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The "Dones"
Topic Started: Jan 6 2015, 07:40 AM (72 Views)
S.T.Ranger
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A church leader alerted me to this article by Thom Schultz, [url="http://www.churchleaders.com/outreach-missions/outreach-missions-articles/177144-thom-schultz-rise-of-the-done-with-church-population.html"]The Rise of the ‘Done With Church’ Population[/URL]. It deals with what is happening to some active Christians who are 'done with church' but not done with Jesus. Why don't you take a read. Schultz states that 'the Dones are fatigued with the Sunday routine of plop, pray and pay'.


First, I will just say I am responding to this because it strikes a chord which resonates with me, as I believe it will resonate with most believers, who at some point or other in their walk with the Lord...felt like being "done."

Most will pursue Church-Hopping, and some will just drop out.

The question I have with those who advocate, or at least are sympathetic to the premise of this article is...what impact will this kind of position have on those that have been involved in Churchianity rather than Christianity. In other words, we should understand that the average fellowship has members that are still in need of coming to Christ, and frankly, we have to admit that they stand a better chance of that occurring if they are under the preaching of the Word than if they drop out.

I think all of us at some point get discouraged about attending the, or a fellowship, but before we lay the blame on the leadership of those fellowships, let's first take into consideration the responsibility of the member. I can honestly say my own church-hopping, when I look back at it, was due in large part to my own pride, something I still contend with. I am usually bored to tears by the average message, the average lesson, but, that does not mean that God cannot speak to me through those messages and lessons. If I am expecting those in leadership to be flawless in doctrine, flawless in delivery, then in reality what I am doing is setting a standard of perfection based on my own views. In other words, if there is something I disagree with in a message or lesson...I have established myself as the one flawless in doctrine and in the midst of my judgment it is likely I am going to miss anything the Lord may seek to impress on my heart through the ministry of others.

So first let us take a look at why one might be motivated to drop out. The Body of Christ is a collective Body which is to be unified, and while we have great sectarian division in the Body today, there are primary doctrinal areas where most will be found in agreement. Now if we look at that division and we analyze the typical fellowship...

...we see the same thing.

Doesn't matter the denominational designation, among most fellowships we are going to find believers more studied, and less studied, more conservative, and less, more obedient, and less. In other words, no fellowship is free from believers who are at different stages in their walk, and their views will run according to their understanding and their obedience to that which they understand.

And where they are will determine their impact in the Body in which they fellowship in.

If you had asked me five years ago, my response to this issue would probably have been much different. But even that short period of time the Lord has impressed upon me that my attendance in the fellowship I attend has nothing to do with the issues mentioned...

Quote:
 
plop, pray and pay.'



Let's look at "plop:" this pictures sitting in the pew, I imagine. There is another derisive phrase, "pew warmer," which is also used to designate those with the implication that they are taking up space and contribute nothing.

Now how many of us would like to see more unbelievers "plop" down in a Bible teaching fellowship and hear the Word of God? And if one is viewing that man or woman next to them as simply taking up space, is that how we express the love of Christ? Does that one who is "done" consider himself to be simply...taking up space? If they can use such a derisive designation for others, how guilty are they of this very thing? Or is it a matter that their view of themselves restrains themselves from analyzing their own participation?

"Pray:" I would assume, again, there is a derision that implies ritualistic observance and participation in corporate prayer. Is there a value in corporate prayer?

Who would deny that?

Shall we assume that everyone, except the ones who are "done," are pew warmers that are...faking it?

"Pay:" This is a tougher issue, because my own position is that tithing is a First Covenant (Covenant of Law) practice, however, we do see that the writer of Hebrews says to go on unto perfection in regards to the foundational principles of the Law...but he does not say abandon them. What I mean by that is that the principle of support for those doing the God ordained ministry they have been appointed to did not stop when the Law was abrogated by the New Covenant. Paul exhorts the Corinthians, for example, that those ministering the Word of God to them were worthy of their "carnal," or worldly possession for the purpose of support. Simply stated, "Take care of those ministering the Word of God to you." While Paul set the example of self support, which is still the method of some ministers of the Word of God, in our culture the standard today is that we meet in a building for the purpose of corporate worship, and there are needs that must be met. When I was young my Grandfather was a member of a faith which met in a home. They sent out missionaries two by two, and those missionaries survived by the members' support. In a perfect world, all ministers would be like Paul, and to be honest, when I talk to those who graduate from the seminaries and colleges...I think we need to seriously examine the leadership which is being produced by them (and not all of them, by the way, there are still good schools out there).

But, to despise something such as support for the way most attend a Christian fellowship today, in my opinion, may indicate other aspects which pertain to the objecting individual. If you are a member of a fellowship that commands a "tithe" then simply find one that holds to an orthodox Christian view where the leadership teaches that one should give according to their heart. If you are giving because you feel it contributes to your salvation, or if it is taught that your walk with Christ can be gauged by your contribution monetarily, then there is a departure from New Testament giving. This is just one area of confusion that arises from the failure to properly distinguish between the New Covenant and the Law (Covenant of Law).

But, those who, at any given stage in their walk, feel they should give, regardless of whether the leadership teaches it badly or not, and violate their conscience in that matter, then there is no question that problems will arise. The fact remains, though, Paul instructed the Corinthians to support those ministering the Word to them, and if we disagree with the practice that has become traditional in our own culture, then we can disassociate with that group.

There is always the option of opening your home up to people yourself and footing the bill for the heating and cooling, cleaning the carpets, washing up the dishes, et cetera. And when you do that, and feel you have performed a New Testament and Early Church service, try not to have too much disdain for those who were saved in a building and have only known that particular method of fellowship.

To sum up this part of my response to the OP, I will suggest that in the case of many of the "dones," it is very likely that they are people who think they can do it better than those they have fellowshipped with. Better service, better doctrine, better leadership.

Go for it. Nothing stopping you. But my guess is that after you begin this endeavor you are likely going to run into some of the issues which may have led to the building of a structure where believers can meet. It is unlikely you will ever face what the Early Church faced, and have to meet in secret. How many believers in countries where they would be killed if it was made known they were worshipping Christ would feel grateful to be able to publicly meet. And can I ask this...what impact does a visible Church have on the world? How many unbelievers have walked into a local Church and been saved?

Most of the people I have spoken with on the forums, who speak derisively about "The Church" are usually those with heretical doctrines who became discouraged with "going to church" because they could not find a church fellowship that would...

...submit to their superiority.

They are superior in Doctrine, they feel, and they feel the Lord has sent them to "straighten out the errors of the modern Church."

Christ is the One building the Church, and while we do not assume everyone that goes to a Church, or fellowship, is saved, neither do we ignore that the Lord can save despite the faults and errors of the leadership of any given fellowship. As a believer matures, where they fellowship is their choice. Do I think all who are "done" are wrong to stop going to a traditional fellowship? No. In fact, that is sometimes the best thing that can happen...for the fellowship itself. And sometimes, it may be the best thing that can happen for the one who is "done."

In the years I have been walking with the Lord, I have never found a fellowship that I was completely satisfied with, and have done my share of Church-Hopping. But what I have learned is that my attendance creates an accountability in my life which is not present when I am a lone ranger. Since I have been married I also have the responsibility of spiritual leadership as a husband, and while I might not need the ministry of our fellowship in my own mind, it is not right to deprive my wife of the ministry that God may perform for her in that fellowship. And I have learned that if I humble myself, I can seek to hear what God would teach me in that service.

I view the local fellowship as a visible center of the Body which is for the most part, the place where people receive the sincere milk of God's Word. We can have disdain for those that sit in a fellowship for years and seem to be very ignorant, but, we have to keep in mind we are all individual in our walks and not everyone is going to learn at the same rate. If one seeks to elevate the rate of their growth...they're going to do that anyway. Some are going to be content to be "regular folk," lol, and since we know that our abilities bring about greater accountability, responsibility, and judgment, perhaps we can say that for some "ignorance is bliss."

But I have to question having disdain when I know for a fact that there are many sincere Pastors and Preachers out there ministering to the best of their ability, and to hold them, and their congregations in contempt wanders into an area that I cannot find a Biblical justification for. Again, usually those who advocate leaving the modern approach to fellowship usually do so because they themselves have left, and they are in fact seeking justification for their self removal. The New Testament establishes authority in the Body, usually to those gifted in the Word and able to teach based upon sound doctrine. If we find we cannot submit to the authority of the local Body, then we have the option to find another where the leadership can be held in honor, start our own fellowship (which will likely result in understanding why things are done the way they typically are these days), or drop out.

Small group meetings are great, but, I would caution anyone to be discerning as to the leadership of that group, and the doctrine taught. Because that group is going to have leadership as well...whether you know it or not. And if that small group undermines the ministry of a parent group, that too has to be questioned. You cannot be a member of a group you seek to undermine. There are no secret agent missionaries...everything we teach and do is open for the world to examine.

The last thing I would mention is that the use of Hebrews 10:25 to teach Church attendance is an abuse of the text and context of that chapter. In view is not an exhortation to be regular in Church attendance, but to embrace Christ. The forsaking of the assembling of the brethren is not being lax in Church attendance...it is a rejection of Christ. And we have to consider that some, at least, of those who proudly proclaim themselves as "done" are in fact those that have rejected that which Scripture presents as Christian, including Christian Doctrine and the pattern for worship which is seen in Scripture. We all know Christianity is individual and personal, but at the same time, we also know that Christianity is a Body united by Christ. How we choose to worship is up to us, but, where we are in knowledge, understanding, and practice is going to impact our decisions. As we learn of God, we are better equipped to choose the fellowship we attend, from a doctrinal as well as practical view. So I have to say I am against a public advocacy of withdrawing from the Church in corporate worship. While this article tries very hard to appear that it is not doing that, I see that it is. I am not an advocate of Religion, but, at the same time there is a benefit to many believers and unbelievers in corporate worship, even with the faults that may be found in it. This type of advocacy may on the surface sound reasonable, but, consider to those who have been involved in Churchianity who will also see this as justification for being "done."


Continued...
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S.T.Ranger
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Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
Schultz recommends: Pastors and other ministry leaders would benefit from asking and listening to these long-time members before they flee. This will require a change of habit. When it comes to listening, church leaders are too often in the habit of fawning over celebrity pastors for answers. It would be far more fruitful to take that time and spend it with real people nearby—existing members.


This is simply a false argument. How many here will attest that their Pastor's "fawn over celebrity Pastors?"

The truth is that most Pastors tend to seek to establish themselves and their own teaching. That has been my experience.

And that is precisely what most who "leave the church" do, lol. Their doctrine is the correct one. Their practice is the correct method.

And since when are leaders of any fellowship commanded by Scripture...to listen to their congregation?

The local fellowship is not unlike the typical family: children want to know that mom and dad are in charge, and they can be counted on. The wife wants to know her husband has everything under control.

So too, with many believers, they want to know there is someone they can go to for sound doctrine. Those who think they can straighten out their Pastors need to go Pastor their own fellowship, if they do not view their Pastor as an authoritative spokesman concerning the spiritual things of God.

Right?

What is needed is the exact opposite of what is advocated here: leadership should be able men who are sound in doctrine and practice who can teach the Word of God to those who come to learn and show in their lives...they practice what they preach.

At no time in Biblical History do we see the liberal and modern approach to the Word of God where doctrine and practice is decided by group meetings and general consensus.

The exact opposite is true: those who have unyieldingly stood on the Word of God and preached it have been in large part rejected, by those that are hostile to the Word of God as well as those whose association is weak, false, and religious.

For the "dones," I would first recommend a thorough examination of your own heart, and see if pride contributes to disdain for those who are in positions of authority in the local fellowship. Does your rejection and withdrawal from that type of fellowship nullify the ministries of many sincere and well meaning Pastors?

If you are against their authority...who made you the authority? And what are you going to do with it? If you follow a Biblical pattern, guess what...one day someone is going to rebel against your authority.

Okay...the questions:



Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
Ask them some good questions, such as:

1. Why are you a part of this church?



The fellowship I am currently attending, and have been a member of for about 6 years now, I guess, is one I visited before while attending another/other fellowships, and always liked the preaching of the Pastor/s.

Why I remain a part of this fellowship involves the fact that I have had other family members join since I have, and how my departure, should I decide to do that, might impact their walk with Lord...is important to me.

Then there are the folks that attend, among whom I have made friends, who give me a reason not to leave.

But the bottom line might be more personal: because I have done my share of Church-Hopping, and can look back and see my own guilt in leaving a fellowship, meaning, it was in large part due to pride (i.e., "Boy, the Pastor sure is wrong about that!"), and that it was a pretty stupid reason for leaving, I began to feel challenged by the Lord to deal with those aspects of my own character which I can honestly say I do not view in a positive light. I have come to view fellowship in the local Body as a challenge to myself. It is, I believe, a training ground, where we can learn to love those we come into contact with.

And we can all likely admit some people are simply more difficult to love than others (I'm one of those people, by the way. lol).

That deals with why I am a part of this fellowship, though, not why I attend. The primary reason we should put forth first in attending a local fellowship is the purpose of...

...worship.

While we can worship God on a daily and even hourly basis, and should, there is something to be said about corporate worship and having a place designated, set apart...as Holy unto God. Anyone that shows disdain for the House of the Lord has serious heart trouble in my opinion. While we do not impose an heavenly designation on the Sanctuary we worship in, we do, or should, view that place of worship as holy unto God.

And we should have somewhere we can go for that purpose. Someone opposed this as though we establish an altar which is heathen, but most of us do not view it that way. It is simply the place designated for worship.

And how holy that worship is, or how genuine, is up to the individual. The structure is not exalted, but God is.

So if worship is not the primary reason one attends, then perhaps their attendance might be questioned, but, they are still in a good place to learn how to worship.



Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
2. What keeps you here?



Again, it is a matter of responsibility in how my actions can positively or negatively impact both family members as well as other believers in that fellowship. It is a responsibility to my wife. If it were just me, I might be more inclined to look around, but, I feel it is important to have a place where I can go to worship.



Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
3. Have you ever contemplated stepping away from church? Why or why not?



I think all of us go through that kind of thing.

I view our walks with the Lord to follow a similar pattern among believers. The first is that on fire for the Lord stage, when we are first saved, followed by a stage in which we may become a little disillusioned and discouraged. This is an inevitable result when...we get to know the other people attending, lol. How we deal with that disillusionment will impact our walk with Christ, though, I believe.

If you are a new believer, fellowship helps to bring the Word of God into focus in our lives. As we learn from Sunday School teachers and Pastors, and become more familiar with the Word of God, we then begin to learn of the debates in doctrine which separate the various groups. We are going to, at that point, become a little more involved, meaning, instead of just taking what we are taught as it is given without question, like a teenager, lol, we will begin to form opinions on our own. That is just part of growing up. But we all now that as we being forming our opinions, those opinions will either have an authoritative and reasonable basis or they will simply be what we choose to believe. Sometimes what we learn will conform to those in authority over us, sometimes the differences will force us to find a group which embraces a similar theology.

As I began learning more, pride caused me to have disdain for leadership, and if a preacher was wrong about one thing then it was time to move on. I realized I was searching for the fellowship with the flawless preacher, and flawless members, but the truth is...no such fellowship exists. And the important thing I have learned is that first I must examine myself before I pass judgment on others. Preachers and Pastors, while in authority over a Body of Believers, should not be expected to be flawless.

And when, in discouragement, I have stepped away from local fellowship, I began noticing the impact it had on my life. Fellowship with other believers raises our accountability, and it will impact our conduct. It should, anyway.


Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
4. How would you describe your relationship with God right now?



Same as it always has been...a work in progress. I could say "It's pretty good," and that would be true. However, I understand that the man I ma now is not likely to be the man I am in five years, if the Lord tarry and I do not die. If the Rapture occurs, lol, that will be more true. But I am not the same person I was when I was saved, nor the person I was five years ago, or ten, or fifteen for that matter.

Salvation is a work in progress, and I am confident I am being conformed to the image of Christ. My understanding is better...but not flawless. Nor do I expect it to ever be, because the moment I feel I have a sound grasp of Scripture, God is going to show me something else that will involve instruction. Instruction in both the Word and daily conversation (conduct) is just an ongoing process that I will be going through while I am here. There is no goal line for that, and I thank God there isn't.

So all in all my relationship with the Lord is good, but it gets better as He continues to instruct me.


Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
5. How has your relationship with God changed over the past few years?



In my opinion...radically.

Of course, with forum discussion I feel I have been given a ministry which gives me a focus for that which the Lord is instructing me in, and how this has impacted my life has been momentous, again, in my opinion.



Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
6. What effect, if any, has our church had on your relationship with God?



Quite a bit: the Lord has used this fellowship to instruct me in areas of relationship with others. Rather than showing me my strengths, it has in fact shown me my weaknesses in dealing with others.



Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
7. What would need to change here to help you grow more toward Jesus’ call to love God and love others?



That's easy: me.

And if I don't go...where will I learn to love God and others?

That doesn't mean that is the only place, lol, it just means that attendance provides an opportunity unlike any other method of growth, even as Christian Doctrinal Discussion forums provide an opportunity like no other. Most, or at least many, who come to forums like this have an avid interest in the Word of God and seek to understand better. The same can be said of many who worship in a local fellowship. The forums are, I believe, a path to accelerated learning in both the Word as well as how we interact with others, but let's face it...not everyone in the Body is going to be as focused on the Word as others may be.

At least...not yet.

The Word is a little like eating, hence the use of such analogies in Scripture: our appetites for the Word grow the more we are exposed to it.



Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
It’s time to listen. Even as I’m writing this today, another high-capacity lay leader emailed me with his decision to leave his church. He’s done. Like many others I know, he’s also a nationally known Christian leader. But he’s done.


So what is he going to do? Does he plan on ministering still? And if so...how is his ministry really going to differ from the standard we have today?

If he is such a nationally known leader...why not produce his name?

Who is this guy, and why would his decision to leave his fellowship mean anything to anyone?



Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
Your church, even if it’s one of the rare growing ones, is sitting on a ticking time bomb.



Nonsense.

The local fellowship is like unto the Tabernacle in the Wilderness (which the writer of Hebrews always references, never the Temple), in that it is constantly erected and taken down. Members join, grow, and die. The next generation follows the previous.

And I will suggest that there are many fellowships out there with God fearing and sincere Christians both in leadership and laity. To pronounce the doom of the Church is to discount the fact that the One Who said He will build it is...still the One building it.



Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
The exodus of the Dones, the rise of the Nones and the disappearance of the Millennials do not look good for a church afraid to listen.



That's okay, because no-one should think that the Church is reliant on any one group, but upon the individuals that comprise the Body of Christ, who, by the way, can be found in many of these fellowships that doom is being pronounced on.

People who do not cast off love for those they fellowship with, nor their responsibilities to love, teach, and shepherd those the Lord brings into their community.

Sure, we can pick apart any given fellowship for a number of reasons, but let's not declare doom on an institution that the Lord personally shepherds.

I am a member of the Church, the Body of Christ, I am not afraid to listen. In fact, I am not afraid to respond, lol. And it is my belief that if we feel we have something by which we can help edify the Body of Christ with, then desertion is hardly the path that should be advocated.



Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
The Australian church leader, Bill Muehlenberg, who alerted me to this article has written his own response at: On Leaving Church.



I read it, but that would have to ne addressed in itself. We could examine the good and the bad.



Quote:
 
Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
Does this concern you or your church?



It is just a fact of life that fellowships often have a base fellowship and a revolving fellowship. New Churches are started over disputes which could not be reconciled. New denominations started over doctrinal differences.

But this kind of diversity and dispute has always taken place. Paul did not declare doom on the Corinthians, the writer of Hebrews did not give up on his people, but rather...they addressed the error and exhorted them to follow sound doctrine and practice.

Does this issue concern my fellowship? Not at all, unless we factor in basic principles which have existed since Christ began building His Church.


Quote:
 

Originally Posted by Anonymous Poster
In Christ,


God bless.
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