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Woolwich 22/05/2013
Topic Started: May 24 2013, 10:23 AM (1,587 Views)
Norm Deplume
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I am not quite sure as to how to put this withouit seeming to be racist but isn't it time for Muslim communities throughout the country to account for the radicals within their midst?
The vast majority of them, allegedly, abhor the atrocities as much as we indiginous folk do. That being the case,why do they not sort the baddies out and give all the info that they have to the security services?
As in any group of people, we all know who we can trust and who we can't, so if the British Muslims are as British as they would have us believe, then let them play the white man and report the radicals before any more atrocities are carried out.
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rumbaba
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This was a horrific attack and people are right to be upset but I am equally upset when an old man is kicked to death by a gang of teenagers or a teenager is killed for wearing the 'wrong trainers' in the wrong part of London, by what happened in Hungerford, Dunblane, mass murder in Norway, US school killings and so on and so on. I also recall the murders that happened in Ireland and the UK mainland during the height of the IRA terror campaign. What I don't like about this case is the media hysteria and subtext that suggests we are all going to be murdered in our beds by crazy muslims. One person died, it's tragic but brutal murders happen on a depressingly regular basis - poor April Jones' body hasn't been found yet and we can only imagine what she had to endure. The danger is that this will play into the hands of people like the EDL and the NF. Let's keep a sense of proportion and wait for the facts.
Edited by rumbaba, May 24 2013, 10:50 AM.
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Lurkalot

Was Woolwich act 'terrorism'?


How can one create a definition of "terrorism" that includes the London machete attack on this soldier without including many acts of violence undertaken by the US, the UK and its allies and partners? Can that be done? [...] the term at this point seems to have no function other than propagandistically and legally legitimizing the violence of western states against Muslims while delegitimizing any and all violence done in return to those states.
Edited by Lurkalot, May 24 2013, 11:23 AM.
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tafkaj

Sense of proportion, yes, rum - but the difference between those crimes passionnel and Woolwich is that the latter was carried out in the name of a movement. As a result, the fall out will be completely different.
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Mobson
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What makes this only 'one person died' tragedy so incredible is that many people on the scene interacted with the two murderers whilst waiting for the police to arrive on the scene....no rushing off by the perpetrators, so in one respect, the police work was already done for them as it was for the poor victim. After the brutal act had taken place, showing his body lying in the street, naming the clothing he was wearing, showing film of the perpetrators talking about the crime with the weapons in their bloodied hands, all these are hard scenes to get out of your mind

...a friend was talking to me about it last night - a friend who lived in Shepherds Bush for many years before locating to the country last year, who often had run-ins with local Somalians about the state of their property or their rubbish left in the street. She said after seeing this she would have second thoughts about confronting people even though this was clearly a hate crime against a soldier....it is not necessarily terrorism - it could be racism - that causes these ugly murders. Families have been blown up in their houses for the same thing...it is very difficult to know what to do and it is impossible, however, vigilant you are to be safe anytime, anywhere.....

Edited by Mobson, May 24 2013, 11:33 AM.
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rumbaba
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A lot of brutal murders are not crimes passionnel , Taf, they are acts of casual and, sometimes, random violence. Life is cheap to some people in our society. I'm not saying that the police and other agencies should do nothing or that the Islamic terrorist angle should be ignored, I just think we need to keep it in perspective. During the IRA campaign, people weren't attacking Catholics or Catholic churches in the UK as far as I remember. We are in a time of economic hardship, young people are frustrated and angry and extreme groups will point to easy targets and use this and other events as justification. I worked for a while in Bosnia and I have some idea of what happens when ethnic/cultural groups within a society turn on each other - tit for tat atrocities, rumour and manipulation - everybody loses in the end.
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caissier
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Just more of the madness ...... closer to home this time.
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rumbaba
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Yes, Caiss, it's madness, whether it's white supremacists, radical muslims, or anybody else.
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Mobson
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More harrowing scenes via the media; the soldier's wife, parents, sisters hold a press conference to talk about Lee and honour his life...reading the last text to his mum, his father courageously held it together...a very brave family... <rose>
Edited by Mobson, May 24 2013, 01:09 PM.
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rumbaba
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It's not for me to say, maybe it helps them, but I'm inclined to leave these poor people alone to grieve. It becomes part of the media circus.
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Mobson
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They obviously must be in shock and totally unprepared to know what to do ....yesterday they issued a statement to the media requesting privacy....but today they must have felt compelled to talk about their loved one.
Edited by Mobson, May 24 2013, 03:21 PM.
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Norm Deplume
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Luton 2012



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psZBaJU_Cvo&feature=youtu.be

Listen carefully to the man explaining to the girl about her going to hell. Listen also to what he thinks of obeying the law in this country.
Be afraid my friends...be very afraid!
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May-Cee

I take your point, Norm, about how moderate Muslims should speak up louder about the more extreme attitudes (and actions) that are held (and carried out) in their name.

But sometimes life ain't that easy...

I grew up in Belfast during the dark days of the Troubles; and as a Catholic I had very moderate Nationalist notions that weren't really anti-British.
(In fact, some of my best friends are English!)
But...

If I had said out loud what I really think about Sinn Fein, Gerry Adams, the IRA...
I would have been tarred and feathered.
(Literally; that's what the IRA used to do.)

Even today, when I go back home, I keep my thoughts to myself.


By the way, Norm, you might want to rethink that phrase - "let them play the white man".
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becky sharp
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May-Cee
May 24 2013, 05:19 PM
By the way, Norm, you might want to rethink that phrase - "let them play the white man".
I'm surprised,I must say, that 11 posts went by before this was brought up.
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caissier
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It's a big pity that people refer to this community or that. We are one big human being community and it is crazy to be distracted by superficial differences. Tragically the realpolitik of separate nations with different interests leads to the deaths of thousands being countenanced and seen as inevitable or acceptable. The suffering of individuals is lost in the 'big picture'.
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Norm Deplume
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What you see is what you get folks. There's far too much mamby-pambying about. Let us have the freedom to say what the vast majority of indiginous Britons think.

Sorry to disagree with you Caiss but we are certainly not one big community,. The efforts on all sides to integrate are nothing short of pathetic.

I have said and written so often that the purpose of ALL Muslims is to dominate the world and indeed this is slowly and surely happening under our very noses. When the word comes from the 'Imam in Chief' to finalise this domination, I wonder just how "BRITISH", British Muslims will be. Will their affinities be to the UK their adopted country, or will Allah have their vote?

I know what I think the outcome will be. Do You?
Edited by Norm Deplume, May 24 2013, 06:59 PM.
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caissier
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Norm Deplume
May 24 2013, 10:23 AM
I am not quite sure as to how to put this withouit seeming to be racist but isn't it time for Muslim communities throughout the country to account for the radicals within their midst?
The vast majority of them, allegedly, abhor the atrocities as much as we indiginous folk do. That being the case,why do they not sort the baddies out and give all the info that they have to the security services?
As in any group of people, we all know who we can trust and who we can't, so if the British Muslims are as British as they would have us believe, then let them play the white man and report the radicals before any more atrocities are carried out.
Yes, but Norm, how can anyone sort of the baddies in advance of a crime being committed? There are all sorts of hotheads, loudmouths, show offs. How can you know which will actually go through with their fantasy? It might be Muslim informers are telling of possible perpetrators and I think I've read MI5 has Muslim people 'embedded' in so-called communities. Anyone could point to various people who've gone on the rampage with guns and it's been said, "I'd never have thought it !!" ..... as at Dunblane. These people looked to be attention-seekers and off their heads more than being political terrorists and who can predict when a nutter is going to snap?.
Edited by caissier, May 24 2013, 07:10 PM.
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caissier
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Norm Deplume
May 24 2013, 06:49 PM
What you see is what you get folks. There's far too much mamby-pambying about. Let us have the freedom to say what the vast majority of indiginous Britons think.

Sorry to disagree with you Caiss but we are certainly not one big community,. The efforts on all sides to integrate are nothing short of pathetic.

I have said and written so often that the purpose of ALL Muslims is to dominate the world and indeed this is slowly and surely happening under our very noses. When the word comes from the 'Imam in Chief' to finalise this domination, I wonder just how "BRITISH", British Muslims will be. Will their affinities be to the UK their adopted country, or will Allah have their vote?

I know what I think the outcome will be. Do You?
Who knows? The uncomfortable fact is the world is changing and populations are moving. With climate change, in a few years time, they'll have no choice anyway. There are crashes of different ways of life. The thing about a world dominant Caliphate is alarming but I can't believe it will come about, for economic reasons if nothing else. The Chinese wouldn't allow it when they become top nation - after my time I hope. Apart from that I think sheer rationality will prevail and 'whoever' will have to accept that a religion based on life in Arabia in the C7th doesn't really work now ..... but yes - there'll be a bit of trouble and strife before that happens.
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Lurkalot

becky sharp
May 24 2013, 06:34 PM
May-Cee
May 24 2013, 05:19 PM
By the way, Norm, you might want to rethink that phrase - "let them play the white man".
I'm surprised,I must say, that 11 posts went by before this was brought up.
I hadn't read the first post, can get bored easily! <wink>

besides I don't take what I read in forums seriously anyway and I was on the former bbc points askew board in my past life but that got too boring for me. lol

it's now called points aspew or should that be aspuke! Let them have their puke!

http://www.busterpants.co.uk/pointsaspew/index.php

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Lurkalot

I remember getting this in my inbox a few years ago ...

"A man was in New York`s central park, when a dog went wild and attacked a young boy.
The man was able to grab the dog by the neck, pulling it off the boy and choking it to death. A reporter for the NY Times comes to interview him, congratulating him on his act of heroism.
He suggests the headline: "New Yorker saves the life of a young boy!";
But, the man told him; I`m not from NY.
Ok, then how about: "American hero saves the day."
But, the man told him “I`m not American”.
Then, where are you from? Asked the reporter.
I`m from Pakistan, the man answered.
The next day the headlines read: "MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALIST STRANGLES DOG IN CENTRAL PARK. FBI INVESTIGATING POSSIBLE LINKS TO AL QAEDA"..."

<laugh>
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Mobson
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becky sharp
May 24 2013, 06:34 PM
May-Cee
May 24 2013, 05:19 PM
By the way, Norm, you might want to rethink that phrase - "let them play the white man".
I'm surprised,I must say, that 11 posts went by before this was brought up.
I'm not...I try to be free-thinking and liberal minded, but find it increasingly hard to reconcile my beliefs with what is going on around me or in the rest of the country....I fear that if we are too soft on radicals who care not a jot for the UK, we will be in serious trouble, and if you watch that link that Norm has put up it is very troubling to see people saying that unless you are a Muslim, you are dammed...our country is not an Islamic one although there are obviously those who would like to make it so and impose their radical beliefs upon us....

Monday: reflecting on something that happened on a London bus...earlier this week I alighted a bus outside the V&A that was travelling down the Gloucester Road towards Earls Court. It was packed so I stood near the driver's compartment as I was only going one stop. A seated older white man was having a full blown argument with a smartly dressed man with a foreign accent, who was practically standing over him; I don't know what bought about their row but it definitely got political when the tourist said we should not be in other people's countries, killing their civilians, that we should stay at home and deal with our own problems or words to that effect. The seated man became more and more agitated, finally screaming at the tourist that he should get off the bus and out of our country immediately. I spoke to the driver who said the argument had been going on for some time. It was the first time I have ever witnessed such an incident on a bus...maybe I've been lucky...but I sense there is an awful lot of tension around about a diverse amount of matters at the moment....

Later that day I visited St Mary's Hospital in Paddington...inside and out, in the foyer, in the corridors, in fact wherever I went there were very few white people...everyone was either Asian, Black or wearing the dark robes of a Muslim...I felt quite alone and once my appointment was over I hurried to get home...

I do feel weird writing like this but my friends and I are discussing things like this much more these days than we ever did before....
Edited by Mobson, May 24 2013, 09:02 PM.
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Lurkalot

Mobson
May 24 2013, 08:55 PM
...maybe I've been lucky...but I sense there is an awful lot of tension around about a diverse amount of matters at the moment....

media and political properganda donot help.
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Lurkalot

Norm Deplume
May 24 2013, 06:49 PM
I have said and written so often that the purpose of ALL Muslims is to dominate the world and indeed this is slowly and surely happening under our very noses.
wow! well obama is US president, I have my eyes set on being PM <laugh>
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Mobson
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R4's The World Tonight is discussing the question of the generational divide in the UK right now in relation to race and religion....citing that the over-sixties for instance are more concerned because they have not experienced European integration as younger generations have...
Edited by Mobson, May 24 2013, 09:25 PM.
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becky sharp
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With respect,Mobs your post,in response to mine, is nothing to do with what I posted about...my post expressed my surprise that the phrase" Play the white man" is still used and acceptable, to some, in this day and age.
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Lurkalot

becky sharp
May 24 2013, 09:18 PM
With respect,Mobs your post,in response to mine, is nothing to do with what I posted about...my post expressed my surprise that the phrase" Play the white man" is still used and acceptable, to some, in this day and age.
whether it is acceptable or not people will still use it, just like 'coconut' (brown on the outside but white on the inside) or 'banana' .....
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becky sharp
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Lurkalot
May 24 2013, 09:42 PM
whether it is acceptable or not people will still use it
Of course and that is up to the individual ..personally I don't think it's acceptable and will say so when I come across it.
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May-Cee

Hope I'm not taking this the wrong way, Mobs, but...

It comes across as you complaining about too many foreigners intruding into your very privileged life.
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rumbaba
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I don't want to patronise Norm but he is from the previous generation and, although I winced at the use of the phrase 'play the white man' , I decided to ignore it and cut him some slack.
Edited by rumbaba, May 24 2013, 11:34 PM.
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May-Cee

Point taken, Rum.
And my remark on another thread was way out of order.

I'm trying to be friendly around here; I certainly don't want to alienate fellow posters.

Apologies!
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DocWu

Mobson
May 24 2013, 08:55 PM
becky sharp
May 24 2013, 06:34 PM
May-Cee
May 24 2013, 05:19 PM
By the way, Norm, you might want to rethink that phrase - "let them play the white man".
I'm surprised,I must say, that 11 posts went by before this was brought up.
I'm not...I try to be free-thinking and liberal minded, but find it increasingly hard to reconcile my beliefs with what is going on around me or in the rest of the country....I fear that if we are too soft on radicals who care not a jot for the UK, we will be in serious trouble, and if you watch that link that Norm has put up it is very troubling to see people saying that unless you are a Muslim, you are dammed...our country is not an Islamic one although there are obviously those who would like to make it so and impose their radical beliefs upon us....

Monday: reflecting on something that happened on a London bus...earlier this week I alighted a bus outside the V&A that was travelling down the Gloucester Road towards Earls Court. It was packed so I stood near the driver's compartment as I was only going one stop. A seated older white man was having a full blown argument with a smartly dressed man with a foreign accent, who was practically standing over him; I don't know what bought about their row but it definitely got political when the tourist said we should not be in other people's countries, killing their civilians, that we should stay at home and deal with our own problems or words to that effect. The seated man became more and more agitated, finally screaming at the tourist that he should get off the bus and out of our country immediately. I spoke to the driver who said the argument had been going on for some time. It was the first time I have ever witnessed such an incident on a bus...maybe I've been lucky...but I sense there is an awful lot of tension around about a diverse amount of matters at the moment....

Later that day I visited St Mary's Hospital in Paddington...inside and out, in the foyer, in the corridors, in fact wherever I went there were very few white people...everyone was either Asian, Black or wearing the dark robes of a Muslim...I felt quite alone and once my appointment was over I hurried to get home...

I do feel weird writing like this but my friends and I are discussing things like this much more these days than we ever did before....
Mobs - I think the key phrase in your post is I try to be free-thinking and liberal minded". If you have to try to be those things, then there's a fair chance you're going against your own nature. You then go on to show why you aren't those things by throwing in an anecdotal, impressionistic description of your visit to the doctor. It's much the same where I live. I've occasionally found myself in the GP's waiting room feeling like I'm in the minority, what with those aging Asian women, then their kids with their kids....

But I remember my former GP, now retired, pointing out that these folks hadn't abandoned their old people to a destitute old age 'back home', or in care - no, they lived together and looked after them. He also pointed out, unnecessarily in my case, that immigrant workers were the backbone of the NHS - without them, it would collapse. As would the restaurant business where I live. And I ask myself - if these were white people, would I feel more kindly towards them? And if I did, why? Fortunately, I don't have to answer that because so many indigenous people have found the 'courage' to express their thinly-veiled racism and opposition to what this country actually is, a once-mighty empire that now has to get used to the idea that it's just another northern-hemisphere territory that once punched above its weight. That's the challenge - all the nationalistic guff about how 'great' we are or were is so much hot air. The world has changed, for good or for ill - be part of the future or join UKIP and spirit us all back to the 1950s.

Shall I tell you my personal anecdotes about being trapped in a railway carriage with some 18yr old squaddies on a train to Newcastle, with their porn mags, tins of lager and foul language in '88, or being on a bus into Oxford City a few months ago with a similar bunch of young army types, all tattoos and terrorising the passengers with their drunken 'fun' antics? And all white and enjoying their transitory sense of power?

We need to look more deeply into ourselves and the world around us before we respond to events in such a predictably unhelpful way. The world is a very complicated place and simple 'answers' will never solve the problems we face.
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Lurkalot

DocWu
May 25 2013, 12:06 AM
We need to look more deeply into ourselves and the world around us before we respond to events in such a predictably unhelpful way. The world is a very complicated place and simple 'answers' will never solve the problems we face.
<ok>
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tafkaj

DocWu
May 25 2013, 12:06 AM
... We need to look more deeply into ourselves and the world around us before we respond to events in such a predictably unhelpful way. The world is a very complicated place and simple 'answers' will never solve the problems we face.
True - but it shouldn't be a one-sided thing.
Edited by tafkaj, May 25 2013, 11:24 AM.
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Norm Deplume
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Why is racism only a 1-way thing?
The people in the video that I linked on to this thread will NEVER integrate into the British way of life. They CHOSE to come here...for what purpose? Certainly their reasons are not because they like us. Our hospitallity does not offend them though!

If we indiginous Brits, with our Christian ethics and British laws are so repulsive, why don't they pack their bags and go back to whence they came?

Of a 'previous'(?) generation I may well be Rum but all my marbles are still in the right place. It takes someone of my age to realise what a great country this used to be and how, in four/five decades, it has been completely f****d up by the immigration policies of succesive Governments.

It all started in the late 40s, early 50s when the then, Home Secretary, Rt Hon Sir Stafford Cripps MP, opened the floodgates, with the Good Ship Windrush sailing into the UK with a full passenger list of Jamaican immigrants. Come the day of reckoning, that man has a lot of explaining to do!
Edited by Norm Deplume, May 25 2013, 12:14 PM.
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caissier
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Norm ..... I do sympathise with you in some ways. I've just been looking at old film of the East End .... old London, old England .... and I mourn it for all its faults. The world is changing though. It's not just Muslims or other single groups. I had an involvement with some Greeks a while ago and it dawned on me just how deeply ingrained the ways of other so-called cultures can be, in their case, to their serious harm ...... but they would not do anything about it. It was the same with some Polish people I knew. It's hopeless to take a Canute-like attitude. It's best, surely, to manage change, however difficult and painful, and make the best of it. It's going to happen anyway.

..... and isn't it the truth that this has been, over the centuries, an immigrant nation? There will be stresses but eventually they will work themselves out somehow.
Edited by caissier, May 25 2013, 12:39 PM.
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Norm Deplume
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Mass immigration of all creeds and races into this country is anathema to me. I am not too happy with the eastern Europeans whom have invaded these shores over recent times but at least with them, although there are aisles of strange food in the supermarkets and lots of foreign tongues, they do not try to foist their religion or their way of life upon us, they are quite happy to agree with our rule of law, unlike that monster in the video who stated that he would only obey our laws if they were Sharia.

I think it was US President Harry Truman who said, and I quote, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"
Edited by Norm Deplume, May 25 2013, 03:25 PM.
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caissier
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Norm Deplume
May 25 2013, 03:22 PM
...... foist their religion or their way of life .......
I've had more trouble from Scientologists, Jehova Witnesses and Christian Scientists!
Edited by caissier, May 25 2013, 03:39 PM.
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Lurkalot

caissier
May 25 2013, 03:37 PM
I've had more trouble from Scientologists, Jehova Witnesses and Christian Scientists!
with respect to norm's views, we do get alot of foriegn menus thrown through our letter boxes! <laugh>
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caissier
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<ok> .... and I do eat far too much Tescos Chicken Tikka Masala <mmmmm>
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Lurkalot

meet a muslim ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4U1dWtmHBM

.. and then we get a racist soldier at the end saying he killed muslims! <totallyinfuriated>
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The_Bush_Doctor
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I do not subscribe to the point of view and I utterly reject the notion that this kind of barbaric murder can be justified as a response to foreign policy. That foreign policy (for every single fault in it) does not say “let’s go and kill Muslims”. After all Muslims kill more Muslims than anyone else and by the same token suffer most from Islamic terrorism than anyone. Syria, Pakistan, Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan........................ the list is endless.

But when one shouts “Allah Hu Akbar” whilst attempting to behead someone, in any street let alone a street in Woolwich, is abhorrent. There is no two ways about that. Nothing can justify such a backward barbaric act. NOTHING

Furthermore, I would like to see Muslims out on the street in large numbers denouncing this kind of barbarism as "not in their name”. I would trust that a lot more than the mealy mouthed imams making damage limitation statements when some amongst them secretly applaud such events as those in Woolwich and some even encourage it.

IMO the BBC should not be giving media oxygen to Islamist crackpots like Anjem Chowdry on the box.

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The_Bush_Doctor
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Lurkalot
May 25 2013, 08:44 PM
meet a muslim ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4U1dWtmHBM

.. and then we get a racist soldier at the end saying he killed muslims! <totallyinfuriated>
Just a stunt.
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Mobson
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The_Bush_Doctor
May 26 2013, 09:50 PM
IMO the BBC should not be giving media oxygen to Islamist crackpots like Anjem Chowdry on the box.
Are you referring to last Thursday's Newsnight which was completely devoted to analysis and discussion on the Woolwich murder, conducted by Kirsty Wark, where he appeared in a pre-recorded interview with Shams Adduha Muhammad, Imam and director of Ebrahim College, and Julie Siddiqui, executive director of the Islamic Society of Britain?

Bizarrely, I think it may have helped seeing him on our screens at this time. Choudary was born in Britain and went, ironically, to Mulgrave Primary School. It is beside the road where soldier, Lee Rigby, was murdered....

The programme must have given people who may not necessarily have been totally aware of his type of preaching and teaching, more insight into his brand of extremism... e.g. al-Muhajiroun, the extremist group founded by Choudary and the exiled preacher Omar Bakri Mohammed, who now lives in Lebanon, which is now banned in this country..it also showed film of one of the killers behind him at a rally ratifying a link between them, and ultimately his views showed once again just what a dangerous extremist he clearly still is, which may make the authorities consider placing him under a new terror control order.

The pre-recorded interview: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22650053

Newsnight: 23.05.13 http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01sl8rh/Newsnight_23_05_2013/
Edited by Mobson, May 27 2013, 04:20 AM.
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Mobson
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Criticism of MI5 regarding knowledge of the two murderers of Lee Rigby last week is gathering pace...Teresa May is saying that there are lessons to learn from this and that maybe powers are needed to monitor Internet action and intercept posts of people under suspicion....don't they do that already via the ISP's?
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Norm Deplume
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Why do those who are, alegedly, running this country, always pussyfoot around with words like "Asians" and "ethnics", very rarely call these perpertators of evil what they really are... MUSLIMS?

Are they frightened to use the word "MUSLIM" in case of any kickbacks from the PC and race relations brigades?
Edited by Norm Deplume, May 27 2013, 11:15 AM.
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Lurkalot

Norm Deplume
May 27 2013, 10:25 AM
Why do those who are, alegedly, running this country, always pussyfoot around with words like "Asians" and "ethnics", very rarely call these perpertators of evil what they really are... MUSLIMS?

Are they frightened to use the word "MUSLIM" in case of any kickbacks from the PC and race relations brigades?
I wish the EDL et al would have the intelligence to differentiate between different races and religions rather than group everyone under muslims and attack them! <doh>
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Norm Deplume
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I don't think that they do Lurkie.Their main target is nearly always of an islamic kind.
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Lurkalot

Norm Deplume
May 27 2013, 05:52 PM
I don't think that they do Lurkie.Their main target is nearly always of an islamic kind.
it's debateable if EDL think! Evidence of a few incidents where other ethnic groups are targetted on assumption they are muslims. I accept the target is islamic but sikhs and hindus are targetted in error! I hope this makes sense? <erm>
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Norm Deplume
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I see what you mean.
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madfor4

Norm Deplume
May 24 2013, 10:23 AM
I am not quite sure as to how to put this withouit seeming to be racist but isn't it time for Muslim communities throughout the country to account for the radicals within their midst?
The vast majority of them, allegedly, abhor the atrocities as much as we indiginous folk do. That being the case,why do they not sort the baddies out and give all the info that they have to the security services?
As in any group of people, we all know who we can trust and who we can't, so if the British Muslims are as British as they would have us believe, then let them play the white man and report the radicals before any more atrocities are carried out.
It's not just 'radicals'.....

Closed communities, of any kind, (Maycee's post about NI) are loyal to 'their own' rather than the wider world.
Does anyone seriously believe that the 'grooming/prostituting' young white girls (Rochdale, etc.) was a closed secret within the Muslim community? Especially as the girls were 'traded' among Muslims across the country.

However, complaints about the 'Windrush' etc. tend to ignore the fact that those who came were needed to keep the NHS/transport systems operating and that many of the initial immigrants were those who, before coming to the UK, had been members of the British/Empire armed forces....

"Welcome to die for the country but not welcome to live in the country" is not my idea of a civilised society!
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caissier
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There are bound to be tensions between groups with distinctly different ways of life and behaviours but, (as a corrective) ..... I knew two Asian female teachers in my teaching time. One was the funniest of people I have ever met with the most extreme tongue in cheek sense of humour and quite scatty. When we had an Offsted inspection and her class was being observed I hid in a large cupboard off the classroom and, pretending to get things and trying not to laugh, she would look in to be reminded of the various essential things to tick off ("Mention health and safety ... " "Oh yes .... ) "Now I want you to be very careful when you ..... " . The other one was the sweetest, nicest, warmest, kindest person you could ever wish to meet. She had a baby just as I left and I heard that shortly afterwards she was in a car accident with the baby in the front seat and the baby died. Her name is Jassy. She might have caused the accident. There were two or three Asian students and they were real characters, especially the girls. What people are like is all that matters as far as I'm concerned. So-called Asians are real people.

I also know a Polish man in his 90s. He was caught up in the Russian invasion of Poland in 1939. He was taken off to camp in the Ukraine and told he'd die there. Then, In 1942 a truck appeared and a British officer jumped out. "What ho!" He'd come looking for volunteers for the British Army. He was taken off to a camp on the shores of the Red Sea to regain his health and strength and then went off to fight in Italy. He's very fit and rides around on a mountain bike. He is very right-wing - mostly due to anti-communist feelings - and does not think immigrants should be allowed in the country ..... <whistles>
Edited by caissier, May 30 2013, 10:45 AM.
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rumbaba
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It's interesting, Caissier, when you see people as individuals, rather than part of some group. When I was an articled clerk for a firm of chartered accountants, 30 odd years ago, one of my contemporaries was a Sikh guy, who wore a turban. It was strange when we would go for a beer in one of the pubs around Borough High Street where we worked and I wondered 'what are they looking at?' because I no longer noticed the headgear or the fact that he was 'Asian' (actually, he was from Gravesend: being Scottish and recently arrived in London, I suppose I was more of a foreigner).
Edited by rumbaba, May 30 2013, 10:53 AM.
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Norm Deplume
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The thread here is about Muslims, many of whom are not Asians. I have no grief with Indians, Chinese, Malayans, Japanese and Asians in general.
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madfor4

I note the idiot Hague will be supplying Syrian rebels, some of whom are radical British Muslims, with sophisticated weapons.
I trust he won't be too surprised if, on their return, they use their skills to continue their role as 'freedom fighters'....
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Lurkalot

Norm Deplume
May 30 2013, 11:26 AM
The thread here is about Muslims, many of whom are not Asians. I have no grief with Indians, Chinese, Malayans, Japanese and Asians in general.

Norm, in your post #16 you stated:

Quote:
 
I have said and written so often that the purpose of ALL Muslims is to dominate the world and indeed this is slowly and surely happening under our very noses. When the word comes from the 'Imam in Chief' to finalise this domination, I wonder just how "BRITISH", British Muslims will be. Will their affinities be to the UK their adopted country, or will Allah have their vote?

I know what I think the outcome will be. Do You?


Please note just as Christainity is a world religion so is Islam and Islam and there are followers of islam in India, Malaysia and I can safely also say China and Japan too as i know some there too. So do you have a grief with Muslims from those countries?
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Norm Deplume
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No need to get pedantic Lurk, I am fully aware that most nations have a Muslim content but you know exactly what I mean.
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Lurkalot

Norm Deplume
Jun 2 2013, 10:49 AM
No need to get pedantic Lurk, I am fully aware that most nations have a Muslim content but you know exactly what I mean.
not really! your labelling is incorrect as is that of the far right groups who attack other communities by their own ignorance!
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May-Cee

I take your point, madfor4, about "closed communities".

But I think I indicated that (for me) it was more a case of "peer pressure" and downright "fear"; rather than "loyalty".

I don't reject my whole community; but a lot of things that were done in "our" name.

But, as I said, the things I don't like... I don't dare speak up about...
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Lurkalot

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/29/britain-wars-terror-islamophobia

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Eight years on, nothing has been learned. In the week since a British soldier was horrifically stabbed to death by London jihadists on the streets of Woolwich, it's July 2005 all over again. David Cameron immediately rushed to set up a task force and vowed to ban "hate clerics". Now the home secretary wants to outlaw "nonviolent extremist" organisations, censor broadcasters and websites and revive plans to put the whole country's phone and web records under surveillance.
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