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New Mvp Rule
Topic Started: Jun 4 2014, 07:48 PM (2,740 Views)
Squee913
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It comes to the Staff's attention that many people in the past have misunderstood who should be sent to the MVP tournament. Some teams would send whoever they felt had the best chance of winning no matter if they really deserved it or not. Others would send whoever they liked the best instead of who really earned the spot. Remember, the MVP tournament is not supposed to be taken too seriously. It is a slap stick event intended to show off the seasons best performers in a silly event where anything can happen. IF you are in it to win it, you are doing it wrong.

Now that we have actual stats, we have decided to enact a simple rule. Your highest damaging player automatically goes to the MVP. While who is an MVP is sometimes subjective, it is hard to argue that the highest damaging player is not MVP material. The MVP is not who you liked best or who you think will win. It should be the person that stepped onto the field week after week and performed best. The highest average damage is the simplest way to tell this.

Some people may not be the biggest fan of this, but this is the only way to keep teams from violating the whole point of the MVP tournament. In addition it will help to ensure we see new face at the tournament instead of seeing the same people year after year because they are good 1 on 1 fighters.

So, here is the list of everyone going to the MVP tournament:

Androids: Cell
Blades: Cyborg Tao
Buus: Kid Buu
Cold: Frieza
Derp: Dodoria
Dragonball Warriors: Nam
ED: Mid Goku
Ginyu Force: Recoome
Gohans: Teen Gohan
Majins: Majuub
Muscle: The Rosh
Nameks: Tambourine
Rugrats: Goten
Saiyans: Scouter vegeta
SSJs: End Vegeta
Vals: Fasha
Edited by Squee913, Jun 6 2014, 11:20 PM.
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Faemles
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Hypothetical Season

Team Hypo was 5/5 at the end and sat down to find their MVP. They have 4 players on the team

Consistent 50,000
Problem child 25,000
Solid 40,000
Clutch 47,500

This was there lineup all season.

MR. Consistent always started the matches and always got his team the lead doing 50,000 damage without fail.

Young lad Problem Child's damage swung drastically from almost nothing to around 40,000 no one knew weather he would come out and pull his weight or not... more often than not he lost the lead Consistent always got them.

Give or take a couple thousand damage, solid always came out and paid for himself.

Clutch... Matches usually rested on his shoulders... He always did great. When Problem child didn't do so well he had to pick up the slack, sometimes it wasn't enough, but when ever they lost he always did 50,000-60,000 damage. Other times it was enough and he pulled it out. Sometimes though the team didn't need him to be amazing Problem child pulled his weight and Solid did a bit extra and he only did 25,000 not because that was all he could do, but that was all there was to do.

Average damage, especially in a game such as this, while a good indicator, is not a perfect measure of 'value'. Can I think of a better broad rule to replace average damage? No. Do we need to? No. There is not hundreds of teams submitting their players to the Tournament, there are 16. This isn't difficult guys we can keep this rule as a guideline, and if teams out there feel it doesn't suit their team they can bring it up, with evidence and examples of why the lower AvgDamage player deserves it. Now I personally think that Future gohan instead of Teen is a little far as Teen does 8,000 more on average, also obsidian has only argued with stats even more flawed than Avgdamage. I don't think you will be able to argue with stats but with matches from the season to show that player being more influential in the teams success than the higher damaging player.


And guys seriously this thread is degrading in to so many off topic hypotheticals (only mine are allowed :P ) that may never even happen and if we ever do we can deal with it then... or at least in another thread.

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Squee913
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again, that sounds reasonable until 5 teams come to us with arguments and we only approve 2. The other three teams will complain that their subjective reason was just as good as the 2 that we did approve and it will look like we are playing favorite since our decision is only based on subjective reasoning.

Lets say you feel clutch deserves to go based on what you said. Let's say the staff disagrees. What reason would we give? We just felt it was not enough? The team, who obviously does feel it is good enough would feel cheated. On the other hand, if there is one set on concrete standards, no one can feel like the staff was biast or unfair.

We, as a staff, are not about to start telling some teams they have to send their highest damaging player and other teams they don't have to all based on subjective views. That is a recipe for disaster. Everyone will be subject to the same conditions.
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Faemles
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Ok as I see it then, we have two options:

1 We go by strickly by highest average damage no exceptions.

Pros: Easy fast streamlined no grey area

Cons: We will be knowingly accepting a flawed system the degree of that flaw is debatable but we will send people who are not the most valuable. People will be angry just look at this tread for evidence of that.

2: We use Avg damage as a guideline with an some sort of 'appeal' system for exceptions.

To limit ridiculous appeals to even try the player they want to switch in would be at most 5,000 damage away (There are 5 teams that apply)

It should be made clear that appeals are not likely to pass unless the team gives overwhelming evidence to support their claim.

Rejected appeals should be well explained by the staff as to why they were rejected.

Pros: Teams will feel Like they are being listened to and all characters that deserve to go do so. A more 'Democratic' solution

Cons: More work for the staff and teams building a case to appeal. Unhappy teams that failed in there attempt, though happier that they could try. Possible 'grey' area.

Teams should have the opportunity to at least try to convince you that the player they truly think is the most valuble on their team goes to the mvp, They know their team better they are there week in and week out analyzing their team they know who made the biggest contribution to their success.

And you staff be there to smack down people who are wrong ("stupid" -Rebel) or those sneaking peoples who just want their best 1 on 1 fighter in there.



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ViperKang
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Here's the thing. The only "flaw" in average damage is human error in the fact that someone may miss some damage here or there while counting and so maybe the full damage of a match isn't reflected. But we HAVE a baseline. EVERY character has 40,000 damage to their name. Period. So even if somehow someone on the stats team miscalculates something it is VERY hard to argue that a character that consistently kills another character every single game all season and becomes the highest damaging character because of it does not deserve to be called MVP.

In the words of Rebel himself: What does MVP mean?

It does not mean "I really feel this guy did the best for our team." It means that this character when out there and for 15 weeks did more damage than anyone else on your team. It means that even with derp weeks this character was pound for pound your most valuable player because they brought in the damage. Consistently.

And trust me I understand where you are coming from in saying maybe the MVP isn't actually the person you THINK was your most valuable. I PERSONALLY feel Broly was our value player. We relied on him to be solid in our line up and to be there to swing games either heavily in our favor OR try to swing it back to us so we didn't lose. But that is an opinion and opinions can be shrouded in dishonesty. Most characters can be argued for FEELING like an MVP while in the background you just want that character in there cause you think they'll be best suited to 1v1. But the average damage stat? It's concrete.

EVERY character has a baseline of 40,000 life. Every bar is 10,000 without question. And I have faith in the competency of our stats team to do more than eye ball the life bar and do a guesstimate. Which means that highest average damage is unbiased and wholly fair because MVP stands for best player period. The one who brought home the most bacon. In my case it was Roshi and I cannot argue with it. In Gohan's case it's Teen Gohan. And like Squee has said. The ONLY argument that has been brought forward to counter Teen Gohan is a PERSONAL feeling that he was not the most valuable. Unless we have a system that is as unmoving and unbiased as average damage that is shown to be BETTER then I honestly don't see any argument that could be made that will cancel the use of highest average damage for MVP decisions.

Remember again. This is supposed to be a mindless tournament where you just sit back, relax, and have fun with the characters representing the teams. And highest average damage is the best hands off approach to that spirit we have. And I myself have not seen any suggestion come forward that isn't shot down by the current system.
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Burnarator
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Quote:
 
We will be knowingly accepting a flawed system...

1. It's already been debated, and accepted by the staff. So this rule is in effect this season. Period. There is no way we will re-think our decision because some people don't like it. If you want to make a case about changing your MVP, make it. The legitimacy of that character will be discussed, and we will let you know if we are fine with changing. This is all we are going to budge on the subject this season, and you are wasting your time if you think we will change it.

2. How is the system flawed? Because some characters might have a little bit of extra damage during one week? Which Squee has proven only skews it very slightly. Even then, EVERY TEAM does it. Every character HAS done it in the past. I Have yet to see any evidence that this is a "flawed system".

Quote:
 
Teams should have the opportunity to at least try to convince you...

Like above, we have already stated that if you make a valid case, we will consider it. We will pick it apart, and state whether we agree or not.

Quote:
 
And I myself have not seen any suggestion come forward that isn't shot down by the current system.

This.
Edited by Burnarator, Jun 11 2014, 10:51 PM.
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ClawedRebel
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Faemles
 
It should be made clear that appeals are not likely to pass unless the team gives overwhelming evidence to support their claim.
Overwhelming evidence! Convince the staff! Go!

...

...

Ah. Okay. Guess we're going with highest damage? Right?

Seriously, if you think there's overwhelming evidence somewhere that you're most damaging player over 15 weeks is not your MVP then by all means. But you're going to have to make one hell of an argument to not be beaten by "Most damage, 15 seasons... End of story." Wiggle room of 5k? That's what? An extra 75k damage over the whole season? Pfft. That's not "wiggle room", that's a nice empty church hall.

Faemles
 
And you staff be there to smack down people who are wrong ("stupid" -Rebel) or those sneaking peoples who just want their best 1 on 1 fighter in there.
Haven't said that! Not even once! Publicly anyway. 'sides, we don't smack people down as such. We respond reasonably and logically... (some of us)... to people who disagree. At the end of the day there's a reason why we, as the staff, are who debates and talks about the rules to be implemented and how the League is progressing and it isn't put up for general debate. This idea was one Squee, Burn and I talked about before we recorded the Z-Cast, we all agreed. We took it to the rest of the staff, some of them disagreed at the time and wanted a better or different solution, same as you. We argued it out. This thread isn't a debate thread for you guys to argue with us, as such. It's an announcement. As Burn says, this isn't changing this season. You guys are more than welcome to argue as much as you like. But so far this thread has singularly failed to come up with a convincing argument that we, as the staff, haven't already talked about in one form or another. Or, in the case of Huzzah, not one that stands up to me asking Squee "Are you sure? 'cause I'm seriously not convinced that's such a good idea. Here's why."
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Squee913
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What my nerve frayed friends are actually saying is that many of you are simply stating the same argument over and over without actually addressing the reason why this was implemented in the first place. This rule is in effect for this season and you are welcome to try to change it for next season, but you are going to have to do quite a bit better than you have been.

Overall average damage is a very accurate measurement of how a character did over the course of a season and no one has brought up any compelling evidence to counter that fact. Faemles, you are severely underestimating the danger of letting the staff make subjective rulings over what teams can break the rules. Unhappy teams that failed in there attempt, though happier that they could try? I wish! You don't see the PMs I get when I tell a team they can't use a player they feel fits their team spirit but the staff doesn't, or when I tell a coach their build was too late to make it or illegal so I changed it. As long as they agree with me, people are more than willing to except my expertise in how to best run an online, competitive Esport. The second they don't agree with me, I become an ignorant hack who does not care about anyone but myself and enjoy doing things just because I have power. It is amazing how fast people can turn on you, and what you suggest is a sure fire way to get even more PMs like that. As I said, you are welcome to suggest alternatives, but everyone must follow the same conditions.

And as the others said, how is this system inherently flawed? No one has given one good example of why going by average damage is not a good, non-subjective way to determine MVPs. It is fair to every team and everyone can understand it. Perhaps you simply feel that people will be fine with us telling some people yes and others no all based on how we feel. If that is the case, then I beg you to consider that I have been running this league for a very long time now, and if I have learned anything it is this:

1. I must be very careful of bringing the hammer down on someone in public. Sometimes it is necessary, but the more I do it, the more I look like a tyrant and the less people will respect me when I do.

2. I must be fair to every single team. The only reason my words have any weight at all is because most people trust me to do what is right for the league as a whole and not what is good for my favorite team or teams. The second people lose that perception, the entire league falls apart.

3. Never make decisions in a vacuum. All jokes aside, I am not a genius. I can be charismatic behind a microphone and I can be damn convincing when I want to be, but I will never claim to be able to see every angle of an argument or idea. That is why i made a staff and populated it with people that had convinced me they were dedicated to the whole league, and not just one team. Every single idea is dissected, examend and set on fire before we put it into effect.

4. (and most important to the topic at hand) Any time you force teams to comply with something, have damn good evidence to back up that rule. Never ever say, "Do this because i said so and that is all you need to know." Point to why they must do it and why them doing it is the best course of action for the league as a whole.


What you suggest is a violation of rule 4. Having the staff rule on exceptions that have no clear conditions is comparable to telling people, "This is your MVP because i said so and that is all you need to know."

Finally, considering that this thread has over 1700 views and only 4 people have raised any sort of serious complaint, I would say it is safe to assume that this rule only upsets a vast minority of people. In fact, 4 people out of all the active members of this league is such a small number that the fact we continue to address your concerns in this thread is a testament to how much we care about the people in this league.
Edited by Squee913, Jun 12 2014, 03:20 AM.
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Faemles
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First and foremost I feel I must apologize to Rebel, that comment was intended to be humorous, I didn't express that very we'll and I didn't mean anything by it.

Alright here's where I'm at, Yes average damage is the best no non-subjective system for determining a MVP... But a few of these avg values are in the subjective area already, For instance, Dedoria only did 800 more average damage than 19... That is less than 1 smash attack,1 grab, hell even stun moves can do that much damage, coupling that with Dedoria was usually a starter and 19 a closer.. Well see my example above. Those values are so close I bet that if they wanted to derp could make a fairly convincing case for 19.

All I want is Exception Form 1A


Edited by Faemles, Jun 12 2014, 11:54 AM.
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xsithspawnx
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Quote:
 
Alright here's where I'm at, Yes average damage is the best no non-subjective system for determining a MVP... But a few of these avg values are in the subjective area already, For instance, Dedoria only did 800 more average damage than 19... That is less than 1 smash attack,1 grab, hell even stun moves can do that much damage, coupling that with Dedoria was usually a starter and 19 a closer..

A difference in the average damage, no matter how small, is by definition an objective matter, not a subjective one. Being objective is dealing with the thing itself. Being subjective is dealing with one's thoughts, biases, and opinions about the thing. Objectively, Dodoria has an average damage 800 higher than 19, end of story. Subjectively, you might feel that small of a difference should be offset by other extenuating circumstances. Because people were using subjective reasoning to manipulate the spirit of the tournament the staff decided to stick with strictly objective requirements.

Quote:
 
All I want is Exception Form 1A


The staff already said multiple times that a team can state their case and try to convince them if they think another player should go instead. They just have to make a damn good case. I don't see how this is still a discussion.
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ClawedRebel
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Faemles
 
For instance, Dedoria only did 800 more average damage than 19...
800 average damage. Over 15 weeks that's 12k damage total in order to achieve that average. Those two things are completely different. By all means argue, but at least think about it and do the maths on it first. Besides which, as Sith says, numbers are by definition objective. 12k is 12k no matter what way you swing it.
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