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I don't like Skyrim; Now I've done it...
Topic Started: Dec 7 2012, 11:10 PM (3,110 Views)
infernocanuck
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Well, I should have qualified this ahead of time. My goal, in my last post, and in this post, isn't to "convince" you that you are wrong. You don't like Skyrim. That's fine. Nothing I'm going to say is going to change your mind. However, you did start up this debate either because you want readers to understand the pros and cons of the game, and/or you want to reflect and articulate exactly WHY you don't like the game.

I'm leaning more on the latter. I pretty much want to force you to tell me exactly why you don't like the game, in detail, and I want to challenge you on some of the claims you make. It's nothing personal, it's nothing aggressive or snippy, I just like to be a Socratic gadfly and keep asking you "why? why? why?" all the time.

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By that logic, I should like Skyrim and Oblivion the same amount, and I know I clearly dislike Oblivion a lot more


Either you misunderstood, or, more then likely, I wasn't clear enough when I typed the "Comparing Fallout 3 and Skyrim is fair". I was merely saying that it was reasonable to compare the two, due to the remarkable similarities. If I was comparing Skyrim to.. say.. I dunno.. L4D2, it wouldn't be fair. Apples and Oranges. But frankly, I think Skyrim and Fallout 3 is more comparing red apples and green apples. In addition, just because they are -comparable- doesn't mean that you should automatically like both of them. I never said you should -like- Skyrim because you liked Fallout 3. I'm saying that problems you found in Skyrim could -also- be found in Fallout 3, and you overlooked them and enjoyed that game. It's a small difference, but an important one.

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I will concede that Fallout 3 and Skyrim do both have leveling items and enemies. But I will say that Fallout 3 is a lot more lenient with its enemy leveling and item leveling is almost nonexistent in Fallout 3… but still exists, sort of


I would argue that, as far as leveling items goes, Fallout is more lenient frankly because.. well.. it doesn't have that many items to start with. Let's just use weapons as an example. You have either one weapon (say a laser pistol) and then the "unique" version of that weapon. That's it. With Skyrim, you could have a longsword made of iron, or steel, or freaking moonstone. It could be enchanted with magic. Magic itself adds a whole new element to the game. So many variations. You simply don't have the sheer amount of diversity in Fallout 3 as you do in Skyrim. It's that diversity that makes huge leveled lists, and it's that diversity that makes it a good game, in my honest opinion.

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If all battles are the same, then there is no difficulty. Every battle feels the same. There is no hard, there is no easy, because there’s nothing to compare it to. If the challenge remains totally constant throughout the game, the “challenge” degrades as the player gains personal experience with the mechanics, learns patterns, develops techniques, etc. It gets stale, and the player never feels like they’re getting stronger and growing as their character.


I'd agree with you if that's what happens in Skyrim. In my personal experience, every battle in Skyrim -doesn't- feel the same. Chopping down a bandit is much different then fighting a dragon. Let's say there is a difficulty level in all the beasties in Skyrim. 1 would be, say, a skeever, and 10 would be, say a dragon. You can reach difficulty level 1-10 when you're level 1. But, when you're level 20, that difficulty level now shifts to say, 30-40. So, there is still a range of hard. There is still a range of easy. Leveling enemies with you ensures that the game doesn't get oppressively hard, and it doesn't get disgustingly easy. Ironically, it's the leveling lists that -prevent- combat from going stale, as you so claim.

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The frequency is, in my experience, two “important quests” and at least three “sub-quests.” But the real problem with this is that it stifles exploration. It feels like the more I explore, the more I get penalized.


I would argue that you don't get penalized all that much. You still explored the area, right? You still got everything within it? So, all you can't do is that quest. Is it broken, well, yeah, sure. And it should be patched (if it hasn't already). You know what the alternative is? The alternative is putting up invisible walls in areas, where you can't explore, until you trigger a quest. THAT is penalizing the player, and that is stifling exploration. The very fact that you could do what you did shows that Skyrim doesn't hold your hand, nor does it say, "Don't explore yet, we're not ready!" The very fact that you can go into areas previously reserved for quests shows the openness of the game. I wouldn't call that stifling.

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Exploring in Fallout 3 actually has a chance to advance your quest progress. You can go into Megaton, find Burke, blow up Megaton, and the game will still allow you to continue Moira’s book, because you can find her elsewhere. That’s how much they thought about quests. If you go to Megaton, run up to Moira and blow her brains out, the game will let you know that you have killed an important NPC and failed a quest (that you might not have even gotten yet!) as a result. Skyrim doesn’t provide for that.


This is nitpicky, but I don't care. You realize that there are other quests in Megaton other then Moira's book quest? Helping Leo Stahl no longer get addicted to drugs. Helping Lucy West find her brother. If you blow up Megaton, you lose those quests, you lose that XP. I would rather have a game that says, "Do what you want, but you might mess things up later, that's the consequence" then, "Do exactly what we want you to do, when we want you to do it.".

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“I'd just have to say it goes with the territory”—I don’t like this statement because it’s an excuse that hand-waves off an actual problem .


Not hand-waving. Just understanding the realities of game development.

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“Usefulness” is useful to use, not to sell, not to look pretty. There’s a huge laundry list of why a whole bunch of the unique items wouldn’t fit with any character. A straight to the point example that blankets a majority of unique items in the game is that there are better ones that you can make, which aren’t unique.


Squee beat me to this, so I'll leave the benefits of crafting to his post. But, I will say this: How can you honestly say that -no- player, anywhere, would have use for an item that you find "useless". Maybe they role-play. Maybe, they're a proud Nord, and will only use weapons of iron and steel? Maybe they're a pyro, and they will only use weapons with a fire enchantment? Once again, maybe they will come across the same item you did, but at a different time. Saying "There are a whole bunch of items that won't suit any character" is a bold claim. Such bold claims require a huge amount of evidence.
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The glitch with Deputy Weld is a ragdoll glitch. That’s a really simple glitch, and only affects immersion, not the actual game itself. I was more talking about glitches that consistently break quests, break areas, break progress. A glitch that is almost guaranteed to happen if you do a certain thing (dismiss Illia, accept a quest after you’ve done what the quest requires, etc).


Gonna pull out some evidence for my next claim, here. Fallout 3 is -riddled- with game breaking bugs. And not just "cosmetic, immersion breaking" ones, that you so claim. Here is a list of confirmed bugs in Fallout 3:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_3_bugs

Bugs that -crash the game-. Bugs that remove NPCs (how are you going to turn in quests?) Bugs that have followers -attack and kill you- Note, that's these aren't even quest-related bugs. There were so many quest-related bugs, they sent all of those bug reports to each and every quest section.

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I don’t like having no speech choices that give you the option to say “no”. In addition to that, almost every quest has a very linear path. There are a few quests that do branch out, which you could probably name from the top of your head.


I can't argue with that, not in the slightest. Thank you for being specific. :) <3

Feel free to counter my counter-arguments, but if you chose not to do so, I won't be like, "YAY! I WIN!" Debate isn't about winning. I'll simply assume you want to talk more about why people -LIKE- Skyrim, rather then an endless comparison to Fallout 3 and Skyrim.

I heart ya Piphy.




Edited by infernocanuck, Dec 8 2012, 05:39 PM.
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ViperKang
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Well damn not being able to compare games destroys most of my original post XD Well unfortunately I can already see that pretty much ALL that makes Skyrim great for me is not so great for you. I see it as a difference in how we approach games and their mechanics. So I bow to your opinions sir and I shall agree to disagree about Skyrim. I personally love it and only wish they could make more just like it but with obvious tweaks like fixing quests and more NPC diversity and such.
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infernocanuck
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djnuma
Dec 8 2012, 05:18 PM
You know guys, just to be completely honest, didnt piph say in his first post not to compare games? *Glares at people who were comparing.*
Straight from the OP: "YOU CAN COMPARE but this is not "I like/dislike Oblivion/Morrowind."

*Glares back at you who did not read.*
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Drakxii
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Piph0
Dec 8 2012, 05:30 PM
Even if I had no points in crafting, I can still find and make better weapons than unique Daedric Prince weapons.
If we ignore crafting there is only one Daedric artifact weapon that is easily out classed by dropped loot (Ebony Blade). The rest either have an enchantment that you can't loot, have multiple enchantments or has an enchantment that is more powerful then you can loot.
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ViperKang
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Yeah but you can't just ignore a property of the game. It isn't that YOU don't use it. It's whether its implementation causes unique items to become obsolete.
Edited by ViperKang, Dec 8 2012, 06:50 PM.
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Sparda
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I'll get this out of the way, I kind of like Skyrim but to me it's not all that great. I'm not even going to compare this to other games, just purely based on its own merits.

Skyrim claims that it's good to explore, but it isn't. If you find an item for a quest then you can't drop it nor hand it in. If you do get the quest after that then guess what? You are stuck with the quest in your log and the item you needed right there. On a more annoying scale the Bards College quests have you get 3 unique instruments, and even when you complete the quest they stay in your inventory and you can not drop them. The Litany of Larceny quests for the thieves guild has a bug where if you hand in all but one of the items then the quest stage is set to complete so you can't sell all of the items. I don't know anything about coding, but considering quests for generic items update if you already have them on you, then it shouldn't be so hard to do it for important items. Then there is the fact you can't even DROP those items to make the quest update. I agree you shouldn't be able to sell quest items but not being able to store them or drop them when your journal won't update is awful.

Then there is the weapons and loot everyone mentions. Since the enemies and loot level with you, there are times where you can be in town selling and crafting for long periods of time and leveling off of non combat skills. If you do that and don't get loot scaled up to your level the enemies will have Armor Ratings through the blasted roof. Your Iron and Steel weapons won't do much when you get to level 10 or 15 by just hanging around town talking and crafting. So the game actually punishes you for not leveling up and putting perk points into non combat skills. In a game where freedom is supposed to be so important this is a pretty big problem. As for the weapons and the Ebony Blade. What if we don't use Two Handed Weapons? Then the weapon won't do much. Then there is the fact that in order for it to reach maximum damage you have to kill NPC's friendly to you, which is not a point in its favor. If you have some smithing skill or some enchanting skill you can make weapons SO much better than any dropped weapon in the game it's absurd. If you even want the best weapons in the game you have to learn smithing, or enchanting to enchant a set of clothes that allows you to improve stuff to Legendary. Granted you can get by easily without armor enhancement and weapon enhancement, but the added effects and general damage output of the unique stuff is not that great.

Then there is immersing yourself in the world. The game gives you barely any feedback at all when it comes to your actions in quests. I have a level 81 Mage in charge of everything. People still tell me to check out the College of Winterhold, or tell me that I look strong and should think about joining the companions. They all say the same things as soon as you are even a member of the Thieves Guild, or Dark Brotherhood. Heck even when you become the Leader of the Thieves Guild hardly anyone in the guild makes note of it. Only within the Dark Brotherhood itself do all of the members (all 4 or 5 of them depending on Cicero) call you Listener. It's poor feedback of the highest order. Even after you save the world from Alduin no one seems to know or care. Not even the Greybeards, and then The Blades don't say much except go kill Parthounax. Then there is the constant audio from housecarls when entering your own houses talking about how they expect you to not cause any trouble, or that I shouldn't be in my own house. The game never really makes you feel things are different or better through your actions, and it's deepened by NPC's still mocking you and acting the same way they did at the beginning of the game.

So all in all when you find a weapon, explore, or finish a large quest the whole feeling is that of "Well, that just happened lets wander around Whiterun where no one seems to know me despite the fact I've been Thane there since the beginning of my game".
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Sparda
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ViperKang
Dec 8 2012, 06:49 PM
Yeah but you can't just ignore a property of the game. It isn't that YOU don't use it. It's whether its implementation causes unique items to become obsolete.
Yeah but you can't ignore all of someones arguments in a post because you disagree with one thing. This is a debate forum not a cherry picking forum. I encourage everyone to address the large majority of points in there replies and not just pluck out one detail. Thank you.
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DJNUMA
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Minor League Commissioner
*Continues Glaring at inferno for no apparent raison.*
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ViperKang
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Sparda
Dec 8 2012, 06:59 PM
ViperKang
Dec 8 2012, 06:49 PM
Yeah but you can't just ignore a property of the game. It isn't that YOU don't use it. It's whether its implementation causes unique items to become obsolete.
Yeah but you can't ignore all of someones arguments in a post because you disagree with one thing. This is a debate forum not a cherry picking forum. I encourage everyone to address the large majority of points in there replies and not just pluck out one detail. Thank you.
I wasn't cherry picking. I was supporting Piph. What I got from what Piph was saying was that a game should have unique weapons that are not outclassed by an in game option such as crafting and enchanting. Dralxii tried to argue back by completely taking out a factor of the game which I feel shouldn't be done because the argument is that unique weapons should rise above such mechanics and not have to rely on their not being added. I hardly would call what i said cherry picking. With all due respect I feel what I said was justified and valid but if I took what Piph said wrong then I will of course recant this statement.
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infernocanuck
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You realize, DJNuma, if we keep staring at each other, we run the risk of falling in love...
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