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| Jonathan vs Jor-el; fathers | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sun May 16, 2004 5:21 am (154 Views) | |
| Smallvillian | Sun May 16, 2004 5:21 am Post #1 |
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Jonathan's Lady
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I posted this at K-site and wondered what you all thought
:) : I'm sorry, but no one has said why a man who is *not* Clark's father should have any say over anything he does. Perhaps the majority here are teens and cannot relate but a father is the man who raises you and is with you through your life, loves you and teaches you right from wrong. JE has never done any of this. Jonathan has and done a damn fine job without JE. Is it tragic that a mother and father had to give up their son to save him? It sure as heck is. But that doesn't change the fact that they *did* give him up. It's no different than any other adopted child. They become *that* family's child. But JE wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants to send Clark to earth to be raised, loved, and cared for and still have the authority of an actual parent. The biological family can't just show up when the kid's 18 and say "I've decided what you should do with your life and if you don't comply...." I don't care how intelligent JE was supposed to be. He was a fool if thought that would go over well. And all this destiny crapola-- Isn't destiny a preordained path? If what JE is interested in is Clark's true destiny, then he shouldn't *have to* force it. It should just happen naturally. That's the nature of destiny. Jesus was never forced into his role. He accepted it and chose his path. Was it meant to be? Yes. Was there ever a time when God stepped in and said "If you don't do this [insert command here]." I'm thinking of JE's "You *will* obey me." Clark doesn't have to and JE really had a pair to assume he had the right to demand anything from a boy he hardly knew. At most, he knows what Clark's thoughts are *now* but he knows nothing of Clark as a child. Some would say "Well his father was Kryptonian and Clark's Kryptonian so he needs that." Well then I guess black families shouldn't raise white children in a loving home, being different and all? Come on, I can see if Clark were having some kind of identity crisis where he *wanted* JE's insite but he doesn't. He's not sitting thinking 'woe is me. I'm kryptonian surrounded by humans.' He has been adamant about the fact that he *is* Clark Kent not Kal-el. He is human not kryptonian and whether JE likes it or not, it is his choice to make. It is *who* Clark is, not what he is that makes him a hero--which is what he is destined to be. He never needed Jor-el for that, just Jonathan, as we've already seen. That's what I didn't mind about the movie. Clark was old enough to decide that he wanted to know about his past. He made the choice. *That's* destiny. JE didn't force him into anything. |
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| Renee | Sun May 16, 2004 5:42 am Post #2 |
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Don't mess with JS
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Did you really say that over at K-Site? Poor baby, you'll probably get eaten alive. They love their Superman "mythos" (funny word) over there, and Jor-El seems to be a very big part of that! I guess I always thought that JE, or his computerized alter ego, or whatever the heck that thing is, was just trying to tell Clark things he should know, and that all the "You will obey me" stuff was just because, knowing where Clark came from and so forth, he could foresee dangers, problems, etc., that Clark couldn't. I like to hold to the "JE is really good deep down -- he just has a terrible bedside manner" theory, because that's the theory that looks the most promising for Jonathan! So maybe that leads me to take a slightly rosier view of the old despot. However, you do make some good points. He does seem to be doing a lot of forcing. It would be a lot more helpful to Clark if he would just provide a few good, clear explanations, instead of all this "destiny" and "rule with strength" hoopla. Even if he does turn out to be good, he's wasted a lot of time and frightened -- even harmed -- people with his talking in circles and his vaguely threatening remarks. I guess he had to talk that way in order to cause all the complications that have kept the season moving, but it's annoying. Like that horrible story "The Necklace" my sister and I had to read in elementary school, where the couple have their entire lives ruined just because they wouldn't come out and tell the plain truth at the very beginning! If they had there'd be no story, but it almost leaves you thinking, "Fine, I'd RATHER there weren't any story!" :wall: (There really is a connection there -- I think. But maybe you have to be half-asleep like I am right now in order to see it!) |
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| Smallvillian | Sun May 16, 2004 5:44 am Post #3 |
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Jonathan's Lady
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Madsci posted this that the creators said about Jor-el recently: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But Jonathan is never as tough on Clark as his birth father, the spectral disembodied Jor-El is. "That relationship is without love," Millar says firmly. "Its devoid of love and it gets worse as well, in terms of what Jor-El does to the Kent family. But it's trial by fire for Clark. He is the last survivor of a race who self-annihilated, so Jor-El is teaching Clark about the realities of life. I think he sees Earth as a way for Kryptonians to survive, and to prosper forever, in a way." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- :yipe: |
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| Renee | Sun May 16, 2004 5:53 am Post #4 |
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Don't mess with JS
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Really?! Well, there goes my rosy view! How recently was that said, do you know? I was just wondering if he said that pre-"Hereafter," when things started to get worse for the Kents, or pre-"Legacy," when things got even worse than that, or just in the past week or two, which would mean they're going to get REALLY worse!
:( And it's terribly ungrateful of JE, I must say, after all Jonathan's parents did for him and after all Jonathan and Martha did for Clark. I thought the scene where JE "met" Jonathan, so to speak, before Jonathan was born was a kind of a sign that the two of them would really ultimately be on the same side and that JE wouldn't do anything to hurt Jonathan permanently. Well, maybe not! "Congratulations on the baby," my foot! :mad: |
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| Smallvillian | Sun May 16, 2004 7:04 am Post #5 |
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Jonathan's Lady
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Exactly! What a bunch of bull! And the sad thing is that Jor-el *appeared* to be a nice guy when he was *alive.* He fell in love on earth. How in the world could he create an alter-ego that would have such little regard for human life. How could he not realize he would be tearing Clark apart?! For such an advanced society, the people seem pretty stupid. It was in the "yearbook" so I'm not sure if it was something that was said *very* recently or pre "Hereafter" :( |
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| Renee | Sun May 16, 2004 11:59 am Post #6 |
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Don't mess with JS
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Jonathan had it right earlier: "No wonder you destroyed yourselves!" About JE, two possibilities come to mind (they may be way off-base, but I'll throw them out anyway): 1) The whole experience made him bitter and turned him against human beings. But he still shouldn't have been bitter against the Kents, so that doesn't hold up very well. 2) Yes, he seemed like a pretty nice guy, and yes, he really did love Louise. But the fact is, he didn't show any consideration at all for the feelings of her husband, whose only fault that we know of was that he wasn't a very exciting person. Maybe JE's act of taking what he wanted without caring if somebody else got hurt was a sign of things to come? I should watch "Relic" again and bone up on this stuff, but it's not one of my favorites. Louise is pretty much a pain in the neck, and I'm feeling very anti-Jor-El right now, for obvious reasons! |
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| Whitetiger4 | Sun May 16, 2004 4:02 pm Post #7 |
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Smallville Tigress... On the Prowl! *GROWL*
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Well, I don't see how JE can be a nice guy. I mea,n any father that can brand his own son like he did Clark in Exodux is not a nice person in my book! :mad: |
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| Guest | Sun May 16, 2004 4:33 pm Post #8 |
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Unregistered
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I'm not too crazy about Jor-el either in "Smallville." I've seen all the "Superman" movies and cartoons, but Jor-el in this is too much of a bully for my taste. I think that feeling happened when in "Rosetta" Clark read the message in the ship saying that he'd be a conqueror and god among mankind. Clark doesn't want that. He wants to make his own way. Jor-el should take into consideration that his son is not a small child that he can tell what to do. I agree that you respect your parents, but if I was adopted like Clark and someone came saying he was my father I'd have difficulties when he started telling me what to do. I just don't think Jor-el was right to ram his ideas of what his son should be down his throat. He is not going to indear himself to his son that way. |
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| Whitetiger4 | Sun May 16, 2004 10:55 pm Post #9 |
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Smallville Tigress... On the Prowl! *GROWL*
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Yes, I agree, you should respect your parent's, but Joe-El doens't deserve Clark's respect in my opinon. |
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| Smallvillian | Tue May 18, 2004 10:00 am Post #10 |
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Jonathan's Lady
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I cannot believe someone just frikkin compared Clark's situation to strapping a parachute on you baby and throwing it out to rescue it-- Then searching for it for years to discover it has been raised monkeys. ARE WE COMPARING THE KENTS TO MONKEYS?! :chomp: And the situation isn't even the same, minus the monkey analogy! |
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| Renee | Tue May 18, 2004 10:46 am Post #11 |
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Don't mess with JS
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Who said that?? |
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| Smallvillian | Tue May 18, 2004 12:07 pm Post #12 |
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Jonathan's Lady
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BlackIce. It's in the spoiler folder in the JE thread. The last couple of pages are spoiler free you you wanna look :blink: |
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| Renee | Tue May 18, 2004 2:02 pm Post #13 |
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Don't mess with JS
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Well, a pox on BlackIce, then!
:angry: Can't go over there yet -- I don't trust myself so close to spoilers. I might have a relapse. But I trust that you chewed him or her out properly! |
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