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Happy New Year
Topic Started: Oct 4 2005, 12:56 AM (1,477 Views)
Argetlam

Happy New year to all i will be spending the first dsay in temple it is sun down so i thought i mite say ok
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Spyman8
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Yes, Happy Rosh Hashanah, too bad the school are to biased to actually give the day off in school.
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Argetlam

my schol did and i go to public school
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Charlemagne Of Aachen
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Yes Happy Rosh Hashanah to all!!! B)
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stoicblitzer
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yea woo hoo. :huh:
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galahad of jerusalem
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Happy New Year!
Yesua Hamashiach
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Spyman8
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Mazel Tov? :huh: Edit. After research why would be celebrating Jesus, if in our religion, we don't think he was the messiah. This is New Years, Esser of Tishri, we are celebrating the head of the year, Doesn't Yeshua Hamashiach refer to Yom Kippur and the Jews who believe in Jesus, yet don't want to call themselves Christians for some odd reason?
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Bedivere of Neustia
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spy u know deep down in your heart your a jew for jesus just admit it.
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Argetlam

i personally ama jew for jesus however i am not christian because there are some parts of the christian faith i dont believe in however i do believe jesus was messiah here spy look here
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Spyman8
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I know that Jews for Jesus Exist. I think it is hilarious that they do. One of the main points of Judaism is that the messiah has not come yet. Those people are the most misguided and need help. Why can't they call themselves Christians, it would be much better for us all.
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galahad of jerusalem
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Yeshua was jew. :D
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Argetlam

because there are some points of the catholic religion that jews dont belive in, for ecxample i dont belive in when ur born u need to be forgiven for sin etc
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galahad of jerusalem
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Cador.....here is a link to your website you provided concerning this...

Quote:
 
because there are some points of the catholic religion that jews dont belive in, for ecxample i dont belive in when ur born u need to be forgiven for sin etc


http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/9_8/sin

I am not Catholic, but it appears this group you identify with, who I support, would have a different view than you do on this issue. :)

God bless.
Galahad
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Argetlam

i believe in sin i just dont believe in original sin in other words that something so innocent as a baby has sinned idk its just a little weird to me
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galahad of jerusalem
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Yea, i hear ye...im just saying Jews for Jesus would disagree with you...to them, that is a Major Doctine. But im not here to preach. :D
God Bless
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Argetlam

idk my sense of religion is all $&@#*@ up to begin with i dont believe in hell or i kind of do i believe that what we have now is hell and we have to pass teh thests thats god gives us in order to ascend to heaven. that being said i dont really have a clear veiw of what err lets say the messiah is i think that yes at one point there may have bene a messiah however each and everyone of us has a kind of peice of messiah a litlte bit of knowledge we can spread about god

furthermore about sins is i jsut dont think that lust should be a sin sex is completely natural or why would god have given it to us if its so bad. i know i know free will and all that crud i personally believe that we can influence our outcome not exactly liek free will i think we have limited control. if god wants us hegets us. when i figure out more to my spiriual zen ill post

*** Edit by Pellinore: Watch your language Cador! Thanks. ***
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Lamorak de Galis
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I do not believe in God or any other divine being behond the natural flow of energy through all living things.
I would never follow a god that demanded i worship him or be punished by eternal suffering. If a god was truely divine and omnipitent would he really be bothered if i worshipped him or not? Even if it was true, why worship a god that lets evil run rife across the globe, and if he has no power over evil then he can't be much of a god eh?

"Oh thankyou god, thankyou for this war ravaged, disease ridden, currupted world that we live in". "No please don't burn me for eternity you are the best i promise, you are amazing and i worship you"

Take this, I live my life trying my utter best to do the right thing and helping all that ask me. I believe in complete equality despite your race sexuality or religion. I do not eat animals and recycle my waste. I do all this because i believe it is right. I do not need the alterean motive that i might burn for eternity if i don't.
But all this said, your god will make me suffer in hell for eternity beacause i didn't worship him yet a 'sinner' that repents near the end of his life and worships god enjoys the company of angels.
Such a god does not appeal to me.

Just remember; more death, war, disease, curruption and famine has been caused by religion than any other force on this planet.

Sorry if this is subversive i mean no offence, Insane_Marauder
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Lamorak de Galis
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Gah! :o

I meant Page_Marauder of course.... Old habits die hard.
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Argetlam

wow :o :blink:
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Pete of Yorkshire
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exacly i agree fully with maradur not on the meat eating front im not a hippie :P but as far as a "all powerful beins" i think its stupid and that most religions where used to control the masses and used manipulated to there own ends. and it saddens me to see these people who have blind faith becuase a book tells them too whats that about. people who dont have there own oppinions in life and about issues and just totally dismiss arguments as evil and wrong.

my 2 pence here sorry if i have offended but this is the way i feel about "religion" the only religion i would accept is buddism as it is a philsiphy and a choice and a way of life.
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Argetlam

my apologies pellinore i had no clue
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Viktor of Astaroth
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(Viktor walks in to the room, with his huge cross on his back)(*he's tired)

(He notices everyone is arguing and chit-chattering about something)(He finds a seat next to Galahad, the cross weights too much)

Viktor says: Phew.!, thats one of a big lotta cross right there, can you imagine Galahad, me walking the whole day with this thing on my back.?
(*Galahad doesnt pay attention, he's into too deep in the arguement)

Viktor responds: Sheesh, wats all this pplz talking about...hmmm, oh religion.!
(*He raises his hand)...You guys talking 'bout them religions again arent you?...man no offence my friends, but there's not such thing as an "divine" power or an "omnipotent" creator...its all a whole curtain of schemes from the ones that oppress us..the one's with the "money" and "means" lets say...just to get more money from Us...the "plebeians" <_<

-How you ever asked yourselves, why do i have to worship "someone". Religion is the mean of "fanatism". You worship, what your parents had worship..and it has been like that for hundred of years. It is time for you to question..and it is the time for you to get the answers. Ask your religious leaders, and they will have mute words to say in the end..!

Jesus, did the right thing, he helped ppl, and acted the way he felt it was the right thing to do...he just got in the way of "bastards" that killed him, only to later on worship him.!..How ironical its that.!!

P.D.:
1. Enough chit-chattering, you dont beleive me, do some research about it my friends...religion is another way of controlling the masses as a whole. Its convinient you see, We get this certain religion to think something wrong about another certain one...and Boom!! We have World Wars :unsure: .

2. As long as the "State" (countries), are backed up by the church, they should call onto a raise of arms with no problem.

3. Maybe jesus did really lived, and the ppl that take into account his actions loved him for that...Why? because he was defying the state, he was standing up for wat was right...he felt the pain his ppl felt..and ROme felt threaten by it. It was later on, after his death,..that a "dacaying" ROme saught an opportunity to bring the masses and to control as a power, "a religious power"....They made the image, actions, and ways of jesus..that of a being that was "devine". After all, the scriptures about him were more than 300 years after his death

4. the state of rome, figured...lets destroy those writtings that made jesus, up to that time, a human being...the ones that made him and described him as just another preacher of good deeds. And now, lets keep and "make" the ones that best suits "Us" (Roman catholic church) as potential religion all over "our" world, well beleive or not, it was done. The people that were and walked this earth with jesus, just saw him as a good person...a humble one. But all that change until, the Roman Catholic church took over...what they did, they just seized the best opportunity they had, to keep "rome" as voice to be reckon be with for the next millenia.

5. Its up until today that they keep those secrets, from their "faithful" flock. Go ahead.!! question them about it.!! ask them.!! where's all that money you keep for yorselfs.? or how come you preach of "love" and "honour" when you have "rooms and rooms" full of money and gold, enough that amount is, that they coould feed africa for year to come, Go ahead ask them.!, ask all of those that preach to be leaders of their faith when they had raped kids and have corrupted ppl with money to save themselves.

Now i ask you, are these the leaders, that "we" must admire, from a god that expects us to worship him with love and devotion.? uh? answer me that.!
Religion, no matter which one has been...are just another excuse for mass anhilation and total destruction.
How much longer is this gonna go.?, after all this has been the biggest "lie", the perfect scheme that has been kept for over a 1000 years. How many more Years until ppl open their eyes.!?

P.D: ask those leaders, of which ppl think are "saints"...ask them. They wont say a single word.! because they are just as ignorant as those who had preceded them.

-If you do beleive in something, beleive in yourselves..!! beleive you can ahieve much more..beleive you can do what's right without having someone reminding you that there's a "being" watching you. Dont do things as if you are to be punished, do them because you feel its right, act the way jesus had acted...after all, he was just as human as all of us. But he had a great virtue.."patience", patience is all you need. Do all you need to do, but think of others too, act in the "right way", and all of your life will be fine.

thanks,
Only the words of:
Page_Viktor
"the Mad Saint"
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Lamorak de Galis
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Some very fine words there Vik, especially the last paragraph. You should try to keep your posts shorter though becuase some people won't read them and every now and then you come out with some gold dust.

Quote:
 
the only religion i would accept is buddism as it is a philsiphy and a choice and a way of life.


Lol, i thought you said you weren't a hippy? ;) :lol:
o/j and i completely agree with you mate.

btw, just because i don't eat meat doesn't mean i am a hippy. If you ran in to me after the pub on a friday night you wouldn't call me a hippy. :angry:
Life has dealt me too many cruel blows for me to be too positive about it. :)

Cador, why the reaction, why the appology? I would be interested in hearing your repost mate?

Page_Marauder
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Viktor of Astaroth
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Thanks Maraudr.! :lol: ...concerning the issue about that it was too long...you should had seen it the first time i wrote it...now that was a mess, paragraph piled onto another.. <_< .

Much of this being "gold dust", yeah if anyone cares to read it and keep it in heart, yea. Those were just the humble thoughts of one of the millions that has been helping ppl see "outside" the box.
I feel of myself, as an good orator (*a messy one ;) ), but a good one. A genious in the making :P , they have much knowledge, but they are just as messy...

But once you read it throughly, it lets think twice about wat you do, doesnt it.? I just hope ppl do take kindly adn with good heart this words :) . They are only, and specifically for those who want to open their eyes. B)

"...You dont need any worst enemy than "yourself"...but it is You who are your best friend.."

Page_Viktor
"the Mad Saint"
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Argetlam

Quote:
 
1. Enough chit-chattering, you dont beleive me, do some research about it my friends...religion is another way of controlling the masses as a whole. Its convinient you see, We get this certain religion to think something wrong about another certain one...and Boom!! We have World Wars  .



you claim that religion is only a nother way of controlling the masses but before masses there was religoin with cave ppl there was religion they needed it to believe in osmething greater then themselves, because if there is nothing but us what do we do when we die lay and rot in that box?


Now victor i do have to admit u said some pretty intelligent stuff there that i do belive however all though at times religion has been use dto manipulate the masses it has been used by the masses to better themselves to say this is how i got here this is what lies beyond, because in the end noone can actually say jeez when i die i will lay and rot in some box and not even be here typing about that now is giveing me the chills i personally dont even knwo what i believe.

1) i know im jewish
2) i have osme weird beliefs

but you know what religion says also Viktor that god gave us free will so we can choose to follow or not and as long as we use that free will we can be whatever we want to be you claim religoin was being used to manipulate but if it was it was only for a time when men were leaderless although that doesnt justify it. however religoin ahs been the thing that has kept most ppl sane adn driven some to madness with so imany answers yet many more questions.


Quote:
 
5. Its up until today that they keep those secrets, from their "faithful" flock. Go ahead.!! question them about it.!! ask them.!! where's all that money you keep for yorselfs.? or how come you preach of "love" and "honour" when you have "rooms and rooms" full of money and gold, enough that amount is, that they coould feed africa for year to come, Go ahead ask them.!, ask all of those that preach to be leaders of their faith when they had raped kids and have corrupted ppl with money to save themselves.



The gold of the Catholic church does go to a lot of charity however it also goes to paying preists keeping preists in houses/cloisters it goes to the upkeep of a fairly large religion, yes sure they can go ahead and give it to africa to feed them all for years but in the end it would meen no church and that would leave millioons perhaps close to a billion with no faith the Roman Church would be destroyed o no wait i mean no institution for worhsip which is something most ppl in most religoins need so now not only would that ruin the church it would cause such strife in the people that lord knows what would happen. you talk of molesters and rapists, those people deserve the worst punishment god can give them, and of course there were some but not ALL of the church is child molesters and rapists no not at all there were some and as always the media focused on those few however when you look at the church as a whole it is not bad people the few hu raped and molested are everywhere just look at Bill clinton, and JFK they were unloyal to their wives so are all presidents adulterous? look at old kings and queens of britian they would intermarry with in family, so is all britian now born of incest? the answer is no and you knwo that because of bad ppl u cant judge a whole



anyways thats my veiw on this


Signed,
Cador Of Cornwall
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Bedivere of Neustia
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Cador_of_Cornwall,Oct 10 2005
12:43 AM
The gold of the Catholic church does go to a lot of charity however it also goes to paying preists keeping preists in houses/cloisters it goes to the upkeep of a fairly large religion, yes sure they can go ahead and give it to africa to feed them all for years but in the end it would meen no church and that would leave millioons perhaps close to a billion with no faith the Roman Church would be destroyed o no wait i mean no institution for worhsip which is something most ppl in most religoins need so now not only would that ruin the church it would cause such strife in the people that lord knows what would happen.

and this does not limit the churches monetarty funds. The church (not only the roman catholic church but practically all demoinations of christian and jewish faiths) can be looked at with two main veiws.

The first of which is the religion a message displayed to the populace and a belief shared by thousands of people. Something that people look up to and but htere time and money into supporting.

And the second is two look at the church as a corperation. The churchs spend millions annually to convert build and grow as a whole.

Well many people see this aspect of the church as a "bad thing" it is in my opinion not a "bad thing". These churches are growing so that they can spread the beliefs that they believe and support. Looking at my particular church the Presbyterian Church U.S.A. gives over half of its annual income to charities orginizations and funds and still manages a healthy growth. The next year more money will be donated and so on and so on until that growth stops. well some churches take it to the extrem like the morman church baptising dea holocost jews many churchs keep it within reasonable limits.

Well we presbyterians are known for our "lets stop think and form a commity about this" attitude it all boils down to belief and if this belief is able to help support not only people within its faith but people outside of it then i am willing to suppoort it.

i will now give a totaly cliche example. An example stemming from the church of a humble and caring being who did not brainwash, convert intentionaly, or help the catholic church monetarly, mother teresa. She spent her entier life helping and caring for people she didnt know. Her life was lived in poverty and mission. that is what our world needs and if that stems from religion of any sort than i personaly can not say that religion is a bad, cruel, controling or coniving thing.

*i had to edit out out about half of this cause it was way to long sry if it seems speratic and pointless I had to cut out alot*
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Spyman8
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Yes, but unlike the Catholic, you never see the Jewish faith trying to convert people. You might see a crazy person, but never a whole organization out converting people. I think that's the problem with some religions. They should let the people come to their religion if they believe in their ordeals, instead of going around trying to convert the masses.
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Lamorak de Galis
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Quote:
 
noone can actually say jeez when i die i will lay and rot in some box and not even be here typing about that now is giveing me the chills i personally dont even knwo what i believe.


One of the main reasons people believe in religion is their fear of death. Humans cannot except that they are here for no other reason than to eat and reproduce. We live on a stable, warm and wet world in a non hazardous sector of the galaxy, we have a large gas giant called Jupiter just behond us that sucks up most of the incoming asteroids. These circumstances are perfect for the evolution of sentient life. That is why you are here, like mould gathering in a humid bathroom, not some divine presence. Sorry if this disturbs you but, alas, it is true.

Come, please, ask yourselves the questions. Are there only humans in heaven, no animals? If so then when did the first human go to heaven? The first homoerectus? The first homosapien? What part of our evolution would qualify heaven? It took tens of thousands of years to evolve in to what you are now, where does the distinction lie?
All systems throughout time and space work in cycles, birth, life and death. From the tiniest atom to the largest sun. The whole movement of the galaxy and the universe it's self follow this simple law. Do you really think that heaven would be the only exception? There is no 'dead-ends', it does not make any sense. It suggests that once there was no-one in heaven and now there are countless billions.
For people of all religions to assume we are alone in the universe and the earth is the centre of everything where gods chosen species, modelled in his own image, live forever in glowing halls, is quite frankly, arrogent behond all reason.

Please, do not just scan over this, read it. Please.....

Page_Marauder
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galahad of jerusalem
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MAr,

Here is the Thing.....you have your faith and I have mine. By you acting like you "know it all and what I believe is arragent" is arragance :P

There are 2 differnt kinds of faith.....one is faith based on fact and the other is blind faith. Like when you pass through an intersection...you have faith that noone will hit you becUSE you have seen many people do it safely over the years as well as you doing it safely. That would be different from someone jumping off a ledge to a hill with out seeing whats on the other side...that would be blind faith.

The Christian religion is one based on facts...added up makes a pretty darn good case to base one's faith one. It's fine if you want to believe what ever you want, but you may be wrong my friend. So pls go a little light on the accusations. I may be wrong too btw, but I have alot a reason why I believe what I believe. Do you have a reason to believe what you believe? If so, please share what that is? What empircal evidence do you have for for faith?

Anyways, ive been reading all this and I like the exchange of ideas...but when yuo start calling me arragant, I need to chime in. I follow Jesus. If I am wrong, I have yet to see any evidence to support it.

Ofc, us dissagreeing on these matters does not make us any other than m8's still, but if tyou want to debate, feel free to share real facts and reasoning behind your beliefs, ill listen to it. Bring it on! :D
Respecfully
Galahad
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Bedivere of Neustia
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Marauder,Oct 10 2005
03:30 PM
One of the main reasons people believe in religion is their fear of death. Humans cannot except that they are here for no other reason than to eat and reproduce.

I can not believe that our only xistence upon this world is to pass on our gene. Its the question that we have all heard and pondered at least once in our lives. What is the meaning of life?

I personally believe that we are here to do more that pass on our gene. No one can say exactly what we are here for but it is my opinon is that each one of us is here to leave our own personal imprint. Not procreation but an idea, a token anything. It could be so simply as a childhood paintign filed away that a grandchild discovers in that attick, or the energy you have consumed fueling your car or house that impacks the enviornment. Every single one of us has an impring postive, negative, big, small, expensive or cheap each oneof us when we pass on will leave a mark.
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galahad of jerusalem
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Here are some things to considr about Jesus.

HE claimed to be God in John 8:58.

His disciples called him God. "My Lord and My God."

All other Religious leaders in history said I will show you the way....Jesus said "I am the Way."

Jesus rose from the dead.

Jesus raised others from the dead.

Jesus preformed many miricles in front of the masses.

Jesus forgave sins. (only God can do that)

Jesus fullfilled Prophocey that were outside of his control...as well as many that were within his control. Here is an example...

Quote:
 
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.


That was written 1000 years b4 Jesus was born and talks about his crucifxion. I could show alot more.

Quote:
 
The Mathematical Odds of Jesus Fulfilling Prophecy

      "The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, ‘we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10 to the 17th Power." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 10 to the 17th power silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man."
      Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "we find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10to the 157th power, or 1 in 10,00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 000,000,000."

      (This information was taken from the book Evidence that Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell.)

      The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 10 to the 79th power. It should be quite evident that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies by accident. He was who He said He was: the only way (John 14:6).


So, with the science of probabilty we can safely assume Jesus is God. Ill end here only to await some feed back and continue on.

'Respecfully
galahad
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Lamorak de Galis
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Quote:
 
Sorry if this is subversive i mean no offence, Insane_Marauder


I meant the human race is arrogent, not any particular faction. I am very sorry if this caused offence Galahad, that is not my intention. I humbly apologise to you and any other that may take offence.

[/QUOTE]Ofc, us dissagreeing on these matters does not make us any other than m8's still, but if tyou want to debate, feel free to share real facts and reasoning behind your beliefs, ill listen to it. Bring it on!
Quote:
 


I have no evidence other than what we know of the universe and the earths history which is somewhat contrary to the bible. But please, i do not wish to argue on this further in case i cause further offence. Let me instead tell you why i feel so strongly, and then perhaps you'll understand where i am coming from.

I was born in to a strict christian home and belive it or not, i even served as a helper in the church (breaking bread and offering wine etc) wearing the long white robe. I am christened and even confirmed at age 13. I have read the bible from cover to cover and went to sunday school throughout my childhood.
I used to have dreams where angels would pull me from danger or lead me through dark fields. (those dreams still haunt me now)
But then alas i grew up, my friend died in a car accident at age 14 and mybrother who was only a year younger than me died when i was 17. My parents split and my mother became ill. All of this while 'sinners' ran easy lives. That kind of thing rocks your faith at that age mate..
Anyway it was then that i asked questions and damn did i need answers. Well... there were far to many questions and not nearly enough answers.
I started to re-evaluate my position on faith. I started looking for myself and finding my own answers. I studied astronomy, quantum physics and philosophy.
Of course with all this i still have no answer but somethings feel wrong to me.

I do not denounce your faith or anybodies, i was merely preaching to you like 'they' once preached to me. I will say no more on this topic..

Sorry,
Page_Marauder
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Caradoc of Mercia
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I always have found religion to be a complete dead lock to debate about, I have literally argued and argued about it all night on far too many occasions, as I have friends who are strongly religious and equally intelligent. It always boils down to a statement of faith though, attempts to construct proofs for religion are inherently circular and so open to interpretation. For example in Galahad's post above, where he referred to prophecies about Jesus being fulfilled. From reading that, I would not come to the same conclusion as he, as a cynic I would always state that prophecies are always vague and very losely interpreted to mean what you wish it to mean in retrospect. I hold the same to be true in regards to such areas as Astrology, which many people also believe in.

As for the use of the "science" of probabilty, this is also flawed in the construction of it. I'm not familar with this particular book, however you cannot simply state a probabilty of one particular event (which in all likelihoods is little more than a guess) and then extrapolate it to 48 events, losely interpret them all to be exactly true and fulfilled, but hold a much stricter interpretation on others for their fulfulment and still describe it as using a scientific methodology.

There are rational arguments over the theory of intelligent design versus evolution, which little ground can be actively made, due to our lack of understanding. However, the theory of evolution does provide an elegant mechanism for which life to evolve in the absence of a designer. The fact that evolution has not been either proven or disproven, merely fitting the facts to some degree, doesn't necessitate the existance of a creator. Likewise, other "unlikely" scenarios like our planet being just the right distance from the sun, and outer planets attracting large bodies that could otherwise hit, can be understood in terms of the weak anthropic principle, namely that things are that they are, since if they were not, we would not be here to observe them.

Fundamentally, I describe myself as a Nihilist as I am governed primarily by logic. If something is a fundamentally statement of faith, then I challenge, and ultimately reject it.
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galahad of jerusalem
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Hey Mar...Firstly, I am saddened by your loss m8. I know that to lose those close to you can be tough...been there myself...trust me.

Please donot take my post as a "im offended " post. I am not. I was just saying that , in light of all our different faiths, lets not name call, lets talk about what we beilieve. thas all. I am not wishing you to stop and I respect your views even though I dun believe them. So pls dun stop the passonate dialog cause of me. ;)

It i interesting that you bring up how your life was tough and hurting and looking around, the "sinners" are having it easy. Whiule I was on vacation, I was reading something from the bible that peaked my intrest and maybe you will relate to it too......now lemme me find it.... ;)

Quote:
 
Truly God is good to Israel,
To such as are pure in heart.
2 But as for me, my feet had almost stumbled;
My steps had nearly slipped.
3 For I was envious of the boastful,
When I saw the prosperity of the wicked.


4 For there are no pangs in their death,
But their strength is firm.
5 They are not in trouble as other men,
Nor are they plagued like other men.
6 Therefore pride serves as their necklace;
Violence covers them like a garment.
7 Their *eyes bulge with abundance;
They have more than heart could wish.
8 They scoff and speak wickedly concerning oppression;
They speak loftily.
9 They set their mouth against the heavens,
And their tongue walks through the earth.


10 Therefore his people return here,
And waters of a full cup are drained by them.
11 And they say, "How does God know?
And is there knowledge in the Most High?"
12 Behold, these are the ungodly,
Who are always at ease;
They increase in riches.
13 Surely I have cleansed my heart in vain,
And washed my hands in innocence.
14 For all day long I have been plagued,
And chastened every morning.


15 If I had said, "I will speak thus,"
Behold, I would have been untrue to the generation of Your children.
16 When I thought how to understand this,
It was too painful for me--
17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God;
Then I understood their end.


18 Surely You set them in slippery places;
You cast them down to destruction.
19 Oh, how they are brought to desolation, as in a moment!
They are utterly consumed with terrors.
20 As a dream when one awakes,
So, Lord, when You awake,
You shall despise their image.


21 Thus my heart was grieved,
And I was vexed in my mind.
22 I was so foolish and ignorant;
I was like a beast before You.
23 Nevertheless I am continually with You;
You hold me by my right hand.
24 You will guide me with Your counsel,
And afterward receive me to glory.


25 Whom have I in heaven but You?
And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You.
26 My flesh and my heart fail;
But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.


27 For indeed, those who are far from You shall perish;
You have destroyed all those who desert You for harlotry.
28 But it is good for me to draw near to God;
I have put my trust in the Lord God,
That I may declare all Your works.


This really spoke to me. Following God was never promised to be easy....just right. Anyway, im not looking for confrontaation, but a good rousing debate is always good.

Respectfully,
Galahad
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galahad of jerusalem
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Hey Cow, lol, you posted while I was posting this. ;)

I thought Nihilists rejected logic. Maybe you can explain it more.

As far as the Prophecies, these are pretty strait forward. Not too complicated...where would be born, how he would die...ect.....
I understand about the vagueness though in some cases of prochecy, but this is different for these, they are plain and simple ones.

Evolution and Intellegent Design(ID) is interesting. I know LIon's a PhD in Evolution so I won't go too deep here.....but the thing with evolution always comes down to defenitions. IT/Creationists belive in "Micro-Evolution" just not Macr-evolution. We agree with Micro jsut not that Micro leads to Macro. That means that we see that there are variations within a species as it adapts to its envirment, that is observable...which falls into the relm of science (observable and repeatable), however they ject that those micro changes would lead to a new species(kind).

The reason ID give is called "Irredusble Complexity"(spelling/typing sucketh and im doing this on memory :D ) . That means that there are fundemental blocks of life/organs that can not have evolved because all the "parts" have to be there in current working form all at the same time for it to operate at its basic level. The cell is used often here as an example.

The cell needs to have all the little organells within it, as well as DNA, to work. The walls have to be semi-permeable to let in and out the right stuff. Some of these cells have flagellem with are complex motors that could not have "evloved". But the bottom line...in a nut shell...is that if one takes away one part of that cell, it's done for. Thos little orgaells in themselves are highly complex as well.

When you look at the complexity of a computer, do you think that there was a random explosion at a computer parts shop, and out of that chaos came a computer? That would be silly. Of course it had a designer. Yet living things are much more complex and we think they didn't?

So anyway, you get the drift. Evolution has issues that one must second guess. Here is Darwins own words ...

Quote:
 
a quote from The Origin of Species(1859):

To suppose that the eye [...] could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.


Quote:
 
Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory."
The Origin of Species (1859) in Chapter 10, On the imperfection of the geologic record
.

There is good reason to question this aND the ID folks are doing just that......making good points ;)

Galahadalot
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