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1 Corinthians 5:9-14 NASB
New International Version (NIV)
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
Hello brother Shim and good morning. It is 5:46 here on the East Coast, and I am up a little earlier than usual, but I see that it is good to be an early riser this morning as you seem to be dealing with quite a serious issue. My hope is that the Lord might direct me to give sound counsel in this, that you might be edified and place this situation where it belongs...under control through the guidance of the Lord, that it trouble your heart no longer.
I see several issues in this, so I will respond through the post and try to actually separate them. Just know that I can understand some of what your feeling, if not all, as much of this I can relate to from my own experience, so I hope this helps, brother.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
I joined a church before I married. Since then, after marrying I have gone to my wife's church. This church has married us and we received counseling through it. There's definitely history being built.
I am assuming that perhaps you relocated when you married, is that right? If I remember correctly you have not been married all that long, what is it, a little over a year or so?
From what you have said it seems that your former Church home was noe in which you felt you received the word of God and at this time would come under conviction, whereas it seems that your current fellowship this may not be the case. You mention that "I have decided to go back to my original church as I found one here of the same organization," and I would be curious how different the "organization" which you now attend is from the one you attended before marriage. While even a denominational name can be deceiving, meaning you can find Baptist Churches that are Charismatic in nature and Charismatic Churches that are fundamental and conservative (lol), it seems that you have come to a conclusion that you are not being fed in this fellowship. While there is always the possibility that we might feel this way because of pride, perhaps, it still remains that we are the best judge of whether or not we are being properly fed at the fellowship we attend, so the first point would be...this is a problem. You have recognized it, and now it is up to you, as the spiritual head of the household, to decide what is best for you and your family.
I understand this could be a source of trouble in your household, and may bring dissension in your household, and I pray your wife is obedient to the Lord in following your leadership. If she has been a longtime member with strong ties, it is going to be difficult for her to leave, and I would caution you to keep this in mind. While we are the spiritual heads of the household, this does not mean we can overlook issues which may have roots that are deeply set, such as may be the case in this. So that adds a difficult aspect to the situation.
What you say later in this post makes me think that perhaps you have begun attending another Church while your wife still goes to the one you have left. This is not good for a number of reasons, namely it is important that you two attend the same Church Fellowship and that you are one concerning spiritual matters. How does she feel concerning the issue of the two which troubles you? How does she react to your assessment that you are not being spiritually fed there? These issues should be important to her seeing that it is affecting you so strongly. But again, keep inmind that if she has strong ties with this Church, she is probably being pulled in two directions, so I would advise understanding in gentleness on her part, and be certain not to let even a hint of resentment stir in your heart if she is not showing the level of discernment she should be. She is the weaker vessel, after all (lol...and if you tell her I said that I'll deny it...just kidding). Being newly married it would not be surprising that she may not yet have had time to come to trust your judgment, and it may be that for all of us there will always be a certain amount of growing needed in trusting our spouses, but it is, I believe, harder for the woman to learn to be obedient to the Lord where her husband is concerned. And how you handle this situation will in all probability be just one step in earning her trust, for that is what we must do...earn that trust by handling such matters in a mature manner. This is what separates the Rangers from the boys, lol.
Okay, point of interest #1: whatever happens, it is not a good idea to have separate Church homes. If I have read this into your post and this is not the case, forgive me. I hope I am wrong, for you two are to be one in spirit and this cannot be accomplished in full if you are going to separate fellowships. This is probably what jumped out at me first concerning importance in this situation. Satan will do his best to bring separation into your lives, and this sets a precedent for a separation in your marriage that may overlap into many areas.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
However, there's something I have against this church. I never feel a sincere conviction for my sins.
This is, as mentioned before, also a point of interest. In this...I can certainly relate all too well. When I got married we moved into an outlaying county and attended nearly every fellowship out here. After quite a long time of "visiting," I found that because there was no regular fellowship or a sense of "belonging," it got to the point where it didn't matter if we were in Church or not. This is one affect of not being in a fellowship where we are being spiritually fed. Where we can grow. And, as you mention, where sin is addressed. Some of the fellowships I have visited have been what I call "dead." This does not mean that those that did attend were not being fed, but I myself personally was not. When I look back at it I can see that there was no small amount of pride on my part, and that was my sin. Even now this affects me, because to be honest, most preachers and teachers...bore me to tears. This is in part because much preaching and teaching is geared for the main body of the Body, lol, and it is expected not to get to indepth concerning the word of God in most services. Luckily I attend a Church where my Pastors are excellent teachers, and seldom do I not get something out of the message. What I did learn, though, is something that I learned in my trade: the smartest man in the world can learn from the dumbest. What that means is that even a lowly helper can teach a master tradesman a thing or two. The same thing applies with us, brother, and when we can put our pride on the shelf and make our ears sensitive to that which the Lord seeks to instruct us about, no matter who it comes from, then we can begin to learn a valuable lesson. Sometimes we can rob ourselves of blessings in many areas due to pride, so it is good to be attentive in areas where there may be blessing to be found, if we will just look for it.
But...we still go back to proper spiritual nourishment, and as I said, you are the best judge of this. I finally decided, after we moved out here, that we were going to choose a Church where we would at the least know we needed to be there. Unfortunately this was not necessarily a good decision, and while my wife was happy with this Church, I was not. I confess pride was an aspect of how I felt, but, it still remained that I was not being fed, I was not growing.
So we found another fellowship. And all was well with this fellowship until...
lol
Such is life, right? It was similar, I think, to your situation: we had two neices and a nephew in a private Christian school. There was an 18 year old boy that had taken an interest in my 14 year old neice. A little disturbing to me, but when I found out this boy was in the habit of cutting himself (which I am sure you are aware is an ancient pagan practice associated with idolatry and thus demonic activity)...I became quite upset. I personally went to the school and confronted the Administrator, and was assured that he would "be kept on the other side of the school." This did not happen. I went again, after trying to contact the Pastor personally (he was actually my old Pastor, I had left this Church (due, again, to pride)) unsuccessfully, and the attitude of the Administrator was at this point basically, "What do you want me to do about it?" At that point I lost it. I might add that the boy himself was in the room when I showed up, and tried to leave the room but I told him, "You stay here...this concerns you." You see, I found out my neice...was cutting herself. It seems this practice for some brings a "high." Go figure. My decision was, as you imply in your post, to pull the kids out of this school. There was no Church Discipline...at all. The administrator, the Pastor, both were, in my opinion, hypocritical in their actions, and rather than enacting a discipline which I am sure you would agree would have been the biblically accurate course of action, they seemed more worried about "preserving the peace," as the boy's mother worked in the school cafeteria. Staff Kids...
Now for the second part: this boy, and his mother...were members of the Church we attended. I then contacted my Pastor, and there was supposed to be a meeting between the boy, the mother, the Pastor, and myself, which meeting never took place as the Pastor canceled it. So the result was that we pulled the kids out of that school, placed them in another, and found another place to worship, which fellowship we still attend.
The point in relaying this stroy is this, brother: I would counsel you to consider confronting the "two" you refer to, as well as the Pastors. You say you do not feel led to do so, but this is really the first course of action. This is not to say that it might not be a good idea for you to find another Church, but I do not think Paul meant for the sexually immoral to cause us to leave a fellowship, but then, we also expect Church leadership to enforce discipline in the Body, so you are in a predicament where circumstances are extenuating. I guess if you have decided to go to another fellowship, it might be thought that there is no point, but, just as our own bodies tell us when a "member" is hurting, even so you should consider the ones living in sin as members of the body who need special attention. It may be that you speaking up may set in motion a series of events which only the Lord knows what may come of it, but, if these two were on fire you would certainly do something. And how much more serious is the soul in danger of hellfire than the physical body in danger of fire? Speak to them, speak to both (or all) Pastors, and then, having done what you can, then it is in the Lord's hands.
You never know what may happen. For good or bad, give it some thought.
Point of interest #2: you need to attend a Church where you are being fed! Be wary of how pride may beaffecting you in this, as well as using caution that the actions of others are not just an excuse to make a move that you know in your heart is best for you, namely, finding a Church Home where you can grow through proper administration of the word. Which will be best for not only you, but for the health of your marriage, you being the spiritual head of the household.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
The old church I attended confronted a member of the church. This member was committing adultery, and when confronted refused to repent and stop the affair. The church brought this person in front of the entire congregation, shared Scriptures on why they decided to do this. Then asked all members to not have contact or any association with this person from this point forward.
Bravo for this Church. Really. Dealing with sin in the lives of the congregation has to be probably the hardest thing for a Pastor to do. God bless the Pastor that has the courage to do so. And having said that, I would ask you to think of your role as a Pastor to your family. It is easy to recommend this to someone else, I know, but having the courage to confront sin will take the full support of the Lord, I believe. In your post it almost seems that it is family members that are involved. This adds another level of difficulty to the situation if this is true. Now we have a wife that may have strong ties to not just the fellowship, but with those involved. So the risk of alienating your wife,
and her family, well, tread lightly, though surefooted, brother.
If you violate your conscious in order to "keep the peace," though, I thinkk the effect this will have long term will be worse than dealing with it head-on. It can be handled discreetly, though. It should not be thought strange that you stand upon biblical principle, just make sure that it is biblical principle you are standing on. Examine your heart first, and I am confident the Lord will direct you in this matter.
I was deeply disappointed in the events that I just described concerning my niece. I fully expected the Pastors and administrator to not only understand my view of the events, but to take decisive action. I will say that my hope is this: because it was not ignored and brought to the attention of the responsible parties...they were forced to deal with it in some fashion or another, I assure you. The boy, both Pastors, and the Administrator.
There is no reason why we should not expect things to be done decently and in order, and there is no reason to stay silent when souls hang in the balance.
Point of interest #3: don't let Church Discipline fail in the Body by remaining silent. We all have a certain responsibility toward other members in the Body, and sometimes it will be unpleasant.
1 Corinthians 5 NASB
King James Version (KJV)
5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.We may be able by the actions of others to make an educated guess concerning the spiritual sate of others, and sexual sin is a good indicator. But, we know it is possible for people to be saved yet still follow a pattern which is ungodly. This can be due to one being a babe, immature, and not having fallen under conviction of that sin. When an alcoholic is saved, there is no guarantee he will not violate the biblical principle of not getting drunk again. Likewise, sexual sin is a difficult area for many, and after being saved, there is no guarantee that they (we) will never again violate biblical principles to be sexually moral.
But usually, when there is sin that is obviously antichristical it is not paraded before the Body in an obvious manner. To do so gives more insight to the heart than anything, I believe. So for the sake of these, in gentleness, it would be good to talk to them. Then to the Pastors, if they will not hear you. If they are family members, whether by blood or marriage, discuss this thoroughly with your wife, that she is aware, and if she is opposed to confrontation then it would be good to find out why. If she is amenable and supports you, good. As I said, it is easy to counsel this course, harder to follow it, but, understand: when we take issue with the sins of others we must all the more plead God's mercy that we not find ourselves tempted similarly.
Galatians 6:1
King James Version (KJV)
6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.Point of interest #4: have compassion on these, knowing that you may be the one that leads them to repentance.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
I bring this up because...
I have become aware of two members of our church living lifestyles contrary to a Christian life according to Scripture.
While it would be better if the sin was made known, perhaps it is good not to focus upon that, but to look at SIN rather than sins. Concerning the former, even after salvation SIN affects us, whether it is through temptation or the actions of others. As the verse above (Galatians 6:1 NASB (and I like to throw in other translations sometimes for cr. purposes)) tells us, even we have need for mercy, and it a surety that the Lord requires mercy of us and that He rewards mercy with mercy, so our compassion affects us as well.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
I am certain at least one Pastor knows and has said nothing.
Until you know for sure, it is best not to assume. It would be best to speak first to the two, then the Pastors, but again you have have stated that you are unhappy with this Church, so this complicates matters a bit. If your mind is made up to leave, how then should you address this? It might seem vindictive to raise the issue just to leave. I am more concerned about whether or not you will be worshipping in the same fellowship with your wife...this is by far the greatest issue I see here. Don't let this become a point of division in your marriage, whatever you do.
Point of interest #5: no guesswork...make sure you have the facts, and analyze those facts with an eye of examination first on your own heart, then the secondary points of interest, and how all of this works together and the results you can expect from your conclusions.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
These immoral lifestyles are affecting me.
How so? While the sins of others will impact our lives in a number of ways, that does not mean we are not equipped to both retain self-control as well as limit the impact they have. For instance, if someone yells at me, I have a choice in how I respond. I am expected as a child of God to respond in a Christlike manner, yet my response will be according to the level of obedience I yield to the Lord.
Being Irish (and don't hold that against me, lol), I have in the past yielded to the much easier path of recompensing evil with evil. Let's face it...it feels good to vent sometimes. But that is not my right any more. My character is supposed to reflect Christ, not the attitudes and indulgence of the flesh.
So perhaps you might expand on that so I can better understand.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
As I sit in church Luke 18:11 always comes to mind. Only as the pharisee I am saying this to an unrepentant sinner. 1 Corinthians 6:9 also comes to mind. But the winner of them all that is for reason of writing this is 1 Corinthians 5:9-14.
I understand. But back up and hear Paul's teaching concerning their salvation. Again, the actions of others should not drive us from the Church, this should be the other way around. If you are decided about attending another Church (and for good reason I believe), keep that issue separate from this one. Here we have in view matters of sin and Church Discipline. Don't guess concerning the awareness of the Pastors, but if you feel that strongly about it, be certain. AS I said before it would be good to consider how yu may be used of the Lord to have a positive influence in their lives whereby they may be "pulled from the fire."
Give it some thought, brother.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
What do we do when this is our own family?
And here I am not sure if you mean Church Family or relatives. It seems you are referring to relatives from what I can see, but perhaps you might make that clear.
If it relatives, we can then divide that into blood and in-law (or outlaws, depending upon perspective...lol). If the former, it should be easier, if the latter, coupled with the fact that you are newly married, great care needs to be taken. One of the dangers of confronting sin is that you are going to come into the cross-hairs yourself. For one to confront sin, they themselves have to first consider themselves, and whether they should confront another. You are in a situation that could have great impact upon your marriage so the need for you to take steps to deal with this so as to establish your position as spiritual head of the household is great. God will grant you the wisdom to properly handle this, of that I am confident. I have known you long enough to see the work He is doing in your life, and I have confidence in you as well, as being one who sincerely seeks to do the Lord's will. So I am confident that you will see this to a positive end, and will await upon the Lord for guidance in this.
One thing that I believe firmly is that as spiritual heads of our households, if we keep our relational priorities in a proper perspective, we will triumph in situations like these. Those priorities are like this:
1- God.
2- Our spouses.
3- Our children.
4- Our family (whether by blood or marriage).
5- the Body of Christ. This one meaning our fellowship with other believers, not to be confused with #1, as some do.
6- our fellow man, meaning our "neighbor," which I think covers pretty much everyone else.
If we keep those priorities in order, we will do well. Within #1 falls our relationship with the Lord, for if we are not right with the Lord, everything that comes after this will be in disarray. We cannot be confident and effective spiritual heads of the household if we ourselves are not diligent to be in the Lord's will, and this is the toughest one, as I am sure you may agree.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
I feel so "niggardly" when they even come over to eat-- referring to the truthfulness that I bear witness in this Scripture.
I would recommend that you and your wife come to agreement in the matter. Start there. Explain your feelings, listen to hers, and using biblical principle try to come to an understanding of what course of action would be best.
If you are in disagreement, take it to the word. For example, if she believes you are over-reacting, state your biblical basis for why you believe you are not. If they are engaged in sexual sin, lace the burden on her to reconcile this with scripture, and you can then reiterate the basis for your feelings.
Thankfully for us there are absolutes that are irrefutable. Sexual sin is sexual sin. That cannot be argued. Scripture is clear that sexuality is between a married man and woman, everything outside of that is...sexual sin.
But what is far more imprtant is...your marriage. I am fortunate that I have a wife that is biblically sound in principle, and if threatened with violence, will yield to my leadership.
Just kidding. I have been blessed with a wife that understands that men must bear the burden of responsibility in the marriage. Paul says nothing about "if a woman does not support her household, she is worse than an infidel," does he. But leadership, especially in a Christian marriage, is never accomplished apart from an understanding of righteousness. If that understanding is cockeyed, everything will be. We do not "rule" or "lead" by force, but by gaining the trust of our wives, even as a young child comes to expect in childlike faith that mom and dad are going to feed them. when a child is properly loved, there is no need to impress upon them that mom and dad will feed them. And when a wife is properly loved, there will also be established a trust. And our doctrine is going to play a major part in that. If we believe we are to be the head of the houselhold, it is important that our wives understand based upon biblical principle they are obedient to, not just our commands, so to speak. Our culture is one that works against this principle. Women work outside of the home. There is often an certain amount of independance established due to this. My wife works. But she understands that despite this, God has called the man to responsibility in the marriage, especially when it comes to spiritual matters.
Concerning them coming over to eat, if they are relatives, then you should resign yourself to the fact that they will be coming over. The responsibility of separation from them due to sin should be handled from a perspective of Church Discipline, which usually means you speak to them (discreetly and in gentleness), then it be brought tbefore Church leadership (and I skipped "two or three witnesses" because if they are family, this is an internal matter of sorts), and at this point, you see where it leads. But despite all of this, I would not refuse to have them over as this may cause hard feelings on your wife's part.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
I have decided to go back to my original church as I found one here of the same organization, as of Sunday, because I feel that I am being subjected to a water downed gospel, I am not having ah ha light bulb moments, and I certainly am not feeling any convictions.
And this I can relate to all too well.
It is necessary for you to be where you can grow. We do not rely upon the fellowship we attend alone for this, but this is an important part of growth. I am guilty, especially when work gets busy, of not being as faithful as I should be in attendance. And when I let go time with God's people and bible study, it has a serious impact on my life. Attending a fellowship where you are not being fed can lead to apathy and that can lead to "spiritual amnesia." And I believe firmly we all go through pretty much the same stages, and this is one that is all to easy to fall into.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
I am not growing in the faith.
Do you really feel this way? You do not feel you have been growing..at all?
Sometimes growth is hard to measure. Sometimes it is the "dry season" in which while we may not see it, there is growth.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
I have not personally confronted either party that I write about, neither am I convinced that this is my duty, but think it better to avoid and go to a place where the gospel speaks to my conscience.
You have to decide this for yourself, though this is something, all aspects considered, that does not just affect you, so it will be necessary to include your wife into the equation. It is important that your wife understand that you need her in this matter, and I hope that this will bring you two closer together. This is an opportunity for you two as one to work out a serious issue which is apparently having great impact on you.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
Any advice on how to handle this or encourage the right words to be spoken, namely towards my wife who probably will be dealing with this issue.
This was the statement which led me to believe you may be worshipping separately, and I hope I am in error about that.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
All I have said thus far to her, is sometimes we must speak as a parent, other times, as a brother or sister in Christ.
Time to have a serious sitdown and discuss this in detail.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
I'm sincerely looking for Christian advice here, how to deal with my emotions, my feelings, but my thinking thus far...
Hope this helps, brother.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
I need edification if I am wrong for thinking this way because I am being led to act out my thoughts, my convictions and beliefs,
Well, I have said what I believe to be some things that should be considered. It is always easy to give advice, harder for one to experience such events personally. But I ma here if you need to talk, brother.
- Shim
- http://s4.zetaboards.com/S_T_Rangers/single/?p=8127394&t=9707861
and if wrong I am in serious trouble here.
No, you are not in serious trouble, of that I am confident. Depending on how you handle it, you might be, lol.
Final point of interest: be slow to speak, slow to wrath, and remember that mercy is expected of us, even when we feel justified in our indignance concerning the sins of others. The most important thing here is your marriage. Events early in a marriage can have great impact for years, and you have the ability to keep this under your control, and to seek wisdom from God. The eventual results will also have lasting impact and consequences, and that can go both ways. It is a good opportunity for growth, so take it slow, brother. Give careful consideration to the biblical basis for your feelings, as sometimes it takes just one other passage to put things into balance.
And speaking of marital consequences, it is time for me to get ready for the morning service. Or else...lol.
Brother, be in the House of the Lord this morning...with your wife. Until you can get this resolved, keep in mind that you two are one, and you guys need to be a united front in every situation. Your love for her is a priority, especially in this tender time of your marriage. She needs you, and may not have the discernment necessary to see this clearly.
Have to get going, hope that helps.
God bless.