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Republican or Democrat?; Place your Opinion
Tweet Topic Started: Oct 7 2008, 11:23 AM (12,148 Views)
Post #1 Oct 7 2008, 11:23 AM Project.Seeds
Well. Normally the Philosophers Corner is for Scientific talk, But most of it is debating. So this topic is still valid.

Nonetheless: let's get to business.

I want some of your opinions on Republican or Democrat. Personally since republicans our economy is shit. Paying like way too much for all kinds of shit. Which make sense. Republicans make the Rich Richer. Democrats make the Less-Wealthy More Wealthy.

So if you actually work for a living, With your hands, Instead of sitting on your ass with so much money that you have 12 jets because of your little oil companies and shit, You don't want a Republican.

What's your opinions? Do we need a republican to save our economy?
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Post #2 Oct 7 2008, 01:39 PM crimson knight
First of all I would like to suggest that excessive use of curse words severely hurts your argument because it makes you sound like an immature fool. However, to answer your question, it doesn't matter what party becomes president. In fact, the president has very little power over the economy. Regardless, the economy is in a state that is very hard to correct called stagflation. If we try to fix inflation, it makes the unemployment worse and vice versa. Sorry, but it looks like a depression is inevitable soon.
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Post #3 Oct 7 2008, 02:16 PM AuroraMarines
Democrat. We don't need another George Bush.
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Post #4 Oct 7 2008, 02:42 PM RTMX
Republican, because the democrats are asking for too much pork.
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Post #5 Oct 7 2008, 04:54 PM InfernoTsunami
Yeah, strangely enough, our current economic situation isn't really any one parties' fault. If you've actually been delving into it, or you have a really cool AP Government teacher, you'd find that the cause is actually us. We've been wanting more spending and less taxes since the dawn of our government. That has been a huge problem with the economy for years, but it has usually gone in cycles of small recession, small boom, and it has all balanced out. Lately, though, the FDIC and other organizations that are responsible for protecting credit and the overall stability of credit have relaxed regulations. Long story short, the nice cycle of recede-boom was knocked off balance, and we have been spiraling into a recession. Now, both sides have suggested almost the same thing on this issue, but each has a different spin. I honestly don't care about what in the hell anyone says about anything in politics anymore. If you're a hardcore democrat or republican, you're either corrupt or idealistically flawed. Both parties have used petty games to spread propaganda throughout their constituents and opponents alike, and it has basically made a mockery of the system of government first set in place by the founding fathers. I honestly hate our system of government now, if you're a nice guy who wants to use an honest message to get the point across while being fair to your opponent's ideas and party, then you're fucked unless you're opponent decides the same.

I don't listen to either party, I'm much more extreme in my views, I think that our government is now corrupt, inefficient, and overall pointless.

I'm an idealistic socialist/communist. Hate commies? Bite me, then.


P.S. Sorry for the long post, well, not really, without substance to back up a post, it's just internet bullshit, much like politics.
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Post #6 Oct 7 2008, 10:17 PM crimson knight
*Bites Gamenac for the sake of being a smartass*

Anyway, I'd have to agree with Gamenac that our government is definitely corrupt and backwards, but I'm not so sure communism/socialism is the right way to go. From what I've seen, any type of government ends up being corrupt so there's really no way around it. I guess anarchy is an option, but without government we might as well just go back to being animals. In other words, we're doomed.

P.S. Gamenac, I definitely agree with you that Mrs. Ellison is a kickass AP Government teacher. I hope you have as much fun in that class as I did.
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Post #7 Oct 8 2008, 03:13 PM Vlancer
All governments eventually become corrupt because of what can be coined as tyranny of the majority. The way to slow (or take a few steps back in) the progress is to keep minorities with just enough to keep them content and in there place, but not rising them up to far to cause shifts in the structure (revolution or social changes occur then). It should also be noted that the term minority does not resonate with a particular race, gender, religion, etc., but rather with the group who has the smallest say in what the government says or does. In the case of America that could be seen as citizens who are not politically active or technologically (if you assume that our culture right now is one of technology) savvy (or people who don't care about their countries well being if they are doing well: which plays into the: Change: I want more stuff that I don't need or things to be fixed that aren't broken because I can get it despite the ramifications), even though our social system attempts to make it appear as a gender/race/religion issue. You can't stop the cycle realistically as there will always be movement up and down between the levels, and if you do stop then the movement will continue on a smaller level between "sub levels" (think of a pack mates competing for alpha male continuously)

On the notion of parties, it is ironic that both try to appease and match each other so closely and yet claim to be separate that it is now more of an issue of liberal or conservative. However, this labeling is based off of one's ideas and feelings so it is easily subject to change. In fact, all of politics turns that way. There isn't two banks with a river anymore. Just an ocean with everyone on different sides of an island.

Also, much of our government comes from smaller levels, and when it doesn't people complain just like when it does. Basically, don't blame a leader. Rather blame yourself for not doing enough as a citizen.


No government is perfect, and in order to function someone has to be displeased (goes back to minority vs. majority with either one being displeased at any given time about an issue). It should also be noted that Socialism/Communism can not work as it has been proven as a failure (a very costly one to human lives) intellectually, economically, and welfare wise (to name a few) for a culture. Communism or Socialism is an attempt to stop the cycle.


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Post #8 Oct 8 2008, 09:18 PM InfernoTsunami
Actually, Communism and Socialism, the ideal versions, have never been proven or disproven on a large scale, really. If you are referring to the current "Communist" countries, they're really dictatorships with a Communist economic plan. Socialism has been proven to be ineffective over a short term scale in it's pure form, the utopian societies created in early America are proof of that. Pure Communism works if the government hasn't been corrupted, whereas Capitalism relies on corruption and some form of oppression from large corporations. No pure system is effective, an integrated system is the best form of action to take when it comes to government, relying on a capitalist/communist economy and a democratic socialist form of government. By using this form, you can choose the best properties from both to balance out corruption as best as they can.

You are right, though, any government becomes corrupt over time, only by integrating average people into the mix and by removing long time politicians can corruption be stunted effectively. There really isn't any way to stop corruption out right unless a true democracy existed, not a representative, but then it becomes unstable and bendable to popular whim.

One problem with changing how a government operates, especially America's, is the fact that policy is so influenced just by people wanting to remain in office as long as possible. That causes a deep rooted form of corruption over time that is really hard to deal with. Another big problem is how prejudiced against other governments we are trained to be. I used to hate communism just based on what I had heard, but once I opened my mind to changing views, I realized that no form is perfect and needs to be integrated with another to reduce corruption and overall problems.

That's exactly why I wouldn't be a good politician, I'm idealistic and philosophical in my approach, which is usually impractical XD.

Anyways, just try and keep your mind open to different approaches to to government and economies, no single one is right, and man's quest to refine it over the years has made a dent in problems, but it is nowhere near our goal of a good sustainable gov./econ.
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Post #9 Oct 8 2008, 10:13 PM Taceo
You do have a point there, what we really need is to find the right balance for our nation. And to kick out all of the asses in the government right now.

I guess I'm a pretty even mixture between democrat and republican though, they both have their good ideas and their bad. Overall though, they are both extremely flawed no matter how you look at it.
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Post #10 Oct 9 2008, 11:10 AM Vlancer
Hmm...forgive me. I did seem to omit that there are different examples of how it works, more specifically what I meant by socialism or communism not working is based on different examples (which have shown different flaws, but not all together) not the over all.

All governments look perfect on paper, but in actuality there are flaws. For example, Democracy is a terrible form of government for the majority of the middle east right now due to Sharia law. It doesn't work for a culture who's religion is so deeply ingrained in a religious views which don't get along with democracy. That is not to say they are an lesser people, they just have a different perspective then the majority of our culture

All in all though, I do agree with you Inferno (last statement). It is a component of globalization.


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Post #11 Oct 21 2008, 09:28 PM Usk'ighte
To me, there is no such thing as an ideal government, solely because there is no such thing as an ideal people.

It is in our basic nature to do many things that lead to these problems.

People always want something better.(Technology)
But sometimes, we can't stand others having things as good as ours.(Jealousy)

They want to understand everything.(Science)
Even the afterlife.(Religion)
But, we push our ideas too far sometimes.(Crusades)
Or try to harm others to understand more.(Repercussions of Science)

We want things to be better for ourselves.(Pursuit of Happiness)
And some want it as quickly as possible.(Crime)
Or as much as possible.(Greed)

We want things best for our family and friends.(Community)
Yet, we put our family and friends above others.(Prejudice)

We act upon notions of right and wrong.(Morality)
And sometimes, the line is not so clear.(Abortion for one)

We act to show we can do something greater.(Self Worth)
And eventually, we act for the appearance of something greater.(Pride)
In doing so put others down.(Depression)
Or create need for better.(Change)
And force ourselves to do better.(Diligence)

And no one is perfect, no matter how much you try, our base instincts are still there. Take The Giver for example. Even when everything was made equal. The boy, Jonas, acts as a guide through the seemingly hollow existence of his new world. Yet, the giver seems to act as a pandora's box of hope and destruction. The very thing that makes everyone human.

So forgive me if I get off topic, but the main point I am trying to make, is that even if you theorize a perfect government, it will never hold as people are not perfect. Society has never really changed from long ago as the strong control the weak(not necessarily the majority controlling the minority). And eventually in every government, it will always end up that way.


On the view of democratic or republican, I vote neutrally. Congress has a bigger say in things.
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Post #12 Oct 22 2008, 08:00 AM Scorp
I am neither a republican nor a democrat (I guess that makes me an independant... but I don't vote for the independant party). I simply vote for who will make the best president... not a perfect president, but the better of the two.

As far as you guys talking about a government never being able to be perfect, we all know that, and we all know that it can never, ever happen. But a government is still necessary to society; without it, there are no rules and mass chaos.

So then you're left with a choice between John McCain and Barack Obama...

...

...although I suppose Sarah Palin would be taking office if McCain wins, because he's 72, has had melanoma (the deadliest form of skin cancer) 4 times, and refuses to release his medical records. Suspicious?

As far as I'm concerned, I don't want a hockey mom running our country. They're great, I really needed them earlier in my life, but being a soccer mom doesn't qualify you to be president, and should not be the basis of your campaign.

But let's not jump the gun here. McCain may not die until the end of his term. So, what we're left with is a militaristic old man who thinks America can conquer the whole goddamn world, apparently (I was baffled by his foreign policies... we might as well declare war on Russia from the get-go), and someone who has almost all the same ideals as Bush did (don't you dare try to defend that monkey-of-a-man, either; Bush has really destroyed our economy).

And then there's Barack Obama and Joe Biden. To be honest, I haven't heard any dirt on Barack that's factual. All I've heard are the Republicans screaming, "Terrorist! Terrorist! He's a Muslim! Lock all your doors, if you vote for Obama you're voting for a TERRRRRORRRRRRISSSSSSTTTTT!!!!!!!!"

Right now, we're facing a recession. Whether it leads to a depression or not, we need to change some things for the long-run. If McCain is going to continue spending as much money as we have in Iraq, and even increase the amount, and not reform crucial things in our system like education and healthcare benefits, then he's lost my vote.

Obama-Biden '08.


EDIT: Oh, and I'm finally back.
Edited by Scorp, Oct 22 2008, 08:01 AM.
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Post #13 Oct 22 2008, 09:33 PM Taceo
My idea:
Kill em all and start from scratch. Let the system be purged and go back to the basics. We lear from the mistakes of everyone before us and learn from them. That is what should be happening right now.


My vote this year, no one deserves it. Plus, I can't vote.
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Post #14 Oct 23 2008, 12:13 PM crimson knight
Quote:
 
We lear from the mistakes of everyone before us and learn from them.


Wouldn't it be great if that's how things really worked?

The fact is, history repeats itself, and we never learn.
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Post #15 Oct 23 2008, 06:27 PM Taceo
Yep, the human race is destined to fail. No matter how hard anyone tries, utopias are fantasies and complete imperfection is reality.
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Post #16 Oct 23 2008, 08:55 PM Craggon
Few things I wanted to state before giving my position:

It was said that the president doesn't wield much power over the economy, which is both true and false. He doesn't wield much direct power, but he makes appointments to positions (his cabinet, for example) that do affect the economy.

It was said that communism/socialism don't work, and much was added to this, but there are many things to consider. First of all, true communism is no longer around, it died out long ago when the last true communists were killed by those of conflicting beliefs/views. As far as modern communism goes, current communist countries aren't doing poorly, some are even exceeding other countries. A prime example of this is China, which is pushing to be the next world leader and, as John Oliver puts it, "waiting like a coiled snake for the batton of imperialism," which will be passed from us to them in the future.

I believe that it wasn't the government alone, nor the american public alone, who caused the economic downfall we are witnessing. Our capitalism has put us in this situation, and ironically it must take us out of it. The fact that we wanted to buy things that we couldn't, yet we did anyway, has contributed a lot to our situation, but in order to get out we have to put more money into the economy. The government tried to do this years ago with money handed out to the public; that money was expected to go toward buying things in order to boost the economy. However, people did the more responsible, yet questionably worse from an economic standpoint, thing by paying off debt.

I agree that the campaigns of today are dissapointing and do not follow the spirit of our government. If they focused on their own issues rather than attacking their political opponents, it would make for better elections. However, seeing as everyone in politics lies, it wouldn't help enough to know for sure who is the best candidate. It's been said that we can or should vote for the best of the two, which in my opinion should be rephrased to say the lesser of two evils.

Although I don't support either, I find flaws in both sides and will gladly look for more. One of my favorite flaws is the plan to not increase taxes a cent but to fix the economy and end the war (which doesn't necessarily mean withdrawing, it could mean trying to win it). There is no valid way by which to do this, seeing as it will take money to do any "good" thing for our country, and with all the money we are spending as it is, the taxes will have to increase.

I have decided, so far, that the lesser of the two evils is Obama, although I hate to say it. I have no quarrels with a "minority" in office, I'm all for it, but it is with great sadness that I find myself having to settle for whom I will vote.
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Post #17 Oct 24 2008, 02:29 PM RTMX
For those who would be democrats (and those who voted/voting for Obama), here is a link for you to look at. I couldn't find the link to the powerpoint that I was emailed. It's unpleasant, but it's true.

We are now the USSA (United Socialist States of America)!

1) http://davidtjordan.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/obamas-dream-of-a-ussa-united-socialist-states-of-america/
Edited by RTMX, Oct 24 2008, 02:29 PM.
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Post #18 Oct 24 2008, 10:36 PM Scorp
RTM2, as to your conservative, anti-Obama website...
Ok, first off, why is 'UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE' bolded and capitalized? We have one of the worst health care systems in the world, it's about time it became distributed amongst everyone and improved.

And I quote here, "Tell me if I’m wrong here! How are we to pay for any of the above-mentioned programs? Not to mention the ones I skipped as I read his magnificent ‘plan’??? I’ll tell you how- more of my hard earned money! More taxes. Socialism takes from the real working class, gives to the lazy class and creates dependence on Uncle Sam."

What an ignorant bastard. Barack Obama's tax plan is to increase the tax for the wealthier people, who are currently paying less than the middle-class, and not increase it for the middle-class, but not decrease it either. Basically, the rich finally start contributing to society, and the government (our COUNTRY) makes money and grows wealthier. A redistribution of wealth...? One that could possibly pull our country out of the crapper, at least temporarily? Good God, it's heresy! *eyeroll*

Another thing I don't understand: SOCIALISM IS NOT COMMUNISM, AND BARACK OBAMA IS NOT EVEN A SOCIALIST! He is not converting our country into a socialist one, he is simply taking some aspects of the country that the people have severely fucked up and taken advantage of and saying, "Look, we're fixing it for you". Whoop-dee-doo, no more advantageous insurance companies stripping you of your rights.

Now, I know this wasn't listed in the page (at least I don't think it was), but let us get something straight here. I am so sick of Republicans pulling out the, "He voted against a ban on partial-birth abortions!" card, because it's bullshit.

Read up on this:
"Obama's record in Illinois represents that of a pragmatic progressive, who pushed for moderate reforms and opposed right-wing legislation. In the IL legislature, voting "present" is the equivalent of voting "no" because a majority of "yes" votes are required for passage. Many IL legislators use the "present" vote as an evasion on an unpopular choice, so that they can avoid being targeted for voting "no." During the 2004 Democratic primary, an opponent mocked Obama's "present" vote on abortion bills with flyers portraying a rubber duck and the words, "He ducked!".

In 1997, Obama voted against SB 230, which would have turned doctors into felons by banning so-called partial-birth abortion, & against a 2000 bill banning state funding. Although these bills included an exception to save the life of the mother, they didn't include anything about abortions necessary to protect the health of the mother. The legislation defined a fetus as a person, & could have criminalized virtually all abortion."



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Post #19 Oct 25 2008, 01:10 AM Craggon
I have to agree completely with Scorpion and add a bit more as well. Our government is made with the openness it has for a reason, it isn't a two party system, although the majority of the population do fall into the two "main" parties. There are plenty parties out there who get an equal say, but who aren't backed enough to be in the big leagues. There are communist parties, socialist parties, hell there is/was a nazi/neo-nazi party at one point. Even if he were socialist, who gives a shit? It isn't as if he could create a coup anyway and take over the government to mold it his own way, the president doesn't have that much power. Checks and balances for the win! Besides, all of these things mentioned in his plan are exactly that, a plan. If he wants it to come true he will have to propose a series of bills, any and/or all of which could be shot down by congress (or even more likely be treated just as the bail-out was, reborn with a hell of a lot of pork-barrel legislation and little nuances that sway the opinions of members of congress, thus diluting the original bill beyond recognition).

People need to take a step back and think before they blab on about this shit. It's perfectly fine to have an opinion and voice it, but it is one thing to talk sensibly and another to talk bullshit.
Edited by Craggon, Oct 25 2008, 01:13 AM.
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Post #20 Oct 27 2008, 04:30 PM RTMX
Scorpion. Stop. talking. In. Little. Letters.
It. gets. Annoying. Hardly. Anybody. Can. read. It.
So. Stop. With. The. Font.

Seriously, I can't ready anything you said because of that. I'm on a 14'' monitor, and there isn't one larger than that at school. So can you help a bit by stop typing in small font.
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Post #21 Oct 27 2008, 07:03 PM Scorp
I. Like. Little. Letters. It. Makes. My. Posts. Look. Unique. And. My. Posts. Significantly. Shorter. In. Length.

But if you truly can't read it, I suppose I can stop...

Here's my last post, read it:

RTM2, as to your conservative, anti-Obama website...
Ok, first off, why is 'UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE' bolded and capitalized? We have one of the worst health care systems in the world, it's about time it became distributed amongst everyone and improved.

And I quote here, "Tell me if I’m wrong here! How are we to pay for any of the above-mentioned programs? Not to mention the ones I skipped as I read his magnificent ‘plan’??? I’ll tell you how- more of my hard earned money! More taxes. Socialism takes from the real working class, gives to the lazy class and creates dependence on Uncle Sam."

What an ignorant bastard. Barack Obama's tax plan is to increase the tax for the wealthier people, who are currently paying less than the middle-class, and not increase it for the middle-class, but not decrease it either. Basically, the rich finally start contributing to society, and the government (our COUNTRY) makes money and grows wealthier. A redistribution of wealth...? One that could possibly pull our country out of the crapper, at least temporarily? Good God, it's heresy! *eyeroll*

Another thing I don't understand: SOCIALISM IS NOT COMMUNISM, AND BARACK OBAMA IS NOT EVEN A SOCIALIST! He is not converting our country into a socialist one, he is simply taking some aspects of the country that the people have severely fucked up and taken advantage of and saying, "Look, we're fixing it for you". Whoop-dee-doo, no more advantageous insurance companies stripping you of your rights.

Now, I know this wasn't listed in the page (at least I don't think it was), but let us get something straight here. I am so sick of Republicans pulling out the, "He voted against a ban on partial-birth abortions!" card, because it's bullshit.

Read up on this:
"Obama's record in Illinois represents that of a pragmatic progressive, who pushed for moderate reforms and opposed right-wing legislation. In the IL legislature, voting "present" is the equivalent of voting "no" because a majority of "yes" votes are required for passage. Many IL legislators use the "present" vote as an evasion on an unpopular choice, so that they can avoid being targeted for voting "no." During the 2004 Democratic primary, an opponent mocked Obama's "present" vote on abortion bills with flyers portraying a rubber duck and the words, "He ducked!".

In 1997, Obama voted against SB 230, which would have turned doctors into felons by banning so-called partial-birth abortion, & against a 2000 bill banning state funding. Although these bills included an exception to save the life of the mother, they didn't include anything about abortions necessary to protect the health of the mother. The legislation defined a fetus as a person, & could have criminalized virtually all abortion."
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Post #22 Oct 27 2008, 07:12 PM DaFranker
False until proven True?

There has been no such thing as "Proof" that there will never be a utopian society or system, nor that such things cannot work, nor was there any clear indication whatsoever that humans will never be able to go beyond the petty stuff and the "corruption" that plagues most societies.

In fact, there have been half-truths to the contrary. Small communities in certain places in the world have their own, localized economic system and pool their economic resources together as a town, city, alliance of towns, or whatever. I've heard of a small region in a province of western france where thousands of people use a communal "service rendered points" system that actually works. Their economy is splendid, and restricted ONLY by the limited natural resources they have at their disposal and what they can trade it for (the only real use of money is when the council decides to trade with the exterior, such as for importing products for their shops and the daily needs of their citizens). I'd happily give a reference, but this comes straight from a video I saw a few weeks ago, and I'm afraid I totally forgot the name (both of the town AND the video).

This system obviously works because of the trust those people all have in each other, and could not be applied on a large-scale basis. But just why would that not be possible?

First, and most obvious, is trust. That's the key word in EVERYTHING just as soon as you create a society. People can't trust eachother, so they need tangible proof that this scrappy piece of paper with a number on it will actually be respected and they'll get something for it, rather than get scoffed at. Imagine if everyone just suddenly decided that only cash was really worth anything, and that digital credit is now worthless? Yeah, you get the picture.

Second, and a bit more subtle, is the actual CAPABILITY of the people WITHIN the system to ADAPT to said system. We ALL know that a perfect system that adapts to everyone absolutely requires millions of supercomputers, and I'm afraid that's just relying too much on something way too vulnerable. However, the people in that holed-up society I took for example were all ready to make this transition, didn't fear losing resources, didn't cling to an imaginary value they would otherwise have mentally and emotionally attached to something strange called "money" and "credit", and actually WANTED to make this work. Otherwise, it'd just have gone down the drain.

There are several other factors, but you can find those by yourselves if you think about it for a while, or you could always chat me up on MSN about it for the full thing. To make myself expedient, there are many designs currently in place or being elaborated to "make things better", as some people would so eloquently put it.

I'm aware that I completely skipped here the "human nature" factor, because that's something that can be solved, though my methods might shock a few. Besides, if you want to know, you can talk to me about this too, and I'll be glad to explain myself.

I just wanted to point out the possibilities here, both in my own nature to bring out and reveal the truth and to fulfill my life goals of acquiring, understanding and sharing knowledge. Yes, Flak, I am a liar. My greatest lie is either that of claiming to have limits when I could remove those, or that of claiming to not be really human while, in fact, I pertinently know that everyone has the potential to be as enlightened as I. Pun fully intended.

...and I wish the enlightenment part really were a joke, but unfortunately, when I look at the state of things and how people around me and around the world behave, I just can't ignore the obvious fact that I'm above them. Y'know, acknowledging is the first step towards healing. My cure here to being above is to bring everyone else to my level. I'm surely not up to the task, but I'm pretty sure I can piss off everyone enough that they'll do it by themselves.

So, with all this in mind, would all of you still cling to that idea of "doing the best we can with what we have" that seems all too widespread amongst electoral voters?

EDIT: Reiterative wall of text FTW!

And yes, this IS just a scrape off the top of my reflections on the subject. And that's just reflections, we haven't delved into actual thought or even any form of solution design yet, because that's even more interesting...

:kefkalaugh:
Edited by DaFranker, Oct 27 2008, 07:14 PM.
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Post #23 Feb 24 2009, 04:51 PM Donut-Fergie
Personally, i find myself too inferior to suggest what we need to save our economy.
All i know is, my parents despise Democrats, and don't like Obama. :grunteek:

BUT i heard a funny joke about Republicans and Democrats. :gruntgrin:
NOTE:It is said that an Elephant doesn't forget anything. AND the Donkey is also referred to as a "Jackass".

"The reason that the Republicans' animal is an elephant, and the Democrats' animal is a donkey, is because the Elephant never forgets that their opponent is a Jackass!"
Aaah, i bet no one cares. :frustration:
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Post #24 Feb 24 2009, 05:26 PM Grunt_of_War
Well, it helps when your audience is (usually) either Democrat or Republican, and even if people say they aren't affiliated, most do have at least a slight leaning.

In this case, however, I'll opt to agree with your statement. XD
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Post #25 Feb 24 2009, 05:38 PM Deleted User
Well, I'd would've said McCain for the economy, or alteast the gas prices, as where the Solar/Wind would raise them, over all. While nuclear would be better for those gas prices. Then there's a ton of times where Obama has terrible points, and also terrible ideas. But, whatever, we're stuck with him and we might just pass by. with our '09 elect.
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