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Eating in the Britainlands.; What?
Topic Started: Mar 23 2012, 01:36 PM (6,948 Views)
Grey
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I think I will throw my hat into this.

People in America hate the idea of socialism because of the very roots of the American mentality. In America the "wild" west was settled with individual men with guns. Civilization followed them. This is largely different to, say Canada. In Canada the west was settled by the Canadian mounted forces. People came after civilization. That is a big reason why there is this spirit of individualism in America, and why it isn't in Canada, and why they tend to be more socialist.

To add onto this, pretty much the most obvious negative example of socialism from the American perspective is Josef Stalin, and the USSR. That is an obvious figurehead for an anti-socialist/communist society. People in America are worried that Obama-care is the start of some kind of fall into a Leninist society.

In my personal opinion communism and capitalism, in their purist forms, are both oligarchical freedomless societies. It is in the moderation of some kind of socialist democracy that the best of both are to be found. A capitalist system, except more run by the middle class then the upper class, threw unions mostly.

To just lay out my thoughts, the upper-class in America has way to much power, being able to anonymously give as much money as they want to presidential candidates, hire many lobbyists to get their way (Which they do), among other things. It just makes no sense that the upper class have the same tax rate as the lower class. Presidential candidate Mitt Romney makes as much in one day that the average family makes in a year, yet he only pain about 14% in taxes.

Sorry if this is rambly or whatever, it is late (For me) and I am tired.

You two are going at the timles argument,
For: "In socialism the poor get raised up!"
Against: "In socialism the able get tied down!"
I think we can all agree on that a socialist system needs boundaries and rules. I think the big debate is mostly the market, whether it is a capitalist free market or a more socialist one. As I said above I feel that a capitalist system is best, but only if it has governmental boundaries on larger companies practices, and subsidizes a lot of smaller businesses. If Richie Rich can't buy a solid gold hotel then to bad for him, as Mr. Doe needs food on the table.

Person R and person P come from a middle class family in a country with the market I have described. Person R is smart and capable, whereas person P is fairly average. Person R can move up, but person P doesn't fall by the wayside.
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Kagurodraven
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Can I just point out the kicker of why America's current tax system is utterly broken?
The upper-class can get out of paying a far larger percent of their taxes than the lower-class. There have been documented cases where rich powerful CEOs payed less in pure monitary terms than their Secretary who made basicly crap.
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Dantos4
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Greysoul. I hate you.
(I don't really but I'll never admit it!!! :P)
I just wrote a large paragraph to RandomMan which you summed up in a few points. I wish I was that concise.

My whole point was that classes would be effectively eliminated. Guy A wouldn't be struggling as the would get paid more as he works more hours (based on his hard work trait). The whole philosophy of purist Marxist socialism is "From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution". No longer would you have a higher class which contributed very little other than supervision of the lower classes and providing an outlet for materialism (which would be eliminated in socialism).

But yes, I agree Greysoul. We would never reach a conclusion as purist capitalism and purist socialism have so many flaws it is ridiculous.

I agree mostly with what you said at the end. A system whereby people can individually achieve, possibly on a smaller scale. Maybe a system without large companies at all? Or with strict competitive rules regarding market share/profit. I disagree with having a system based around profit, rather than people's needs. However, there is the issue of actually having an economy and not going into debt :/

I agree completely Kagurgodraven! Why should one guy contribute less to society if he is making more? I understand that he has earned his money, but he also has more of it which could be used to feed people and save lives instead of buying flashy cars! :P

Actually... I have an idea. I'm not sure what to call it to be honest (that will be the first decision :P)... but I'd by lying if I hadn't imagined being in charge of my own country and creating it from the ground up.

If you guys would find it fun, I'd like to create a topic of people either individually creating countries with political/socio-economic systems etc. Or a topic where we could "create" our own country from the ground up, debating things like political systems, economic systems, laws, liberty levels, etc etc. A "Government roleplay" of sorts. Maybe after its created, somebody could be appointed as DM to give us scenario's to deal with?
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hjk561
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He rules
Oh yeah! Shotgun DM :P
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Grey
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That is insane, hilarious, and philosophically thought provoking all at the same time. I'm game.
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RandomMan1
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That would be fun. I've always been a fan of nation-simulators.
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Dantos4
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Yay! It probably won't go as fast as the DBZ RP (Hey, Rome wasn't build in a day! Haha) But we'll just take it as it comes :P

I'll create the topic later tonight (UK time, roughly 7-9 hours from now). Will be fun :D
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Grey
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If continuing the discussion is allowed, the elimination of classes wouldn't be that good of a thing. Then the government would be the only provider of jobs, making anyone who worked for the government the "upper" class, making the government a kind of oligarchy. That's why I vote for a socialist-democracy rather then a democratic socialism. The capitalist means of production not only helps a country actually gain money, but it allows the privet sector and the government to be a kind of checks and balance system for each other. The government makes sure that the upper-class doesn't just plain steal from the lower classes, and that everyone stays above the poverty line. The Privet sector stops the government from having total control of everything.
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Dende
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Quote:
 
I'll create the topic later tonight (UK time, roughly 7-9 hours from now). Will be fun


Reminds me of the Pitboss mode for Civilization 4. How glorious. ^^
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Dantos4
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No I'm banning all discussion under my totalitarian dictatorship of this topic!! (joking)

That is true, I suppose. Forgive my ignorance, but what is the difference between a socialist democracy and democratic socialism? :P I understand the basic principles behind both, but democratic socialism seems to be a movement opposing revolutionary change to socialism, instead going for a democratic change to socialism. My brain hurts when I try to work out the difference on wikipedia. Hangover = less brain power :(

Would electing a governing party into power (in a system where there are no classes, so anybody could be a politician theoretically) through democracy not solve that "elite" upper class government problem? Or am I missing something?... I have a feeling I'm missing something...

Also, on a random note: What is everyone's opinion on economic democracy?
Edited by Dantos4, Mar 30 2012, 09:33 AM.
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