| Welcome to Refia. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| It must be a delusion: thoughts | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 5 2008, 09:34 PM (1,833 Views) | |
| jules14 | Nov 5 2008, 09:34 PM Post #1 |
![]()
(Wo)man on a Mission
|
You know how some people are so deluded that they think their cheating, irresponsible, selfish lovers are wonderful? Or think their killer dogs are friendly? I seem to be going through something similar now, except itīs about the Lord of the Rings movies. I know the bad things PJ did: I can recite them backwards and forwards. And I realize the guy was wrong to do them. But for some reason, I canīt get mad about them, because I canīt stop loving the films. And get this: every time somebody criticizes them, I feel stricken, almost hurt. The thing is, this is not my normal attitude towards a movie adaptation of a book. Normally, Iīm more unbiased, or if Iīm biased at all, itīs toward the book. And other movies Iīve seen that deviated really far from the bookīs storyline--the 1970s Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, The Secret of Nimh, Harriet the Spy, Matilda--have always disappointed and at points outraged me. So why is Lord of the Rings so different for me? More to the point, how can I enjoy Tolkienīs legendarium and still love those films? It seems an unfortunate pattern on the web that those who still love the movies either have never read the books or are so engrossed by the actors they donīt care about anything else, whereas those who have read "The Silmarillion" and the "Unfinished Tales" are universal in ranting and raving about how bad the films really were. In short, my peculiar obsession with PJīs films seems to defy logic as well as my natural feelings. Thatīs why I think Iīm deluded. Maybe I just need to be beaten over the head with a copy of the "Lord of the Rings" book a few times. |
| |
![]() |
|
| Siany-T | Nov 5 2008, 10:28 PM Post #2 |
|
King of Nothing
|
Or maybe you just realized you can like both. At least you can recognise what he did wrong in the films but, he did make three good films, it's just they were bad to the book. Maybe that's why. |
|
Merlin: Thank you. Arthur: For what? For lying to my father to save your worthless hide? If you ever put me in that situation again, Merlin, I will clap you irons myself. Merlin, Series 2 David: Oh and John. My TARDIS... mine. Say sorry. John: Sorry. Tonight's the Night: Doctor Who Special Team Demyx - 'cause that is how I roll! | |
![]() |
|
| Refia | Nov 5 2008, 11:01 PM Post #3 |
|
Paying Tribute to the Past
|
I really think Tolkien fanatics need to back off a bit. As good as Tolkien's book was (and I've read it), it is, in my eyes, NOT possible to adapt it literally in a movie. For one, it's too long (The Return of the king extended 4 disc edition already was, what, 3 hours?!). For second, it would be boring. Great as Tolkien's book is, if all was literally adapted, it would make for a rather unexciting movie, if I might be honest. That is why it is totally acceptable for a Tolkien fan to like PJ's films and still like the book as well. Why? Because Jackson made some damn good movies that are CLEARLY Lord of the Rings, yet are very good movie-wise. The way I see it, Jackson is a Tolkien fan like we are. And he made his own interpretation of Lord of the Rings, somewhat. So the movies are not Tolkien's LotR, they are Jackson's LotR. Jackson managed to take Tolkien's book, take its story, and made it into a movie. And hell, that's quite an accomplishment. The changes Jackson did were, for most part, necesary for the movie, or not necesary, but very good for the flow of it. Remember, in the end, these are movies. And movies are build differently than books. And Jackson understood that very well. He knew his changes were not what Tolkien wanted, but they were what his movies wanted. Let's face it. If Jackson had done the Arwen x Aragorn romance like Tolkien did, I honestly wouldn't have cared much. While Arwen instead of Glorfindel might be a bit far-fetched, it served its purpose quite well. I understand that change. And that goes for many of the changes. So, yeah... It's very possible to like Tolkien's book and Jackson's movies side by side. Sure the movies might not be perfect, but I think they are the closest a director will ever get to making a great, terrific movie of Tolkien's book. |
|
[align=center]Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? [/align] | |
![]() |
|
| MackenzieW | Nov 5 2008, 11:26 PM Post #4 |
![]()
Resident Time Lady
|
I'll admit I read most of the books after the movies came out, with only Return of the King being the one book I finished before seeing it in theaters. I thought PJ did a great job of sticking as close to the story Tolkien created--my own complaint was just a lack of Eowyn and Faramir, but the Extended Edition fixed that. I've seen worse book adaptations. American Girl for example, did pretty well at adapting Samantha and Felicity for movies. However, Molly fell completely flat. There was hardly anything from the books or everything was changed. That made me angry. Certain admissions in Samantha and Felicity (the plots of their respective birthday books, for example) I could understand, but too much was left out or changed for Molly. I also blame that on American Girl's decision to focus Molly's "Best Friend" doll on Emily, a British girl who is only in one book. She comes in Happy Birthday, Molly! and leaves at the end. Either way, Tolkien fared much better in PJ's hands than "A Chorus Line" did in Attenborough's. Besides, it's your opinion. Why must others foist theirs on someone else? |
|
You are the music while the music lasts--T.S. Eliot "Stop the damn texting and pick up a book!"--Grandmama, "The Addams Family" (Musical) "Tomorrow will be better for as long as America keeps alive the ideals of freedom and a better life." Walt Disney "I wake in the loneliness of sunrise When the deep purple heaven turns blue And start to pray As I pray each day That Ill hear some word from you I lie in the loneliness of evening Looking out on a silver-flaked sea And ask the moon Oh how soon, how soon Will my love come home to me"--"Loneliness of Evening," Cinderella "Thank you, Lord You have brought us Safe to shore Be our strength and protection ever more. A Thiarna dean trocaire A Chriost dean trocaire A Thiarna dean trocaire A Chriost dean trocaire"--Heartland, as performed by Celtic Thunder I'm writing a novel! A Guide to Fanfiction for Dummies! My Little Corner I'm on Book Country! | |
![]() |
|
| Siany-T | Nov 5 2008, 11:40 PM Post #5 |
|
King of Nothing
|
I agree with you two, PJ tried a task which was very hard and did well. So it wasn't perfect but it couldn't be, if, as Refie said, it was to be interesting. I think LotR fared better in PJs hands than Bakeshi's and it's a better adaptation than Prince Caspian was |
|
Merlin: Thank you. Arthur: For what? For lying to my father to save your worthless hide? If you ever put me in that situation again, Merlin, I will clap you irons myself. Merlin, Series 2 David: Oh and John. My TARDIS... mine. Say sorry. John: Sorry. Tonight's the Night: Doctor Who Special Team Demyx - 'cause that is how I roll! | |
![]() |
|
| Telcontar Rulz | Nov 6 2008, 02:00 AM Post #6 |
|
Rising Again
|
I agree with all the above posts. Peter Jackson might have changed some things, but what he did not change was epic heroic spirit of the entire story. Some of the things in the book would have been a little awkward to put onto film. (sorry, Tom Bombadil fans, but a little man in yellow boots singing songs would not be good for a film.) Besides, as Refie said, there was really too much in the book to put into film. The Extended Edition of RotK was longer than four hours, and the rest were close to four hours. |
|
| |
![]() |
|
| jules14 | Nov 6 2008, 03:06 PM Post #7 |
![]()
(Wo)man on a Mission
|
Well, thank you all. This does make me feel somewhat better. I suppose there are many worse movie adaptations of books, at that (the Chronicles of Narnia, for example), and anyway, I just thought of something else. Christopher Tolkien could have written the screenplay for the movies, but he didnīt even want anything to do with them. Itīs just depressing that most of the people Iīve read online who defend the films are either idiots or fanbrats. |
| |
![]() |
|
| MackenzieW | Nov 6 2008, 11:08 PM Post #8 |
![]()
Resident Time Lady
|
I've heard some idiotic reasons why not to see the Lord of the Rings movie. My favorite came from some lady on the radio who said that moviegoers should boycott "The Two Towers" because it was obviously a reference to the fallen Twin Towers. She was quite indignant and then sputtering when the host informed her that the movie was based on a book written nearly two decades before the Twin Towers were even built. |
|
You are the music while the music lasts--T.S. Eliot "Stop the damn texting and pick up a book!"--Grandmama, "The Addams Family" (Musical) "Tomorrow will be better for as long as America keeps alive the ideals of freedom and a better life." Walt Disney "I wake in the loneliness of sunrise When the deep purple heaven turns blue And start to pray As I pray each day That Ill hear some word from you I lie in the loneliness of evening Looking out on a silver-flaked sea And ask the moon Oh how soon, how soon Will my love come home to me"--"Loneliness of Evening," Cinderella "Thank you, Lord You have brought us Safe to shore Be our strength and protection ever more. A Thiarna dean trocaire A Chriost dean trocaire A Thiarna dean trocaire A Chriost dean trocaire"--Heartland, as performed by Celtic Thunder I'm writing a novel! A Guide to Fanfiction for Dummies! My Little Corner I'm on Book Country! | |
![]() |
|
| jules14 | Nov 7 2008, 12:15 AM Post #9 |
![]()
(Wo)man on a Mission
|
Thatīs actually pretty funny--and sad. Mainly pathetic that anybody can be so ignorant. I just read reviews of "Prince Caspian"--and Iīm glad I never saw it. Apparently so many characters are cut and everyoneīs personalities are changed, and a whole section of the book is not even there, and the added romance between Caspian and Susan is just canon-rape on a scale previously unimagined. The only thing I can compare it to would be an added romance between Gimli and Galadriel! It kind of puts the changes in Lord of the Rings in perspective for me. I mean, things were changed, but not that much. |
| |
![]() |
|
| Siany-T | Nov 7 2008, 01:16 AM Post #10 |
|
King of Nothing
|
Oh ye Prince Caspian made LotR Seem perfect. The romance between Susan and Caspian annoyed me and they added this whole scene where loads of charcters just get massacred because they try to take Miraz's castle. I actually spent half the movie fuming and going 'thats wrong, that's wrong' my mom actually told me to move I was complaining so much. |
|
Merlin: Thank you. Arthur: For what? For lying to my father to save your worthless hide? If you ever put me in that situation again, Merlin, I will clap you irons myself. Merlin, Series 2 David: Oh and John. My TARDIS... mine. Say sorry. John: Sorry. Tonight's the Night: Doctor Who Special Team Demyx - 'cause that is how I roll! | |
![]() |
|
| AraionaDuBois | Nov 7 2008, 02:06 AM Post #11 |
|
Chasing Shadows
|
Being what my history professor dubs 'historical geeks', (I'm going for a History Degree and to make my geeky-ness complete, my major paper this term is on the cultural effect of Doctor Who) I always walk into films with the 'mental checklist' because most films have a sort of historical background that in my book should be correct. Example: 300. I ended up doing a speech on what really happened at Thermopylae because of that film. (Mainly because most people at my Uni thought it was historically accurate... it so was not). Same thing happened with 10,000 BC, Gangs of New York, etc. So naturally when I walked into the cinema to see The Lord of the Rings The Fellowship of Ring for the first time, my mental checklist was going off 'that's not right. What the hell was that about? Did this guy read the book? WTF WAS THAT?!' But when I saw it for the second and third time (okay, and forth) I realised that it actually is a masterpiece. The things that were cut out were the right things to leave out. Tom Bombadil (granted, he is one of my favourite characters) was better off staying in just the book. If anything, these discrepancies might have even made people go read the books just to find out why people were upset. Going into The Two Towers and The Return of the King, I had the immideate reaction to use the mental checklist but I realised it was taking away from my first impression. You only get to see these films for the first time once, and what was I doing? I was being a historical geek! (or in this case, a canon geek). Sitting back and ignoring the canon flaws, I enjoyed The Two Towers and Return of the King so much more than The Fellowship of the Ring. They were fantastic and the memories of the first watch of Return of the King with my mates in the front row that snowy December afternoon (we got about two feet. Schools closed down. Massive blizzard. Do you think that kept us from opening day?) The film and the book are two different creatures, surviving on two different things. A cinematic audience would never understand the book if it were made into a film adaption that perfectly matched. Hell, I'm sure we'd get confused at times! The books will forever be my favourite books (Granted, I'm more of a Silm fan... Yay Sinking of Numenor!) and the films will forever be on my top list. They were a cinematic masterpiece. I don't think it would even be fair to compare the two even. |
|
Smashed down the light. I will not rest till I'm king. Valinor's empty now. allied the elves and men they shall be damned. A Dark Passage, Blind Guardian. Now truly I am king of the world. Master of fate Damned shall thy house be. Thou shall not question my power Nor shall thou defy me further. The Steadfast, Blind Guardian. | |
![]() |
|
| jules14 | Nov 8 2008, 01:14 AM Post #12 |
![]()
(Wo)man on a Mission
|
Maybe it wouldnīt be fair to compare the two. Iīm leaning more towards that view, I admit. After all, I donīt mind most of the changes, except the portrayals of Gimli and Denethor (interestingly, not so much Faramir), which leave a really bad taste in my mouth. Maybe it wouldnīt be so bad if Suethors didnīt take the portrayals to extremes. Did anybody read the rumors of what Miramax and the early scriptwriters wanted to put in the movies, before Jackson came to his senses and took the project to New Line instead? Arwen at Helmīs Deep would have been just the tip of the iceberg. I remember reading about a planned nude bathing scene with Arwen and Aragorn, Aragorn sleeping with Eowyn, and a truly atrocious script with lines like, "Oh, you...Man!" and "Pick on somebody yer own size, ye overstuffed buzzard!" and "Blast! Why did the Valar send me here in this old manīs body?" I mean, can you imagine? I immediately thought of these planned horrors as soon as I read about "Prince Caspian". |
| |
![]() |
|
| MackenzieW | Nov 8 2008, 02:24 AM Post #13 |
![]()
Resident Time Lady
|
If that would've happened...I could just see the Aragorn/Eowyn shippers intensifying against canon lovers by saying they were using the movie canon. Ugh. That makes your Walt Disney version of Lord of the Rings look more canonical. |
|
You are the music while the music lasts--T.S. Eliot "Stop the damn texting and pick up a book!"--Grandmama, "The Addams Family" (Musical) "Tomorrow will be better for as long as America keeps alive the ideals of freedom and a better life." Walt Disney "I wake in the loneliness of sunrise When the deep purple heaven turns blue And start to pray As I pray each day That Ill hear some word from you I lie in the loneliness of evening Looking out on a silver-flaked sea And ask the moon Oh how soon, how soon Will my love come home to me"--"Loneliness of Evening," Cinderella "Thank you, Lord You have brought us Safe to shore Be our strength and protection ever more. A Thiarna dean trocaire A Chriost dean trocaire A Thiarna dean trocaire A Chriost dean trocaire"--Heartland, as performed by Celtic Thunder I'm writing a novel! A Guide to Fanfiction for Dummies! My Little Corner I'm on Book Country! | |
![]() |
|
| Telcontar Rulz | Nov 8 2008, 04:33 AM Post #14 |
|
Rising Again
|
That sounds like Lord of the Rings: Monty Python. |
|
| |
![]() |
|
| jules14 | Nov 8 2008, 04:50 AM Post #15 |
![]()
(Wo)man on a Mission
|
Does anybody know of any Tolkien scholars who liked the films? |
| |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
|
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Lord of the Rings - General Discussion · Next Topic » |









1:46 AM Jul 11