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QoTW 12/05/04
Topic Started: Sun Dec 5, 2004 12:04 pm (346 Views)
Smallvillian
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Jonathan's Lady
If you could have a do-over moment for Jonathan--meaning you just didn't like what the writers had him do/say--which would it be/ how would you have done it differently? :)
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miss_linda_lee
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Full-time Supergirl
Hmmm, I'll need to think about that . . . . :)
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Jonathan Fan
Can't Stay Away
That whole deal with Jor-el, hands down. I don't like how they did that and I thought Jor-el helping Jonathan just so Jonathan could give Clark back to him was really stupid. I was expecting Jor-el to take over Jonathan. Not the way the writers planned.
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miss_linda_lee
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Okay, *that's* the one I was looking for!!!

Jonathan knew that Clark could stop Red K Clark with green k, so there was no reason to go to Jor-El for help. BDF (Big Dumb Farmer) at work!
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Smallvillian
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Jonathan's Lady
That's a good one. I could buy that they thought Clark would just run away from them--already having been foiled by green k before--but he got pretty close to Jonathan and didn't seem worried. It was sort of strange that they just jumped to the conclusion that there was no hope of stopping him without trying to catch him first. If they had done that, and failed, I could see Jonathan going to JE out of desparation but not before that. And I just have to believe Jonathan didn't know what he was agreeing to, that he was just promising anything and would deal with with the consequences later--as he did.
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Renee
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Don't mess with JS
Well, that's sure what they made it look like.

JE: "Are you willing to sacrifice anything . . .?"
Jonathan: "Yes!"
JE: ZAP!

That's the condensed version, but you get the point. The way it played out, Jonathan didn't know beforehand. And once he did find out, he had no intention of following through -- the rest of the season made that clear.

I can't agree that it was dumb of Jonathan to seek help from JE. You have to remember that he'd already used green K on Clark before when he (Clark) was in that state. So he knew Clark would be expecting it now. When they met in LuthorCorp, if Clark had had the slightest feeling that there was any green K around -- and he can usually detect its presence from that distance -- he would have been a hundred miles away before Jonathan could have blinked. And don't forget that this time Clark was much more "drugged" than the last time -- he'd been wearing that ring for three months, as opposed to a couple of days. I think Jonathan knew he'd have one chance to get anywhere near Clark, and he couldn't take the risk of blowing it and having him disappear forever. He had to be able to meet Clark on an equal playing field, so to speak.

So despite how much the deal has hurt Jonathan, I can't see it as a bad storyline. A depressing one, yes, but not a bad one. It made sense to me that Jonathan would pick the most effective method he could think of to get Clark back.
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nappy
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July 2007......too far away....:(
Yeah, that wasn't the wiseset decision on Jonathan's part.
But it did help because at that point he didnt' know where Clark was.
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Renee
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Don't mess with JS
If I could give him a do-over, it would be this line to Martha from "Nocturne": "Oh, I understand. Farm life's gotten just a little bit too boring for you, hasn't it?"

Lord knows I was on his side in the argument -- having her work for Lionel was a harebrained idea from the beginning. But that just sounded snippy. And it was totally off-topic, too, because they'd already established that it wasn't the idea of her working outside the home that bugged him -- it was the idea of her working for Lionel.

How would I do it differently? I wouldn't have had that plotline at all! :) But if forced to use it, I would have had him stick to the subject in that conversation. (And while I was at it, I would have had her explain why it was such a good idea to work for a known crook who had already blackmailed the two of them. :whatever: )
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Smallvillian
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Jonathan's Lady
That's a very good one too :) Gosh, I'm not sure what my do-over would be. Maybe the conversation he had with Lex in Reaper. That was too cold even given his dislike of Lex. If I could do it over, I'd have Jonathan listen while he continued working but not really say much, even if he didn't believe what Lex was saying, then keep his ending line the same "Clark's a good kid and I don't want that to change." I think it would have been just as effective. Thats one of the few times when I felt Jonathan was done a real disservice by the writers.
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Renee
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Don't mess with JS
Well, I guess when you get right down to it, they can't show him as perfect -- much as some of us like to think he's perfect, or at least next door to perfect. ;) (Including yours truly.) He does have faults, and the presence of Luthors tends to bring them to the surface, just like in the example I used. Your version of the "Reaper" conversation would have shown him in a better light, but I guess if he never got mad at Lex, then the good conversations they've had -- like the one at the end of that episode -- wouldn't mean as much, because we wouldn't know how hard Jonathan is struggling to overcome his mistrust and dislike. (Same thing in "Insurgence" -- he's too hard on Lex at the beginning, but that means that his apology later shows real humility and character growth.) Does that make sense?
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Smallvillian
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Jonathan's Lady
I know what you mean. I wouldn't want him to get teary-eyed or anything because that wouldn't be Jonathan either lol but I think what really struck me as 'not like Jonathan' is when he said "Am I supposed to feel sorry for you?" Jonathan knows how cold and calculating Lionel is, and I would think that even if he believed Lex wasn't being totally honest with him, he wouldn't have said something so dismissive. He had a difficult father-son relationship, too, and his father wasn't Lionel. I'm not saying they should have had a bonding moment, but I think the Jonathan we got to know later on just isn't like that. He may have begrudgingly listened and had very vocal body language lol, but I don't think he would totally dismiss what Lex was saying.

Speaking of--has anyone noticed that Jonathan is the only character to grow and change very much?
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Renee
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Don't mess with JS
Now that's a really intriguing point. How are you defining "grow"? Because we've seen some characters change and develop in certain ways -- Lex comes to mind -- but I'm not sure I could say they've grown. But Chloe has possibly developed a little more patience and maturity. And then there's Lana, who just sort of jumps around like peas on a hot skillet -- that is, always trying to reinvent herself but always staying the same underneath!

I know -- leave it to an English major to make you haul out the thesaurus. :rolleyes:

But I don't think there's any doubt that Jonathan has grown, by any definition -- except perhaps by the definition of the Jonathan-haters. But he could go to Calcutta as Mother Teresa's replacement and they STILL wouldn't like him. :whatever: Anyway, I like that you brought that up, because it's something that often gets overlooked.
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Smallvillian
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Jonathan's Lady
Well, I say "grow" in two different ways.

1) We see new sides to him but he is still our Jonathan (unlike Lana who they tried to give "growth" and completely rewrote :whatever:) Legacy, Suspect--we see that he can be very unsure of himself and insecure under the right conditions and under those conditions tends to keep to himself, blame himself. We see that despite his usual confidence, he is completely vulnerable when he feels he has failed in his role as father/husband.

2) We see actual changes from past behavior. He realizes Clark is growing up and we see him give him room to grow, to make mistakes. He even gives up any say over who Clark reveals his secret to. He gives Lex more benefit of the doubt than he used to. He recognizes his own limitations and accepts help when he knows he needs it without feeling guilty.

:)
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Renee
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Don't mess with JS
Well said -- that makes a lot of sense. I think that, looking at it in that light, you could say he's had the most organic character growth (is "organic" the word I want? I think it is) of anyone on the show. That is, while the writers are making the other characters change in ways that often seem artifical and forced -- and don't even always last very long -- Jonathan's been the one to show steady and consistent character development. No matter how he changes, he's still recognizably Jonathan in every episode.

For instance, you mentioned "Legacy" -- I remember reading the episode descriptions beforehand and thinking, "Jonathan withdraws from his family?? That's just not possible!" But they made it work. Because it was the parts of his character that we were already familiar with -- chiefly his love for Clark and his sensitive conscience -- that made him feel badly enough to withdraw.

Now if they could just master that technique with other characters!
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Smallvillian
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Jonathan's Lady
Yes, organic is a great word :D But honestly, I think I give more credit to JS than the writers. I think he argues for his character and he's been around long enough to know that sometimes that's necessary. I mean, look at that one article where he said the director told him to look at Clark for approval and he said basically "He's my son. I don't need his approval. I'm not looking at him." Or in, I think, Perry, when Jonathan is supposed to let Clark wander off alone with him, and he said "My guy isn't going to just let some stranger wander around his farm. He would be there."--and Jonathan was put in that scene.

I don't know that the others really do that. Clark's character has been pretty damaged and Lana's is beyond repair. Maybe if they had put up a fight about some things, we'd be better off. Jonathan is certainly better off.
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LivvieLovesClark
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Owner of the flying pink monkeys!
preach is sista! LOL.
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Renee
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Don't mess with JS
Livvie, you're back! :grouphug: We missed you around here. Where've you been, girl?
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LivvieLovesClark
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Owner of the flying pink monkeys!
ummmm...hiding?
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