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Who is the smartest person to have ever lived?
Topic Started: Oct 14 2011, 03:12 PM (4,210 Views)
RandomMan1
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Dantos4
May 9 2012, 03:29 PM
Meh, as I have also said. The guy had a point. Everything he has said would happen if they lost WW2, has happened.

History is written by the victor my friend. The victor's propaganda becomes fact, the loser's fact becomes propaganda.
Huh-fucking-zah, give him a medal why don't ya.

But in all seriousness, I will admit Hitler was a great orator (I don't even speak German, and yet hearing one of his speeches gave me goosebumps). Even so, it does not make up for the atrocities we know were commited under his reign.
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Grey
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Yes, if there is one thing that I think we can all agree on is that Hitler was one of the greatest speakers in history.
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Dantos4
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Firstly, Hitler's attitude and actions were not very different than that of other countries. Did you know that the U.K. had "detention camps" in Israel to hold Jews? Over 70 nations have expelled all Jews, on multiple occasions for some.

You also blame everything on Hitler, did you know that his original idea was to put all the Jews, mentally disabled, homosexual, etc in confined places? It was his cabinet who changed the idea when Madagascar was taken over.

Also, do you have any idea of the anti-Semitic attitude that most countries had back then? You think ONLY German soldiers oversaw the concentration camps? Wrong.

I hope you know that McMerica has killed far more civilians in the last 50 years than Germany killed non-Jews. 5.9 million Jews killed, 6 million people killed in total.

People are responsible for their own actions. Not because "Hitler told them to". The people in France, Belgium, Poland, etc etc who handed the Jewish populations over willingly didn't seem to mind that they weren't being killed. People only kill other people when they believe in the cause. As I said, fact becomes propaganda, propaganda becomes fact.

Hitler and Naziism are scapegoats for the attitude that occurred at the time. I'm not saying that killing 6 million people is okay, far from it, but at the same time... where there's smoke, there's fire.
Edited by Dantos4, May 9 2012, 03:51 PM.
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Grey
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Yes, you are right on pretty much everything. Looking at things from your perspective, I guess we can applaud him for his merits.
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Warden of Wisdom
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The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. -Carl Sagan
The topic is the smartest person ever, not the person with the most politically correct morals, so Hitler does qualify upon looking at his more intelligent ideas. I agree with Dantos that so many more countries have done the same if not very similar things to the genocide of the Jewish during the Holocaust. Take, for example, the Japanese American concentration camps (although Roosevelt did give the people held there 30,000$ each after). And some mass genocidal rulers and the likes are seen as heros today, like Columbus and G. A. Custer here in America.
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RandomMan1
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Dantos4
May 9 2012, 03:50 PM
Firstly, Hitler's attitude and actions were not very different than that of other countries. Did you know that the U.K. had "detention camps" in Israel to hold Jews? Over 70 nations have expelled all Jews, on multiple occasions for some.

You also blame everything on Hitler, did you know that his original idea was to put all the Jews, mentally disabled, homosexual, etc in confined places? It was his cabinet who changed the idea when Madagascar was taken over.

Also, do you have any idea of the anti-Semitic attitude that most countries had back then? You think ONLY German soldiers oversaw the concentration camps? Wrong.

I hope you know that McMerica has killed far more civilians in the last 50 years than Germany killed non-Jews. 5.9 million Jews killed, 6 million people killed in total.

People are responsible for their own actions. Not because "Hitler told them to". The people in France, Belgium, Poland, etc etc who handed the Jewish populations over willingly didn't seem to mind that they weren't being killed. People only kill other people when they believe in the cause. As I said, fact becomes propaganda, propaganda becomes fact.

Hitler and Naziism are scapegoats for the attitude that occurred at the time. I'm not saying that killing 6 million people is okay, far from it, but at the same time... where there's smoke, there's fire.
I can give a counter argument for almost all these points.

Yes, I realize anti-semantic ideas went farther back than Hitler, look at medieval Europe, or the sacking of Jerusalem by Babylon, heck, the Soviets did the exact same thing to the Cossacks a few years after the war.

Hitler was doing that for awhile, he even went after Catholic priests and Romanians (Romanians had actual Aryan blood, when Hitler realized that the actual Aryans were nothing like the perfect race, he began to take it out on the Romanians). They all suffered the same fate as the Jews anywas. And don't go using his cabinet as scapegoats for his actions, he knew full well what he was agreeing to, and you can bet that those "confined places" were the same as concetration camps.

A) Don't call us McAmericans, you imply that we are all lazy, fat, materialistic losers. B) I'll agree America has killed many people, I'll also agree Britain has too. But, here's something. The Final Solution ran from (let's say) 1940-1945. Is it truly fair to compare 5 or 6 years with 50? I don't think so? Also, let's say Germany won, how many people do you think would be dead right now?

Mabye the reason the Jews didn't seem to mind was becasue A) They were told it (the ghettos) was for their own protection, and B) The Nazis did a reasonably good job at covering up their actions. Heck, citizens living a few miles from the camps claim they had no idea (though amny people think that was bull).

Believe me, we all know that Jews have been the victims of many injustices, thing is, Hitler and the Nazis killed more innocent Jews in 5-6 years, than centuries of hatred. That is what makes them stand out. Though, frankly, I think I hate the WW2 Japanese a bit more.
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Dantos4
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RandomMan1
May 9 2012, 04:10 PM
I can give a counter argument for almost all these points.

Yes, I realize anti-semantic ideas went farther back than Hitler, look at medieval Europe, or the sacking of Jerusalem by Babylon, heck, the Soviets did the exact same thing to the Cossacks a few years after the war.

Hitler was doing that for awhile, he even went after Catholic priests and Romanians (Romanians had actual Aryan blood, when Hitler realized that the actual Aryans were nothing like the perfect race, he began to take it out on the Romanians). They all suffered the same fate as the Jews anywas. And don't go using his cabinet as scapegoats for his actions, he knew full well what he was agreeing to, and you can bet that those "confined places" were the same as concetration camps.

A) Don't call us McAmericans, you imply that we are all lazy, fat, materialistic losers. B) I'll agree America has killed many people, I'll also agree Britain has too. But, here's something. The Final Solution ran from (let's say) 1940-1945. Is it truly fair to compare 5 or 6 years with 50? I don't think so? Also, let's say Germany won, how many people do you think would be dead right now?

Mabye the reason the Jews didn't seem to mind was becasue A) They were told it (the ghettos) was for their own protection, and B) The Nazis did a reasonably good job at covering up their actions. Heck, citizens living a few miles from the camps claim they had no idea (though amny people think that was bull).

Believe me, we all know that Jews have been the victims of many injustices, thing is, Hitler and the Nazis killed more innocent Jews in 5-6 years, than centuries of hatred. That is what makes them stand out. Though, frankly, I think I hate the WW2 Japanese a bit more.
As far as I am aware, he did not murder 5.9 million Romanians... So they didn't suffer the same fate. He didn't try and exterminate the Romanians. He believed that the historically "slavic" races were inferior. Still wrong, but a subtle difference. They also went after Romania because of it's large population of "Romani" or 'Gypsies', whom the Nazi's saw as contributing nothing to society.

The Aryan race thing confuses me greatly. Much of it is propaganda to be honest, when you look at the facts. The only thing Nazi Germany really went after with a passion was Judaism, Gypsies & Russian POW's.

For example, there is nothing which states that they must be "Aryan" in the stereotypical sense (E.g. Blonde hair, blue eyes) as A. Hitler himself didn't have these traits and B. The stereotypical "Blonde hair - blue eyes" people, the Scandanavians, were announced as being a part of the Aryan race long, long after the whole concept was introduced. Another example: The Nazi's had an anti-black policy as they were not part of the "Aryan race", yet the Hitler youth had black members.

From what I've read, the Aryan race wasn't so much about colour, but more pure genetic Darwinism. The strong will conquer, the weak will fall. Ironic, considering Nazi Germany promoted National Socialism.

The Madagascar plan was exactly the same as what has happened with Israel. 1905 Israel had just 11% Jewish population, now it has just under 90% Jews (although admittedly, there are sub-groups of Judaism)

It implies what you take it to imply. I was actually referring to the symbolic dominance of capitalism in the rampaging capitalist giant that is McDonalds.

It is a very different matter. The reason I used the word "civilians" is that Nazi Germany did not consider their targets to be civilian, but the enemy. Take your hated Japanese, the US killed more people with those 2 atomic bombs than the Nazi's killed non-Jews in 5 years. Fair comparison?

If Germany had won, I think there would be a whole lot of un-neededly massacred Jews, disabled, gay people. However, we would also have a much fairer society based on what they had planned. Let's put it this way... if the Roman's had failed, would we be complaining about the fact that they killed thousands of people or that we didn't have roads?

I'm not justifying killing people in any way, but in some respects Hitler had a point. Henry Ford was one of Hitler's main financial aids, for example. He even published an anti-Semitist book which was extremely popular reading in Nazi Germany. The problem they both had was that they saw Judaism as a whole as the problem. Maybe it was back then, I wasn't there so I can't be sure.
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Chocl8215
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Man of great chocolate
Look, if you guys want to debate morals that's fine, but can you at least not get away from what this topic is supposed to be about? I'd say I can agree that hitler was a very intelligent man. Evil, but intelligent. and if you want to vote for him, I did put up an "other" option.
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Dantos4
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Sorry Chocl :P
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Chocl8215
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Man of great chocolate
Dantos4
May 9 2012, 05:49 PM
Sorry Chocl :P
I knew it was going to happen, it always does. If you want to discuss morals then I suggest finding or making a moral based topic. But this is about intellect which, as einstein knows well, does not know morality.
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