruth Davidson MSP and Margaret Curran MP plus the Scottish editor of the Daily Telegraph and a trade union leader....personally I will not be watching as I'm going for the French 3-part mini series of the Jackal.....
Edited by Mobson, Oct 18 2012, 09:56 PM.
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| Norm Deplume | Oct 18 2012, 10:43 PM Post #33 |
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Caro Regarding Scotland, you are most definitely well out of touch. The UK Government subsidises the Scots to the tune of several billion pounds year on year. On top of that we give employment to them via our armed forces...particularly the submarines based in Scotland. As part of the UK, there are many other advantages including Defence that they share with the rest of the nation. With their severe lack of industry, in my opinion they, like Wales, are unsustainable as separate countries. |
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| rumbaba | Oct 19 2012, 09:54 AM Post #34 |
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I don't know Norm, but the anti- independence group seems to have dropped the 'unsustainable' argument. The line now is that Scotland could survive as a separate nation but the Scots would be better off as part of the Union. Maybe it's for political reasons but nobody is making the 'Scotland will die without England' argument any more. |
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| caissier | Oct 19 2012, 11:20 AM Post #35 |
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That's an interesting view, rum ..... it's got a ring of truth about it. Alex Salmond, for all, his big puppy eyes and gentle smile, does seems a crafty operator. It looks like the appropriate attitude to him is - "What's he up to .... ?" |
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| Mobson | Oct 19 2012, 11:45 AM Post #36 |
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I really don't care either way! The Scots can stay or go! metaphorically that is...we will have two years more of this banter if we're not careful and there are other much pressing matters to discuss! For instance, can the Scots claim Rod Stewart? and will Andy Murray ever win another grand slam and/or become no 1 in the world?
Edited by Mobson, Oct 19 2012, 11:56 AM.
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| rumbaba | Oct 19 2012, 12:33 PM Post #37 |
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You can keep Rod Stewart, Mobs. I'm worried about my status though. I was born and raised in Scotland but have been resident in England for 30 odd years: can I have dual nationality? What sort of passport will I have?
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| waiting4atickle | Oct 19 2012, 01:01 PM Post #38 |
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I'd have thought that Scotland could survive okay as an independent nation, but I doubt they would be any better off. Unless, of course, as someone suggested on QT last night, they set themselves up as a tax haven. However, I don't think that fits in with the vision of most pro-independence Scots. As for your status, rum, we might have to repatriate you. |
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| Mobson | Oct 19 2012, 01:22 PM Post #39 |
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Hmmm...think we'll need to have a Referendum to decide that!
Edited by Mobson, Oct 30 2012, 03:04 PM.
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| tafkaj | Oct 26 2012, 10:57 AM Post #40 |
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Scotland's pretty mountainous, so it's never going to have the same sort of infrastructure that England has - that's why the largest population centres are in the lowlands. And it's a fair idea to have greater representation for populations geographically distant from the main seat of government, but that's not what the SNP are about. Their aim is for Scottish independence, not from England, but from the United Kingdom. It's become quite clear over the last week or so that the SNP are in a lot of disarray with their plans. It turns out that Alex Salmond (SNP Leader) lied to the UK and to his own party when he said that he had already taken legal advice on an independent Scotland's relation to the EU and to NATO - he hadn't, and the game was given away by his own Deputy Leader, Nicola Sturgeon ... And, in any case, as every member of an SNP government will be required to have the name of a fish, there won't be enough people to form one! |
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| The_Bush_Doctor | Oct 29 2012, 12:34 AM Post #41 |
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As a someone who was dragged up and edumacated in Scotland and as a kilt and sometimes turban wearing Punjabi Scotsman I personally do believe in the Union. [I don't believe in the Union of India and Pakistan but I do believe in One Punjab ]However, for the friendly Englishmen like our Madfor4 I give ye this: O Flower of Scotland, When will we see Your like again, That fought and died for, Your wee bit Hill and Glen, And stood against him, Proud Edward's Army, And sent him homeward, Tae think again. The Hills are bare now, And Autumn leaves Lie thick and still, O'er land that is lost now, Which those so dearly held, That stood against him, Proud Edward's Army, And sent him homeward, Tae think again. Those days are past now, And in the past They must remain, But we can still rise now, And be the nation again, That stood against him, Proud Edward's Army, And sent him homeward, Tae think again. O Flower of Scotland, When will we see Your like again, That fought and died for, Your wee bit Hill and Glen, And stood against him, Proud Edward's Army, And sent him homeward, Tae think again.
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| tafkaj | Oct 30 2012, 02:59 PM Post #42 |
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And wasn't it the perfect vindication of the outstanding success and meaningfulness of the Union that the "thrashed proud Edward" lyric could be included in the opening ceremony of the Olympic Games without any fear whatsoever that old antagonisms would - or could - be reignited? |
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| tafkaj | Nov 10 2012, 12:39 PM Post #43 |
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I note that the SNP have now submitted the question they want to ask to the Electoral Commission: "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?" They think that's a fair and unsponsored question ... If they genuinely believe that they surely won't mind if the Electoral Commission ask them to present the following similarly fair and unsponsored question to the good people of Scotland: "Do you disagree that Scotland should be an independent country?" |
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...what about you Rum?
I'm oil stock piling already!
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4:47 PM Jul 13