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| Witnessing: Who is it?; What is the ratio of Holy Spirit to scriptural knowledge? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 27 2016, 02:46 PM (193 Views) | |
| Donrennoco | Feb 27 2016, 02:46 PM Post #1 |
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Stranger
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When the Holy Spirit works through us are we aware he is doing so? Or are there times when he is working through us and we will not even be aware of it until we get to heaven and finally see everything from that perspective? |
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| S.T.Ranger | Feb 27 2016, 03:26 PM Post #2 |
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The ratio is 100% Holy Spirit. ![]() We understand that our ability to understand the spiritual things of God is directly related to a dependence in the Holy Ghost teaching us. This is true as to how we get saved... John 16:7-9 King James Version (KJV) 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; ...and it is true after we are saved. Now, consider the above passage, and notice that Christ foretells the coming of the Comforter, and that He, the Comforter, will convict the world of sin. We know this is a reference to the unsaved, because v.9 makes it clear they do not believe on Christ. Now, I ask you one question: do we contribute to that with our knowledge? The answer is no, we do not, again, He, the Comforter...is the One that brings conviction. That is the specific ministry He performs in this Age. Now that leads us of course to the question, "Does this mean we do not need to be concerned with the level of our own understanding?" The answer is no, because one of the things we do, when we are trying to be used of God, is of course come under obedience to all that is commanded us. And a simple command for us is...study. I will present a couple passage relating to this, but will preface those passages with asking, "Can we be used of God to witness to people if we do not know what it is we need to say?" One might look to this... Mark 13:11 King James Version (KJV) 11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. ...as an excuse not to study, but this would be, first, yanking this teaching out of it's context (which is that of the Tribulation period, not a general teaching for our Age) and secondly, ignoring other specific instructions that demand we not remain in a state of immaturity in regards to our knowledge of the Word of God. So here are a few passages to consider: 2 Timothy 2:15 King James Version (KJV) 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Another would be more specific: Hebrews 5:10-14 King James Version (KJV) 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. 11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Now, a few points to consider in this would be first that in view are not Christians. Might surprise you, but, those spoken to here are Hebrews (hence the title of the Book). While the Epistle to the Hebrews was written to be circulated in the Church, the warning here is specific to the Hebrew People and the Covenant of Law. So what we are not seeing here is a call for Christians to mature in understanding, but a rebuke to Hebrews who were ignorant of the First Principles of the Oracles (Word) of God. That refers to the Hebrew Scriptures, which, while the Epistles and Gospels were being circulated at this time, had not yet been put together as we have them today. And the point is this: he is saying, basically, "As long as you have been associated with Christ you should be teaching the deeper truths of Christ, but, you have need of being taught again the ABCs found in the Old Testament." Now, look at v.14, and see who that deeper knowledge (strong meat/more complete understanding of Christ as opposed to milk/the ABCs of the Hebrew Scriptures) belongs to: those who are familiar with the Word of God. They have discernment "by reason of use." So while I would agree that one can definitely witness without being some great Theologian, that does not justify a position where we might think we will be able to be the witnesses God means for us to be. Again, salvation is wholly the Work of Holy God, and though we be used of Him in that process it is He Who brings conviction of sin. He Who enlightens. But, if we are ignorant, or in error in our witness, we work contrary to how God has always presented His Word, which is something that is to be handled as though our very lives depend on it. Christ gave great reverence to Scripture, and He rebuked severely those who were in error in their doctrine, and warned us not to embrace the doctrines and practices of men. We should also give that reverence to the Word of God as Christ did, He being our example as to how we should view the Word of God. And this was in response to the discussion in the text. Now on to your specific Questions:
I think so. There is no time I feel the presence of the Lord stronger than when I am witnessing. This is why I always encourage people to spend time in the Word, and spend time in discussion with other believers, in an attempt to motivate them in regards to the Word, so that they might enjoy this fellowship. However, I can look back and see times when I witnessed in my own power. This is something that is possible too. So when I witness now, I have learned to be conscious of the Spirit and I try to allow Him to work through me.
Sometimes, yes, but not with the finality suggested here. This is the amazing truth I have shared with a number of people often: that's why God gave us His Word, lol. Note that discernment of good and evil is attributed to those who have put effort into knowing the Word of God (Hebrews 5:14). That discernment is something every believer can enjoy, but, not if we do not seek to further our relationship with God. If we say we want to know God better, should we not take advantage of what He has already given us? And lastly, here... http://christdoctrineview.proboards.com/ ...is the link to my new site. I think you might find that a little easier to navigate and I personally like the layout better. For some reason this one has gotten small and I can't figure out how to change it. God bless. Edited by S.T.Ranger, Feb 27 2016, 03:29 PM.
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| S.T.Ranger | Feb 27 2016, 04:24 PM Post #3 |
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I just wanted to add something to this, because I don't want anyone to get the impression that I do not consider the various stages we go through as we learn to be witnesses for God. One of things that will happen when we are witnessing is that we are going to be witnessing to a diversity of differing beliefs. We will speak to people of other faiths, and in fact, other religions (and there is a distinction). We will also speak to atheists. Now, the one thing I want to point out is that when we witness to those who are hostile to Christianity, which will be just about everyone you speak to, lol, one of the things we need to be prepared for are the arguments they will present which they use as a basis for that hostility or rejection. And here is the advice I always give to people: study the Word of God, and let that be your source for the foundation of your doctrine. My Dad told of a man that worked for the Government who dealt with counterfeit money. The guy was asked the question, "I guess you spend a lot of time studying counterfeit money, then?" His response? "No, I spend a lot of time studying genuine money." Wise man. And we need to do the same, because just like counterfeit money, false religions and false doctrines are almost always going to have an appearance of being genuine. If counterfeit money did not so closely resemble the genuine article, it would not be a problem, right? If I go into a store and try to pay the bill with the money from my Monopoly game... ...what's going to happen? So too, with false doctrine. it appears to be the genuine article. But, that doesn't mean it is. So when we witness, we are going to run into quite a variety of arguments presented from those we speak to (and by argument I am referring to a presentation of reason to support a view or position, not a shouting match between two antagonists). We are either going to start preparing ourselves for those encounters now, today, or, we are going to walk away from opportunities given us by God to speak for Him... ...with regret. Sometimes after those encounters we can come up with some good responses, but by then it is too late. I myself have never really understood why someone wouldn't want to be prepared, because pretty from day one of my salvation the one thing I have wanted to do is share that with other people. I drove more than a few Pastors and Sunday School Teachers batty with questions. And I remember a few occasions back then when I was witnessing, and how they responded, which still stand out in my mind today. One was a Catholic, who, after having some really good conversation, and a general agreement about what we were talking about, then asked me what faith I was of. I told him...Baptist. This changed everything, lol. He said, "I don't trust Baptists, they believe you can never lose your salvation." Now here is the point in relaying that encounter: my response was "Yes, we certainly do," but in the back of my mind I was asking myself... "...why do you believe that?" A similar thing happened when I was telling someone, "You have to be born again according to Christ." And God spoke to me, and placed in my heart the question, "What does that mean?" Well, this is something that happens when witnessing. As we witness, we will be motivated to study by both those we witness to, as well as God. Something else I have had happen, while witnessing...God has revealed truth to me. Sound a little arrogant or questionable? I'm telling you...it's true. What has happened is in a moment, a split second, God has taken a number of issues I have studied and in the midst of witnessing...placed them into a context I had not previously considered, and revealed truth to me. It might be likened to having a bunch of pictures on a wall making up another bigger picture. So again, the reason I like to motivate people to study is because there is no time when I feel the Lord's presence as strongly. My hope is that more believers might understand that special fellowship which I believe is experienced only while serving God. God bless. |
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| Shim | Feb 28 2016, 04:25 PM Post #4 |
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I believe this is so. It is the Holy Spirit that brings conviction whether to our intellect or to our conscience, and this is to say it is not our role. But I believe faith comes by hearing the word of God. I haven't any problem suggesting that we do rely on God's word which seems needlessly said. But I am surprised as to how many in Apologetics think it is their own brilliance, that is, the brilliance of their arguments, its eloquence, etc that brings people to Christ. I would recommend pause to someone that is persuaded for such reasons, though it works to our benefit, the concern is false conversion. It seems that sometimes Apologists are not yielding to the Holy Spirit's role, because sometimes Apologists think it is their job to break down barriers, overcome backgrounds, culture, or experiences which tend to shade or color a persons' beliefs. As for being concerned with our own understanding, I think, as long as we parrot only Scripture then our own doctrinal positions etc are without emphasis. The moment we begin to explain things, offer interpretation, ect., then yes, our understanding has a way of causing bias or doctrinal division. Personally, this is why I do not usually engage in Creation v. Evolution debates anymore. It just seems very common for one to speak in secular terminology to build rapport and then to bridge the chasm to Scripture. However, I have never witnessed another crossing that bridge, which leaves the debate focused on secular ground, in which time seldom do the covers of the Bible open if ever. Lastly, I am not picking only on Creation Apologists, even John the Baptist was faced with these issues in the closing paragraphs of John Chapter 3. Personally, the thing I hate the most is suggesting or writing something out in response to another, and hearing in the back of mind, "That was pretty good". Competitive pride exists in many forms, there is no place for it in Christianity. God bless, William Edited by Shim, Feb 28 2016, 04:46 PM.
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| S.T.Ranger | Feb 29 2016, 04:14 PM Post #5 |
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As one that has been witnessing for a number of years, and having gone through some tough lessons, lol, I have to disagree with what I have seen as a popular trend towards being witnesses for Christ and doing so with the testimony of our lives only. What I mean is that rather than encouraging people to the examples we see in Scripture, where Doctrine was not only understood but demanded, we see often from the pulpit a pat on the back, so to speak, that it's good enough just to live exemplary lives and letting that be our witness. I agree, our lives should separate us from the world, and that should stand out, but, we have to follow the examples given in Scripture in regards to our knowledge. Again, as stated in the beginning of the first response, I believe this is 100% the Holy Spirit working through us, preceded by the Holy Spirit teaching us. We are, according to both Peter and James, regenerated through the Word of God. That does not mean we are born again because we read in the Bible. It doesn't mean we are born again because we heard a radio sermon. It doesn't even mean we are born again because we sat under some really good preaching for years. It means that the Word of God is instrumental to regeneration, and when we balance that with the Ministry of the Comforter, we see one valuable truth: we are born again through the Word when the Comforter enlightens our minds to the truth of the Gospel. So that is the starting point, how we are saved, and we consider that when the Holy Spirit enlightened out minds, what He revealed to us was 100% Gospel truth apart from even a hint of error. Now what has that got to do with witnessing? Glad you asked, lol. It is just to reiterate the first point I made in answering the OP: 100% reliance on the Holy Spirit. When the Spirit of God is ministering to men, clearly identified as unregenerate in John 16:7-9, He does not use a Mormon, for example, and expound upon the virtues of eternal marriage, lol. He does not use a Buddhist to encourage people to be at one with nature. No, He does precisely what we are taught He does, He glorifies Christ. Now when we seek to be used of God, He will only use us within our ability and gifting, so if we are thinking the Lord is just going to speak the great truths about Christ through someone not too familiar with the Word. If someone has had that experience, I would be greatly interested to know. He can prophesy through men apart from their understanding, but, I think I would rather be likened to Paul who went through extensive training than Balaam's donkey or Caiaphas, lol. The general point is that while we can certainly witness when we are young in faith and still learning basic truths, that doesn't mean we are not going to run into people that are going to have tough questions for us. I have always been motivated, pretty much from the time I was saved, to be ready with a sound answer for those I run into. This has motivated me to study, and I can't help but think that this is what the Lord would have us all do...study. Continued... |
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| S.T.Ranger | Feb 29 2016, 04:44 PM Post #6 |
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I think this is a little unfair to Apologists on at least two fronts. First, not all Apologists can be said to be doing what they do because they seek to glorify themselves. Secondly, we have to understand the difference between Apologetics and witnessing for Christ. We have great need for someone, somewhere, to analyze the objections of skeptics. This can serve the purpose of not only supplying the Body with sound response, but, it can, and I am sure has, not only restored some brethren but also led some to Christ. One issue we consider is that when we deal with Atheists, we are dealing with people that like to think they are logical and reasonable. You are not going to enter into discussion with them and think that an approach of "Turn or Burn!" is going to work out too well. While we consider Christ's teaching, "And He shall convict the world of...eternal judgment," and understand that the fear of that Judgment is one of the elements revealed to the unregenerate, we also understand that the Comforter is not a One Sermon Spirit. I would think that Paul's efforts would make that clear. A few examples would be Paul speaking to those on Mars Hill, as opposed to Paul speaking to Jews in the Synagogue, and then Paul ministering to those associated with Christ (meaning the visible Church, not just the Body of Christ. And we see that a one approach pattern is not the case. And I don't think we can say that Paul being an Apostle was an unfair advantage, because we assume that God does not minister in people like that anymore, and I for one don't take that view, I believe He does. 1 Corinthians 9:19-21 King James Version (KJV) 19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. Doesn't mean, for example, that Paul became lawless that he might minister to those without the Law, but that he catered his ministry to meet specific groups. So Apologetics are something I see useful to the Church, and I give anyone the benefit of the doubt as to motive until it is made clear that their motives are suspect. And I haven't really seen that even in the antagonists I face of differing beliefs. I think most, even Atheists, are in large part sincere in the views they seek to present. And I have no doubts whatsoever that God has taught me much in debating Atheists. It has helped me to have a stronger compassion for the lost, for one thing. I know a Pastor that refuses to speak to atheists. That's not how I look at it.
Whereas I would recommend some good discussion, lol. It's usually difficult to see any progress sometimes when we are seeking to witness to people. But sometimes we do get the privilege of seeing results. And sometimes those results are meeting people on their own level. Not from a moral standpoint, but a doctrinal standpoint.
This is a concern, which is why I do not concern myself with trying to determine if someone is saved, particularly when it comes to my own ministry. I can't save anyone. I can't talk anyone into the Kingdom of God. Hence...it is not an issue, lol. But, what is an issue is...false and sloppy doctrine. We have to remember that the world is looking on, and it is, in my view, an inevitable result that people who teach sloppy doctrine bring shame on the name of Christ. There is nothing unreasonable or illogical about the Word of God. Yet that is the view that many of the lost have, and this is laid squarely into the lap of the Church. Christ told the disciples to go out and make disciples, but when we frequent many forums more are concerned more about making friends than disciples of Christ. And this is why we do see many conversions that result in no follow-up. They get baptized, and then disappear. True conversion is going to result in continuance. And continuance is going to result in growth. And it is just my personal opinion, but I believe that we can play a part in the rate of growth. Rather than discouraging study, I am going to encourage it, because those who receive only a once a week diet are just not going to grow at a very rapid pace. And I can't really understand that. When I was saved I wanted to know as much as I could, and this for the specific purpose of not looking like an ignoramus in the field, lol.
Who? What Apologists do you speak of? We had a guest speaker in the past year or so, and his entire message was one of encouraging people to witness, study, and have a greater concern for the lost. After it was over, someone in our leadership made a comment about people "thinking they are the Holy Spirit," which was completely contrary to what the man had just preached. In regards to the Creation debate, this is one of the most rewarding debates out there. Every time I get involved with one I always walk away feeling as though God has taught me something. We simply can't respond to the arguments if we never hear them, right? And what I would point out is that those same people, Atheist and Theistic Evolutionists...are out there teaching and preaching their doctrine. Some of the forums I have visited have been known as "Christian" forums, and guess who owns the pulpit? Atheists. False teachers. Skeptics. Is there not a need to counter false doctrines with the Word of God? Continued... |
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| S.T.Ranger | Feb 29 2016, 05:07 PM Post #7 |
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Brother Shim, I don't think I have ever heard you say something that I disagree with more, lol. This is a major problem in the Body of Christ...we have too many parrots. I know what you mean, brother, in what you say, but, this is how I see it: we have a great number of believers who have not developed their faith, but have simply adopted the faith of their Pastors and Sunday School teachers. What I mean is this: they say "We believe..." but they do not, from the Word of God, actually have a Scriptural Basis for that belief. Many believe in Eternal Security, but let them speak to someone who teaches loss of salvation and their "faith" in that belief is shaken. And that is a concern: proselytizing to another faith. It might be likened to letting our kids play in the street.
Division is not a bad thing, and highly recommended in the Word of God. The fact is we do not want to bring the world into the Church, and if someone is under a false assumption concerning their salvation, someone needs to have enough love for them to tell them so. And again, we need to distinguish between witnessing experiences we have in the real world with the discussion and debate we enter into as Students. It's two different things. That doesn't mean we can't lead people to Christ on the forums, I think we can, but, there's a difference between that and encountering people in the field. So again, I have to take issue with such a negative view of Apologetics.
It's a great way to learn, in my view. I love those discussions, but, I prefer more Soteriologically oriented discussions.
This presents almost an image of deceptive practice, like those engaged are undercover, lol. I don't take that approach. My witness is pretty much the same in every discussion, every topic, and regardless if it is on a forum or in the real world. This is why some people get upset with me... ![]()
Hey, nothing wrong with acknowledging a good post. Earlier today, in a thread about whether people thought it was okay to carry a concealed weapon to Church, I made the comment "I don't have a problem with it, but would prefer it be by people who are responsible and would not complicates things if a situation arose. But it's a different story if someone is sitting around hoping something will happen," or something along those lines, and a poster replied with a picture of a target made out of hay that was made like a person sitting there. Great post. Get it? Not sure if he actually meant to say my statement was a "straw man," lol, but one of the best posts I have seen from a perspective of humor. In debate, someone is usually going to right, and someone is going to wrong. Make the mistake of being right too much and you're arrogant in the minds of some. But I will say this: Sound Doctrine and Doctrinal Purity is important to me. Some of the nonsense that is taught on forums is sickening. Some of the people who hold places of authority is sickening. It's because people do not take Doctrine seriously. And that perspective is, I believe, generated in many fellowships (churches). Sunday Schools have become a "pass the hat" atmosphere, where there is no valid teacher, everyone just shares what they think a passage or concept doctrine means. And this is simply not something that comes from Scripture. Christ is our greatest example, and we see a great reverence for not only the Word but correct Doctrine. I don't think we can take an attitude that we can expect the Lord to use us if we are not even obedient to a mandate to be correct in Doctrine. I am not saying that beginning students shouldn't witness, they should, because one thing I know is that will motivate to study. It should, anyway. Anyway, good to see you Shim. God bless. |
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| Shim | Feb 29 2016, 10:36 PM Post #8 |
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Happy you're back at least where we can dialogue . Should I inform some others you're back here on this forum? Or are you only popping in from time to time? I keep in close contact with about three from our group of old on this forum. Lemme know. God bless, William Edited by Shim, Mar 1 2016, 02:46 AM.
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| S.T.Ranger | Mar 1 2016, 09:36 AM Post #9 |
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I have never actually left this forum, and my participation is just as it used to be, when there is something to participate with, lol. My first focus is as always in my efforts on other forums, so just come here when someone else does. I am still not advertising this site, and generally invite few people here. I have, though, started another site (which can be found under forum friends) which I have gotten to like better, because for some reason there are some bugs here, which are likely a result of my attempts to upgrade the site. Not as good as some of the Vbulletin forums I have been on (just like the format), but at least it doesn't scrunch the quote box up like it is here now. So nothing has really changed around here, lol. And I can only think of two others you might be referring to, who were once regular attendees here, that would be Strat and Theophilus. I have no problem with you informing them at all. Theophilus, I think, joined the other forum, so he already knows. God bless. |
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| Shim | Mar 1 2016, 01:08 PM Post #10 |
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I'll have to check out your other board. Vbulletin lost a lot of clients when they were bought out by Internet Brands. They are still under the company name, Vbulletin, but some developers jumped ship and started a new company called Xenforo. Christianforums.com and Christianforums.net both use Xenforo. As for Vbulletin, they currently develop three different versions, Vb3, Vb4, and Vb5. I am using their latest, but it really was buggy until 6 months ago. Actually, I am waiting for a new update that should hit us Vb clients by the end of March, it will be based on PHP 7. I experimented with this PHP version and nearly knocked off 2 seconds from page load time. Can't wait. Really, quite excited about the next update. After working with Vbulletin for a year last month, February was Christforums.org anniversary, I am pretty comfortable with it software wise. Lots of tweaking and customizations have finally been completed after a year. If I had to do it all over again, it would be a tough decision to choose between Vbulletin and Xenforo. I can tell you what the deciding factor would be - 3rd party products. If you were considering a purchase and planned to run a default board then I'd run Vbulletin because of its CMS. If you were to choose customizations, then lots of developers are creating 3rd party products trying to cash in on the Xenforo cash cow. While Vbulletin is customizable, many developers jumped ship when Vbulletin was bought out. They are pretty disgruntle too, and will talk very negatively about Vbulletin, especially the company's direction. Seriously, you should hear these brand loyal developers talk, it is like Chevy v. Ford. God bless, William Edited by Shim, Mar 1 2016, 01:11 PM.
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| S.T.Ranger | Mar 2 2016, 11:26 AM Post #11 |
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The new forum is proboards, I think, lol. God bless. |
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