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I don't like Skyrim; Now I've done it...
Topic Started: Dec 7 2012, 11:10 PM (3,111 Views)
sindre1818
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Dralxii
Dec 8 2012, 12:15 AM
- Glitches (The ones that are constant)
Yeah... It a Bethesda's gamebyro game they have had glithces since Morrowind. You should expect Glitches.
This is nowhere near an excuse. You should never accept that something is shit, just because it's always been that way. Always expect better, and complain when it's not. That's the only way things change.
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Huzzahfortimelines
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I pretty much agree with everything you just said... yet I still really like it.
Not because I mod it (though that makes it a lot easier), but because the only thing I want in an Elder Scrolls game is atmosphere. There's a certain atmosphere in the universe that I haven't seen in any other game. The amount of extensive writing, and lorebuilding is astounding, and once you really immerse yourself in it, then it can really grab you in, no matter the bugs, broken quests, and sometimes even bad writing. I think it all comes down to expectations. It sounds to me like you are expecting an open world game to be more like a linear-roleplaying game (Like DA:O). And granted, that all comes down to taste, but when you're expecting it like that, you're going to be dissapointed with it. Hell, even Fallout 3 had some major bugs, yet you still like it. (Yeah, maybe the writing in Fallout 3 is better, but you do have to realize that every new Bethesda engine has started with an Elder Scrolls game, meaning that they had to work on an engine, and make a game at the same time, which is very hard to do. Therefore, quality will drop. However, with Fallout games, they will have experience with the engine, and the quality will rise.)
And as Sindre said, always expect better, I have to agree with that too, but I also have to say: "Don't expect the impossible". Even with hundreds of employees, Behesda can't make such a large world, without any bugs in them, they understood that, and decided to focus more on their strong points, rather than trying to desperatly build a game without bugs, when eventually, there's just a massive white space, with chests surrounding it.
Edited by Huzzahfortimelines, Dec 8 2012, 08:27 AM.
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Drakxii
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sindre1818
Dec 8 2012, 08:08 AM
Dralxii
Dec 8 2012, 12:15 AM
- Glitches (The ones that are constant)
Yeah... It a Bethesda's gamebyro game they have had glithces since Morrowind. You should expect Glitches.
This is nowhere near an excuse. You should never accept that something is shit, just because it's always been that way. Always expect better, and complain when it's not. That's the only way things change.
You say that but from my experience I find games that a glitch-less boring. My favorite game makers Piranha Bytes, Bethesda, Trokia, and Obsidian rarely released games bug free, but they always release ambitious games. Would it be nice for them to aim high and be bugless? Of course but there is only so much time and money. But when it comes down to it I would rather have another feature or quest then have a bug that had minor effects removed.
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Piph0
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Milkman
Dralxii
Dec 8 2012, 02:45 AM
Piph0
Dec 8 2012, 12:51 AM
"Why not?"

- We can talk about pros and cons without the line "There's a mod to (make that better) / (fix that)."
- Mods could be anything. Facts may not be the same when comparing a modded Skyrim to the original game or even another modded Skyrim.

- Enemies and items leveling with you.
Almost any gear found laying around or in chests are randomly leveled to you.
Yes, not all enemies level to you, most do.

- Exploring sometimes make quests un-completable.
So... you're ok with that?

- Unique items' usefulness
Actually, my point is a lot of Unique items are worse then Some items found and way worse when you can craft and enchant.

- Glitches (The ones that are constant)
In almost all game there are glitches, I'm referring to the constant ones like not being about to hand in a quest because the NPC isn't standing in a specific spot.

- Interaction with stories and NPC's
I have nothing to add.

I would like to know what you liked about the game though.
It's just that limiting a debate of Skyrim to a mod-less version is like talking about a CoD game and not talking about the MP. Mods are a reason some of us play.

For un-completable quests. Yes I am okay with that so long as it's a bug thing. If you a raid a dungeon, sell everything you find, and then you find a poor guy that lost his amulet to the bandits you just killed, I have no problem with the quest no longer completeable as you sold the amulet. I like it went a game doesn't hold my hand. Now it's like a bug where what you need to kill just doesn't spawn that is different.

Unique shouldn't mean best ever imo, but with that said there are a number of dragon priest mask and Deardic items that just don't have any equals.

Reasons I like it?

I like Skyrim for the same reason I liked Morrowind, FO3(despite it's "plot"), FO:NV and the reason I played Oblivion. The freedom to do what ever the heck I wanted in what ever way I wanted. If the main plot wants me to go east, the game has no problem with me going west, north, south, or what ever. Heck I have yet to even come close to finish the civil war plotline even though I have 222 hours in to the game.
"If you a raid a dungeon, sell everything you find, and then you find a poor guy that lost his amulet to the bandits you just killed, I have no problem with the quest no longer completeable as you sold the amulet."

I agree.

"Now it's like a bug where what you need to kill just doesn't spawn that is different."

Yes, I do mean the glitched ones.
Example: I found a oddly named book, after trying and failing to put the book away I realize its a quest item. Later on, I find a man who is looking for this book. Here's the kicker, I can't give him the book because, the game didn't think I would find it without the quest and didn't have an 'if then' flag for finding the book early.

"Unique shouldn't mean best ever imo..."

If unique items aren't as good, why get them? What the point in getting a god's axe if you're just gonna putting it aside for one you found or made? ...

"...but with that said there are a number of dragon priest mask and Deardic items that just don't have any equals."

Ok, I'll have to get stats for this one.

Volendrung, a warhammer received from Daedric Prince Malacath, has the same base damage as the Ebony Warhammer and doesn't benefit from any smithing perks when being upgraded. Meaning the Ebony Warhammer is equal in power to a Unique Daedric weapon and can be easily surpassed via smithing. Also, there is the Daedric Warhammer, which is not a Unique item and has better base stats than Volendrung. And if you want to talk about Enchanting, you can also out enchant the Volendrung via giving any enchantment (for weapons) to either Ebony or Daedric Warhammer AND could give a 2nd enchantment. Most Unique Item follow a very similar path to Volendrung.

"I like Skyrim for the same reason I liked Morrowind, FO3(despite it's "plot"), FO:NV and the reason I played Oblivion. The freedom to do what ever the heck I wanted in what ever way I wanted. If the main plot wants me to go east, the game has no problem with me going west, north, south, or what ever. Heck I have yet to even come close to finish the civil war plotline even though I have 222 hours in to the game."

You should try out Minecraft.
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Piph0
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Milkman
Dralxii
Dec 8 2012, 02:45 AM
Unique shouldn't mean best ever imo, but with that said there are a number of dragon priest mask and Deardic items that just don't have any equals.
I forgot about the masks. :-/

Besides all the Enchanting and stats that can be easily trumped, the masks are not part of a set of armor like Glass or Ebony, I bring this up because if you're going into any armor perk tree, there's an additional 25% armor bonus if wearing a matching set. This makes all (I think all) Unique armor never as good as a full set.
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ViperKang
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So there's already ALOT to debate about what is bad about Skyrim but I thought I'd debate those things by sayign why I LOVE this game.

-Truly open world
Skyrim gives you EXACTLY what they tell you they'll give you. You want open world? They shall GIVE you open world. I have a level 45 necro-mage and I have only just done the main quest where you see the main dragon summoning other dragons. You look at my map and it is pretty much as explored as can be. If you wanna talk about Fallout 3 in this regard then how about the fact that you pretty much HAVE to complete Moira's quest before you have the ability to safely (I say that lightly) explore the wastes at large. In Skyrim you get enough armor and strong enough weapons that pretty much any non story dungeon can be pillaged (because of the awesome with-player levelling system.) Fallout has enemies that can be taken on at this level and enemies that will rape you in a corner and then tell you to call them. Example? Deathclaw at the Super Duper Mart when I was level 2 (He never writes me anymore T.T) Also Fallout 3 have places that are blocked off. And sure the excuse is rubble from the great war but you should be able to climb it. But no you HAVE to use the Metro system. There are no "convenient" road blocks in Skyrim. You want to get to point A? Go my child. Enjoy.

-Enemies
Sure Skyrim's enemies aren't the most diverse out there. But even at MY level I am damn cautious when I fight them. And that's because you will NEVER learn the patterns of enemies. Melee enemies normally charge yes but sometimes they'll not just charge but bullrush you. All at once. Screaming obsenities. Very frightening. Also magic users are a super wild card. Are they squishy or do they have some master destruction spell you didn't know about until it slams you in the face? In Fallout you know that Radscorpions are slow so you just have to shoot and run. Or hell jump on a rock. They are one of the few bugs who can't climb surfaces. Go figure. Deathclaws can be lured into mines or just take out a leg and they become adorably easy (resist the temptation to pet a pimping Deathclaw.) And Shooting NPC's can be out ranged, outgunned or VATs spammed into oblivion. SKyrim gives you more of a constant challenge. By the time I was like level 15 in Fallout I was actively hunting things that had frightened me in previous levels. Not so in Skyrim.

-Quests
Admittedly those quests that break from exploration or WAY more common than in any other game I've played but the ones that survive are plentiful and well done and many have more than one resolution to them. Sure the Dragonborn is the biggest yes man in gaming history but quests are so good you want to be a yes man just to see how they play out. Several quests that I started where I was so sure of how I would complete it went totally 180 on me and I found myself actually having to decide whether to stay the course or choose a different resolution to the problem. And I love that. Even if I bend over for every NPC and their problems.

-Leveling
Soooooooooo good. I like the whole "You level what you use" idea. And WHEN you level it's so unintrusive. You see your level bar ding at the top, here some Nordic chants and then you're done. All the while you will still be fighting it out with whoever. Unlike Fallout where you're fighting in this crazy, intense firefight and then BOOM level screen! Everything stops as the game pokes in the face while screaming "LEVEL UP DUMBFACE YOU NEED IT YOU WANT IT DOITDOITDOTIDOTIDOSDKNF." Very off putting at first.

Basically I just adore this game. I love Fallout to don't get me wrong. But god Skyrim is so good. Oh and one more point. Followers. There are so many of them. And unlike Fallout they don't need some kind of moral high or low ground to join you. Either they join you or they require some coin or a fight but as far as quantity and quality the Skyrim followers are amazing. Maybe not as good of fighters as say Fallout's but then again Fallout has guns. So I'll give Skyrim a break.

Edited by ViperKang, Dec 8 2012, 12:33 PM.
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Squee913
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I now we have been around the roseburry bush before, but what the heck!

You say the deep item crafting is a problem, but I see it as a plus. It gives you more options as a player. If you don't like exploring or can't find a unique item that fits your tastes, you can craft one that does. This is not a bad thing. It is not as if it is easy to craft such powerful items. You have to work just as hard to do it as you do to find the unique items in a lot of cases. No one is forcing you to use item crafting. If you want the unique items to matter, then just don't learn how to craft. Problem solved. ;)


I cover more later when I have more time.
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DJNUMA
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Minor League Commissioner
You know guys, just to be completely honest, didnt piph say in his first post not to compare games? *Glares at people who were comparing.*
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Piph0
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Milkman
To ViperKang:

A few things I should note before I start: I would like to inform everyone that this is a discussion about the pros and cons of Skyrim, not a discussion of comparing Fallout 3 and Skyrim. I will still respond to any Fallout 3 concerns or comparisons, but I must urge you to remember that this is NOT about Fallout 3.

I disagree with a lot of what you said. I would like to urge you to remember that I am not attacking you.

“Skyrim gives you EXACTLY what they tell you they'll give you.”

They told me that there would be no enemies leveling to you. Sorry, I just… --there’s a lot of emotions…

“I have a level 45 necro-mage and I have only just done the main quest where you see the main dragon summoning other dragons. You look at my map and it is pretty much as explored as can be.”

I’ve done very similar things. I’ve gone anywhere I want, I’ve done anything I want, and I’ve explored a majority of the different areas. While exploring more and more of the map, I found a lot of the areas fairly same-y. In conjunction with things leveling to you and the lack of any unique indications, I felt like the world was fairly empty.

“If you wanna talk about Fallout 3 in this regard then how about the fact that you pretty much HAVE to complete Moira's quest before you have the ability to safely (I say that lightly) explore the wastes at large.”

The facts of Moira’s mission: After completing 9 of her quests, that make the player explore different corners of the map, which forces you out and towards dangerous areas, the best result in completing Moira’s quest is 6% poison and radiation resistance, and +3% to critical chance. This helps in a VERY small and slight way. There is no reason why you need to do Moira’s quest to play Fallout 3 and explore the wasteland… period.

Catcard has never completed Moira’s quests (she’s only ever done the first 3 or 4 in each playthrough). She still has over 400 hours put into the game overall and has explored every corner of the overworld map.

“In Skyrim you get enough armor and strong enough weapons that pretty much any non story dungeon can be pillaged (because of the awesome with-player levelling system.)”

Why is it awesome that you know you can go anywhere in the map and be completely fine at any level? I would like a difficulty boundary. Something that says, “here is hard enemies, but there’s also great loot in here.” Skyrim’s leveled enemies and leveled items does not feel like I’m getting rewarded for my efforts. Going into a super hard area and being able to triumph over hard enemies in that area, and getting loot that’s great compared to your current level, is a good thing, but that can’t happen because in Skyrim there are no “hard” areas. There are also no “easy” areas. It’s all the same, and the rewards are all the same.

“Fallout has enemies that can be taken on at this level and enemies that will rape you in a corner and then tell you to call them. Example? Deathclaw at the Super Duper Mart when I was level 2 (He never writes me anymore T.T)”

That random encounter that you found at Super Duper Mart was made so that if you did find the Deathclaw at level two, you could beat it. The Deathclaw spawns wounded and crippled. You can easily outrun it and shoot it to death with your beginning gun. Heck, there’s even strategies out there to find that particular Deathclaw at the beginning of the game on Very Hard for an unarmed playthrough… AKA beating a Deathclaw at level two in unarmed combat.

“Also Fallout 3 have places that are blocked off. And sure the excuse is rubble from the great war but you should be able to climb it. But no you HAVE to use the Metro system. There are no "convenient" road blocks in Skyrim. You want to get to point A? Go my child. Enjoy.”

That section in Fallout 3 is generally frustrating to move through, but that does not make Skyrim better. Just because Fallout 3 has a flaw and Skyrim does not have that flaw, doesn’t make Skyrim better on its own.

“Sure Skyrim's enemies aren't the most diverse out there. But even at MY level I am damn cautious when I fight them.”

I never understood this argument. Why would you want a game where it has a level progression system that has no progression? When you’re going up, but so is everything else, making an extremely same-y experience throughout the entire game?

“And that's because you will NEVER learn the patterns of enemies.”

I can find the patterns of enemies. When I was low level, I fought trolls with a crappy two-handed sword that I had picked up off the ground somewhere, without having any points in two-handed, and without getting hit BECAUSE I was able to identify their movement and attack patterns, and the distance away I needed to be in order to avoid getting hit.

“Also magic users are a super wild card. Are they squishy or do they have some master destruction spell you didn't know about until it slams you in the face?”

I have nothing against this, I have nothing to add.

“In Fallout you know that Radscorpions are slow so you just have to shoot and run. Or hell jump on a rock.”

As far as I remember, Rascorpions are actually FASTER than you are… at least, the giant ones are. The smaller ones may be slower. Are you thinking of Giant Ants? Those are slower.

“Deathclaws can be lured into mines or just take out a leg and they become adorably easy”

I think you may be kind of defeating your own argument here. You’ve just shown that you can use tactics here, and you almost need to in order to fight this thing. If you’d like to argue AI, I can argue AI. I have defeated a giant in Skyim at near level 1 via a stream and archery.

“And Shooting NPC's can be out ranged”

As long as they know you’re there, they will still shoot you, no matter the distance.

“outgunned”

If you really see that as a negative, remember that in Skyrim, you can have a bigger and better sword than your opponent.

“or VATs spammed into oblivion.”

Before I can even properly counter this point, what is bad about VATs?

“By the time I was like level 15 in Fallout I was actively hunting things that had frightened me in previous levels. Not so in Skyrim.”

Exactly! You are now stronger than you once were! So when you go back and fight something you struggled with at a lower level, you should have an easier time with it. It’s called battle progression. In Skyrim, bandits should not pose a threat to you after a while. If you’re wandering around in top-tier armor and think that being threatened by a group of misfit bandits is a good thing, then you should also be wondering why they haven’t gone and pillaged a city yet instead of attacking random travelers, seeing how they can pose a threat to someone who’s practically a demigod.

“But the ones that survive are plentiful and well done and many have more than one resolution to them.”

I would say more than 50% of quests in this game have only one resolution. For the quests that actually do have a branching resolution, that choice is incredibly narrow. Any possible conclusion can only branch off of the choice of “yes”. There is no “let’s do something else” or “my alignment has changed”… any other time it’s just a variation of doing the same quest, such as the Eldergleam quest, where you MUST take a sample from the Eldergleam, but can do it one of two ways.

“Sure the Dragonborn is the biggest yes man in gaming history but quests are so good you want to be a yes man just to see how they play out.”

I wouldn’t want to be the yes man to see how it plays out. I would personally not want to be railroaded into one situation, no matter how much the game wants me to see it. I would say, as you said before, you have the freedom to GO anywhere, but not the freedom to choose. A bit over exaggerated, but you get my point. It was a rare occurrence that I actually enjoyed a questline. A few specific examples of what I DID enjoy: The Dark Brotherhood, the Thieves’ Guild, and Azura’s Star.

“Several quests that I started where I was so sure of how I would complete it went totally 180 on me and I found myself actually having to decide whether to stay the course or choose a different resolution to the problem.”

I don’t know about several. The two that I can think of where you can go partway through the quest and then change your mind at some point, and aren’t locked in at the very beginning, are Hircine’s quest and A Waking Nightmare. I don’t know the game well enough to name any more off the top of my head.

“I like the whole "You level what you use" idea.”

I agree.

“And WHEN you level it's so unintrusive. You see your level bar ding at the top, here some Nordic chants and then you're done. All the while you will still be fighting it out with whoever.”

I don’t know how this is a positive. Am I supposed to like the game because it does not have “intrusive” leveling menus? And on the other hand, does intrusive leveling menus make a game bad?

“Unlike Fallout where you're fighting in this crazy, intense firefight and then BOOM level screen! Everything stops as the game pokes in the face while screaming "LEVEL UP DUMBFACE YOU NEED IT YOU WANT IT DOITDOITDOTIDOTIDOSDKNF." Very off putting at first.”

Where do I start. Okay, this doesn’t happen. The game will not put you in a leveling screen unless you’re in a non-combat situation. Second, I don’t think the game screams in your ear or does anything along the lines of “level up dumbface, you want it, you need it, do it do it, etc” – unless you think trumpets are doing that to you, in which case the Nordic chanting in Skyrim should also annoy you… unless it’s just trumpets…

“Oh and one more point. Followers. There are so many of them. And unlike Fallout they don't need some kind of moral high or low ground to join you.”

But Skyrim doesn’t have a moral system.

“Either they join you or they require some coin or a fight but as far as quantity and quality the Skyrim followers are amazing. Maybe not as good of fighters as say Fallout's but then again Fallout has guns. So I'll give Skyrim a break.”

In Skyrim and Fallout 3, you are allowed to have ONE companion follow you. Yes, you would like a companion that fits your playstyle or want in general, but I don’t think the amount of them really matters if you’re only allowed one follower at a time.

I’d like to reiterate this: let’s try not to have any future posts about comparing Skyrim to Fallout 3 as the topic point. Remember, this isn’t ABOUT Fallout 3. You can compare, yes, but when your argument is about saying that Skyrim is better or worse than Fallout 3, you’ve deviated from the topic, which is actually about the pros and cons of Skyrim.

Sincerely, Piph0 with Catcard as scribe and editor.
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Piph0
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Milkman
To Squee,

“You say the deep item crafting is a problem, but I see it as a plus. It gives you more options as a player. If you don't like exploring or can't find a unique item that fits your tastes, you can craft one that does. This is not a bad thing.”

It wouldn’t be a problem if the unique items fit in with the item enchanting and crafting systems.

“It is not as if it is easy to craft such powerful items. You have to work just as hard to do it as you do to find the unique items in a lot of cases.”

I find this untrue. Unique Daedric Prince weapons are, in most cases, the strength of Ebony weapons of their respective types, and you can find Ebony very commonly (at a certain level). I won’t even get into the unique non-Daedric Prince weapons, which are easily weaker than a lot of things that you can find.

“No one is forcing you to use item crafting.”

Even if I had no points in crafting, I can still find and make better weapons than unique Daedric Prince weapons.

“If you want the unique items to matter, then just don't learn how to craft. Problem solved.”

That is not solving a problem, that is ignoring it.

I’m sorry if I’m coming off as harsh. Words don’t really translate my feelings well. Looking forward to your complete response, Squee.
Edited by Piph0, Dec 8 2012, 05:30 PM.
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