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| I don't like Skyrim; Now I've done it... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 7 2012, 11:10 PM (3,103 Views) | |
| Piph0 | Dec 7 2012, 11:10 PM Post #1 |
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Milkman
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...Well here I am. From listening to Squee's Thoughts Behind the Wheel: How to Debate video, I thought A debate forum. How marvelous! and came to to check out what being debated. Sadly, after a brief skim, I didn't find anything that interested me. Before we start I would like to get a few thing out of the way. 1. SPOLIERS: about any and all things Skyrim. 2. I am debating Skyrim, not Skyrim with Mods. A few reasons for this: - We can talk about pros and cons without the line "There's a mod to (make that better) / (fix that)." - Mods could be anything. Facts may not be the same when comparing a modded Skyrim to the original game or even another modded Skyrim. 3. I am debating Skyrim, not the Elder Scrolls Series. This is a bit odd but I have a strange feeling that someone will mention Oblivion or Morrowind and the topic will start deviating towards likes and dislikes of the aforementioned games. That's for another topic, not this one. YOU CAN COMPARE but this is not "I like/dislike Oblivion/Morrowind." 4. My goal is to learn and to understand. Now that that's out of the way, let's get this thing started. I don't like Skyrim. Alright, to make this easier on me, cus I'm not a very fast typer nor a very good one, Imma just gonna type down key points that I didn't like in Skyrim. - Enemies and items leveling with you. - Exploring sometimes make quests un-completable. - Unique items' usefulness - Glitches (The ones that are constant) - Interaction with stories and NPC's Most of these branch-out towards more precise points and a bit into each other but typing all that down in one go is a bit much for me.
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| Drakxii | Dec 8 2012, 12:15 AM Post #2 |
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2. Why not? I buy all of bethesda's games with the intent to mod them. - Enemies and items leveling with you. They mostly level up with you. All of the main story does I believe but many of the quests and random dungeons doesn't there. There is a cave you can walk into at any point that had atleast 3 trolls, there is a quest in Riveten(sp?) that will kill you if your low level, and there is cave you can walk into that is full of goblins and acid spiting mobs at level 1. - Exploring sometimes make quests un-completable. And? - Unique items' usefulness There are number a of good unique items, but crafting is a large part of ES, if you could just loot the best stuff why have crafting? - Glitches (The ones that are constant) Yeah... It a Bethesda's gamebyro game they have had glithces since Morrowind. You should expect Glitches. - Interaction with stories and NPC's I will agree that the game is very much lacking in this. The only plus I see when it comes to this is that it's far far better then I was expecting. Edited by Drakxii, Dec 8 2012, 12:16 AM.
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| infernocanuck | Dec 8 2012, 12:18 AM Post #3 |
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Okay, well, I'll bite. I'll actually be approaching your criticisms in light of another game that I know you do like: Fallout 3. That's not to say Skyrim can't stand on it's own, it's just, much of what you don't like about Skyrim can actually be found in Fallout 3. I argue that if you can acknowledge that there are problems with Fallout 3, yet still enjoy the game, the same can be done with Skyrim. Also, I argue that two games can be fairly compared. They were made, from start to finish, by the same developers. They have very similar mechanics, and are both RPGs that are in the first-person perspective. 1) Enemies and items leveling with you. I have to admit, this is what I disliked the most about all Bethesda games. Fallout 3 does have this... but in a much more subdued way. You don't see tougher enemies until you get a higher level, and the really awesome weapons don't show up until later in the game, as loot from these tougher enemies, or just simply in areas where you have to be high level to even reach. And the leveled item lists in shops, found in Skyrim, are identical in Fallout 3. Go to Moira's shop when your level 2, and then go again when your level 12. You're going to find much different gear, dependent on your level. However, this mechanic is more then understandable. A part of a game is to create a challenge. If you're just 1-shotting bandits left and right, why are you playing the game? It's too easy, it has no challenge, and foes become a nuisance. Not a threat. Leveling up enemies, and gear to go along with it, gives the players constant challenge from level 1 to level 100. What's so wrong with a constant challenge? What is it about having enemies and items level up with you that is so horrible? 2) Exploring sometimes make quests un-completable. As with any game that features a large, complex, explorable world, there are risks involved. Sometimes you reach an area before you are "supposed" to, and you bugger up something. That really is on the onus of the developers, and although I'm sure some things are hard to predict what a player would do, the conflict between exploration on questing should be minimal. Can't really defend this one, but you'll have to let me know the frequency. If it is only a few quests, I'd just have to say it goes with the territory. 3) Unique items' usefulness. You'll have to be much more specific with this one. I mean, what do you mean by "usefuleness?" You mean, for your particular character? What about all the other people who have different characters, different play styles, and come across the equipment at a different time? They might have a use for them. And besides, you can sell most of the items in the game, so... it still has a use. As gold, so you can buy something that suits your character better. 4) Glitches (The ones that are constant). Well, this is a symptom of releasing games before they are thoroughly tested. And, I gotta say.... 5 years later, Fallout 3 still has a -ton- of gliches. Hell, in my LP, two times has the dead Deputy Weld fly across the air like a bird. Glitches are going to happen, and frankly, I believe the frequency between patched Fallout 3 and patched Skyrim are pretty much the same. 5)Interaction with stories and NPC's. You have to be much more specific. What stories? What NPCs? What about the interaction don't you like? How is this different from games that you do enjoy? Frankly, if you don't like the game, you don't like the game. You might not like the theme, you might not like the atmosphere, you might not like dragons. You might hate the combat, or you might hate the accents everyone has. But, honestly, right now, the criticisms you're giving kinda confuse me, since most of them could be leveled at Fallout 3, and you love that game. Edited by infernocanuck, Dec 8 2012, 12:29 AM.
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| halospaz117 | Dec 8 2012, 12:33 AM Post #4 |
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Only twice? |
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| infernocanuck | Dec 8 2012, 12:34 AM Post #5 |
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So far. Give it time. I'm sure "Super Robot" will show up again. |
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| Piph0 | Dec 8 2012, 12:51 AM Post #6 |
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Milkman
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"Why not?" - We can talk about pros and cons without the line "There's a mod to (make that better) / (fix that)." - Mods could be anything. Facts may not be the same when comparing a modded Skyrim to the original game or even another modded Skyrim. - Enemies and items leveling with you. Almost any gear found laying around or in chests are randomly leveled to you. Yes, not all enemies level to you, most do. - Exploring sometimes make quests un-completable. So... you're ok with that? - Unique items' usefulness Actually, my point is a lot of Unique items are worse then Some items found and way worse when you can craft and enchant. - Glitches (The ones that are constant) In almost all game there are glitches, I'm referring to the constant ones like not being about to hand in a quest because the NPC isn't standing in a specific spot. - Interaction with stories and NPC's I have nothing to add. I would like to know what you liked about the game though. |
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| Warden of Wisdom | Dec 8 2012, 12:55 AM Post #7 |
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The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. -Carl Sagan
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I think the whole unique items kind of makes sense, in certain cases, if you think about it. Why would a thousands of years old sword made of old, rusted, worn metal with obsolete forging methods be more effective than a brand new, master smithed, well tempered and high quality metal one? You may say a magical effect on the former would be more powerful, but how are we supposed to know what the mage that enchanted the item's knowledge of and skill in the arcane be? |
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| Piph0 | Dec 8 2012, 02:24 AM Post #8 |
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Milkman
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“Also, I argue that two games can be fairly compared. They were made, from start to finish, by the same developers. They have very similar mechanics, and are both RPGs that are in the first-person perspective.” By that logic, I should like Skyrim and Oblivion the same amount, and I know I clearly dislike Oblivion a lot more. “I have to admit, this is what I disliked the most about all Bethesda games. Fallout 3 does have this... but in a much more subdued way. You don't see tougher enemies until you get a higher level, and the really awesome weapons don't show up until later in the game, as loot from these tougher enemies, or just simply in areas where you have to be high level to even reach. And the leveled item lists in shops, found in Skyrim, are identical in Fallout 3. Go to Moira's shop when your level 2, and then go again when your level 12. You're going to find much different gear, dependent on your level.” I will concede that Fallout 3 and Skyrim do both have leveling items and enemies. But I will say that Fallout 3 is a lot more lenient with its enemy leveling and item leveling is almost nonexistent in Fallout 3… but still exists, sort of. But… “However, this mechanic is more then understandable. A part of a game is to create a challenge. If you're just 1-shotting bandits left and right, why are you playing the game? It's too easy, it has no challenge, and foes become a nuisance. Not a threat. Leveling up enemies, and gear to go along with it, gives the players constant challenge from level 1 to level 100. What's so wrong with a constant challenge? What is it about having enemies and items level up with you that is so horrible?” If all battles are the same, then there is no difficulty. Every battle feels the same. There is no hard, there is no easy, because there’s nothing to compare it to. If the challenge remains totally constant throughout the game, the “challenge” degrades as the player gains personal experience with the mechanics, learns patterns, develops techniques, etc. It gets stale, and the player never feels like they’re getting stronger and growing as their character. If you supersede your level with equipment or something that gives you an edge, you end up having an edge over everything, which is especially apparent when you make your own top-tier gear, which is a whole other issue in itself. “As with any game that features a large, complex, explorable world, there are risks involved. Sometimes you reach an area before you are "supposed" to, and you bugger up something. That really is on the onus of the developers, and although I'm sure some things are hard to predict what a player would do, the conflict between exploration on questing should be minimal. Can't really defend this one, but you'll have to let me know the frequency. If it is only a few quests, I'd just have to say it goes with the territory.” The frequency is, in my experience, two “important quests” and at least three “sub-quests.” But the real problem with this is that it stifles exploration. It feels like the more I explore, the more I get penalized. Exploring in Fallout 3 actually has a chance to advance your quest progress. You can go into Megaton, find Burke, blow up Megaton, and the game will still allow you to continue Moira’s book, because you can find her elsewhere. That’s how much they thought about quests. If you go to Megaton, run up to Moira and blow her brains out, the game will let you know that you have killed an important NPC and failed a quest (that you might not have even gotten yet!) as a result. Skyrim doesn’t provide for that. “I'd just have to say it goes with the territory”—I don’t like this statement because it’s an excuse that hand-waves off an actual problem . “Unique items' usefulness. You'll have to be much more specific with this one. I mean, what do you mean by "usefuleness?" You mean, for your particular character? What about all the other people who have different characters, different play styles, and come across the equipment at a different time? They might have a use for them. And besides, you can sell most of the items in the game, so... it still has a use. As gold, so you can buy something that suits your character better.” “Usefulness” is useful to use, not to sell, not to look pretty. There’s a huge laundry list of why a whole bunch of the unique items wouldn’t fit with any character. A straight to the point example that blankets a majority of unique items in the game is that there are better ones that you can make, which aren’t unique. In Fallout 3, just about every single unique item is either better than the original item, or advances your character in one way or another. The Terrible Shotgun, for example, is better in most ways than its regular counterpart, the combat shotgun. You are not capable of finding or making a combat shotgun that is better than the Terrible Shotgun. “Glitches (The ones that are constant). Well, this is a symptom of releasing games before they are thoroughly tested. And, I gotta say.... 5 years later, Fallout 3 still has a -ton- of gliches. Hell, in my LP, two times has the dead Deputy Weld fly across the air like a bird. Glitches are going to happen, and frankly, I believe the frequency between patched Fallout 3 and patched Skyrim are pretty much the same.” Almost every single game has a glitch. This game has very consistent—throughout every single copy—glitches, with very important things, like followers. Like specific followers, such as Illia. If you would dismiss her, she would then not be able to be regained as a follower, and has an AI like a random townsperson. There’s also the aforementioned problem with accidentally exploring too much, then not being able to complete a quest because of it. An example is when you go and kill a certain NPC, or pick up an item too early, and then later when you get the quest, you have to go and kill a person who’s already dead, which the game glitches and refuses to acknowledge. From Catcard’s experience, a quest called Blood on the Ice consistently glitched for her (and other players, when she looked for help). At one part of that quest, you’re supposed to wait until a certain part of the night to catch the killer walking the streets. She entered that phase of the quest at that time, though, so when she went to go see the killer, he was already running about the town (as he is scripted to do once you see him) and ran to his house to cower in the corner, where he couldn’t be killed, and the quest would be permanently broken. The glitch with Deputy Weld is a ragdoll glitch. That’s a really simple glitch, and only affects immersion, not the actual game itself. I was more talking about glitches that consistently break quests, break areas, break progress. A glitch that is almost guaranteed to happen if you do a certain thing (dismiss Illia, accept a quest after you’ve done what the quest requires, etc). “Interaction with stories and NPC's. You have to be much more specific. What stories? What NPCs? What about the interaction don't you like? How is this different from games that you do enjoy?” I don’t like having no speech choices that give you the option to say “no”. In addition to that, almost every quest has a very linear path. There are a few quests that do branch out, which you could probably name from the top of your head. I walk into a cave, and there’s a ghost. He says, “I’m a dead godsman, I’ve been trying to keep this demon in the other room under wraps, you HAVE to help me!” and your only option is to say yes. You can’t say no, you can’t question the situation, you can’t raise suspicions to this random ghost-man and you can barely get any more information. Exiting out of the conversation doesn’t count because it simply doesn’t make sense in a regular human interaction. Why the hell isn’t there a “no” option? The writers here would be the absolute worst for teaching children how to resist peer pressure. “How is this different from games that you do enjoy?” In Fallout 3, you can say anything ranging along, “yes”, “no”, “maybe you could do something else”, “you’re an awful person, fuck off”, “I haven’t decided”, “I’ll help you for a price”, “I will kill you”, “Let’s have sex (seduction)”, and so much more. In Skyrim, there is only yes. I am a lot more curious about why people like this game than defending myself about why I don’t like it, so … whachu like about it? (I'm sorry... for everything) |
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| Drakxii | Dec 8 2012, 02:45 AM Post #9 |
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It's just that limiting a debate of Skyrim to a mod-less version is like talking about a CoD game and not talking about the MP. Mods are a reason some of us play. For un-completable quests. Yes I am okay with that so long as it's a bug thing. If you a raid a dungeon, sell everything you find, and then you find a poor guy that lost his amulet to the bandits you just killed, I have no problem with the quest no longer completeable as you sold the amulet. I like it went a game doesn't hold my hand. Now it's like a bug where what you need to kill just doesn't spawn that is different. Unique shouldn't mean best ever imo, but with that said there are a number of dragon priest mask and Deardic items that just don't have any equals. Reasons I like it? I like Skyrim for the same reason I liked Morrowind, FO3(despite it's "plot"), FO:NV and the reason I played Oblivion. The freedom to do what ever the heck I wanted in what ever way I wanted. If the main plot wants me to go east, the game has no problem with me going west, north, south, or what ever. Heck I have yet to even come close to finish the civil war plotline even though I have 222 hours in to the game. |
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| sindre1818 | Dec 8 2012, 08:03 AM Post #10 |
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I agree with all of these, except the last one, but I still love the game because of what it does right. I love just walking around exploring the huge open world. |
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