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I don't like Skyrim; Now I've done it...
Topic Started: Dec 7 2012, 11:10 PM (3,108 Views)
Piph0
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Milkman
TheEdnar
Dec 9 2012, 05:29 PM
Not really sure if this is in keeping with the idea of the thread, but just some thoughts on what could improve on the problems Piph0 has with the game. Also, before I get started, I need to say that the progression from Morrowind->Oblivion->Skyrim has for me been Awesome->Kinda Good->Meh. :)

1) Uniques usefullness. I agree with Piph0, in that Uniques should be useful. I don't agree they should be solely statwise greater. Bigger numbers don't mean more fun. How about instead of going up, one went to the side. Uniques that have comparable, maybe even slightly weaker numbers, but do something that enchanting or smithing doesn't allow you as a player to do with the regular items. This is difficult since they made the enchanting and smithing so friggin' OP and capable of giving any item in the game basicly any effect. I don't honestly have any suggestions on how to do this, aside from cosmetic changes or some funny quirks (maybe make your blade talk to you like Lilarcor from BG2). Maybe making a druid staff which makes slain enemies sprout a growth of some harvestable material if you deal the final blow in melee? The munchkin will still want to craft his own gear, because numbers, but this kind of special effect will appeal to the RolePlayer in us. Which brings me to the second thing.

2) Interaction with NPCs. What interaction? I agree with Piph0 completely, though he doesn't go far enough. The assumption the game makes seems to be that if you talk to someone you want the quest. You (almost) never want to know who you're doing the quest for, nor if you want to do it for the other side instead, or if you want to haggle for the reward, or if you want to antagonize said NPC straight away for suggesting to your ultra-lawful Paladin that he might want to burn down an orphanage. This kind of thing is a symptom of huge, openended worlds, but still they could've at the very least added some options and variety to a few of the dialogues pertaining to quests. Partly I feel the problem is also that everything is voice acted. Take a look at an older RPG like Fallout or Planescape. Those had huge dialogue trees built into them for the important NPCs, which actually felt like conversations instead of pressing buttons on a quest giving machine. But making voice acted bits for such huge dialogue trees for umpteen NPCs all throughout the game, kinda doubt many game companies would bother.

There's a lot the game gets right. It's pretty, it's atmospheric through visuals, music and sound effects. The world is huge, and exploration feels interesting (untill you begin to feel that there's nothing left to accomplish by it)
Where it fails utterly, at least for me, is by not making me care. I rarely do anything for anyone because I need to or want to, I do stuff because I happened to stumble upon it and there might be lootz. Very rarely if ever does the game succeed in making me care for a single character or faction in this huge world. And I'm the guy who almost friggin' cried in ME3 when some of my favorite people got killed, or when I realized I had to sacrifice my FemShep for the greater good. I know it's not a fair comparison, since the other is heavily story driven and linearish, and the other free roaming sandbox playground, but still, would it have killed them to add maybe like half-a-dozen persistent, interesting characters with motivations, personalities and agendas with which you interact in ways other than "here's the next kill ten rabbits and bring me back their pelts-quest, chopchop" to which you can answer "sir,yes sir!" or just walk away and ignore the quest in your quest list for all eternity.

Okay, getting a bit ranty. I'll just leave this here, run, and never come back to see how badly my views got crushed. Also, not very good at debating, so sue me.
This is just for clarification.

Quote:
 
I don't agree they should be solely statwise greater. Bigger numbers don't mean more fun. How about instead of going up, one went to the side.


Going to the side is fine.
The reason why I would like a Unique Weapon equal to or better then it's common counter part:

Unique items should be rewards, something that betters you in some way, something that feels rewarding. Unique Weapons in this case don't seen to have a purpose... it's nice for house decoration.
Edited by Piph0, Dec 10 2012, 11:22 AM.
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Squee913
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I think the main difference is a game-play style. I went back over your Skyrim Streams and realized something that never occurred to me before. I don't think Skyrim was made with metagamers in mind. I think it was intended for role players. When you play a game like Skyrim or fallout 3 you do not role play a character (At least I have never seen you do that) You may restrict yourself in some way, but you always view yourself as a gamer controlling a character, and not the character himself. You see it as a game and treat it with a game mentality. You kill mammoths simply because you wanted to. You steal things just because you can etc etc. You do not try to treat Skyrim as a real world, or your character as a real person in that world with in game goals and motivations.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with this, I simply don't think Skyrim was made with that kind of gaming in mind. The developers tried to make a sandbox in which players can live another life in a fantasy world. They wanted to give you as many options in how you do this as possible. By not attempting to do this, by not creating a role and playing it, I feel you loose a vital part of what makes this game special.

Let's take the unique item vs crafting item issue. If I wanted to play a treasure hunter who goes dungeon diving for lost items, I can. I can even find lots of interesting items that would make my efforts feel worth while. If, on the other hand, I wanted to make a character with the goal of being a master blacksmith capable of crafting weapons that even surpass the weapons of legend, I could do that as well. Let's say I have two players, one who feels crafting items makes the unique items he finds pointless, and another who feels nothing he ever crafts will ever be as good as the unique items he can already find and so will never feel like a master crafter. What do we do?

Well, you give as many options as possible and leave it to the players to place rules on themselves for the character they want to play. It makes more sense that way. Logically speaking, why shouldn't you be able to become a better crafter that the people who made the unique weapons? Why can't you make legendary weapons yourself? On the flip side, if you are a treasure hunter, you normally would not have the time to devote to smithing and, as such, would not be able to make legendary weapons. Therefore the unique items you find are valuable. Within their proper roles, the mechanic works and makes sense. It is only when you don't choose a role and simply try to do everything the game lets you do with the same character, that this system does not work.

You said that simply not crafting items is ignoring the problem, not solving it. I say that if ignoring the problem has no negative ramifications on you in the short or long term, than ignoring the problem "is" solving it. Remember, that no game is tailor made for one players tastes. In order for your unique weapons to be the best in the game, you would have to take the ability to make better weapons away from the people who want that. If you want them to be the best weapons in the game, then just don't train in crafting. This way, you will find the unique weapons to be interesting and useful. Doing so has no negative implications to your game play and there for is not a problem. On the hand, if we did it as you suggest, than anyone who wanted to make legendary weapons would just be out of luck. I do not see why you would say a game is worse because of a 100% optional feature.

I know you said you could make or find weapons better without crafting. I am not sure what you mean, but I find it hard to believe you could find or craft weapons that outclass a large number of the more powerful unique items without series effort. Perhaps you might be able to find one or two items that outclass one or two unique items, but that is hardly enough to claim unique items in general useless. More details on what you mean could clear this up for me.

btw, list of Dardric prince items:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Long story short out of that list of 13, 10 would be very useful in the right hands and it would be almost impossible to make a single item with the same power.

As for the fact that exploring closes off some quest options. Can you tell me which ones? I know you mentioned you liked how you could still do Moira's quest even after blowing up megaton. I never really liked this. It makes the act of blowing up a city less impact-full. I feel that certain actions should close some doors, but without know what specifically you are referring to, I can't really comment. I can ask what the solution would be. Lets say you explore and kill someone who a quest later on needed you to talk to. This then closes off that quest. Why shouldn't this happen? Should the game just break immersion and make the person unkillable? To me, this makes it feel more like an actual world.

Now, that said, yes there are bugs that break the game from time to time (though I never really found many of them) And yes the lack of dialog options sucks for everyone (role play or not). These things hurt the game. However, they do not hurt it enough for it to outweigh are the things this game did right for me.


As I have said before, our main difference is our play style. You treat it as a game. I treat it as a virtual world. You clean out a cave because you expect there to be a treat at the end. I clear it out because my character feels it makes the world a safer place. You learn every ability because you can, I limit myself to certain abilities to fit the role of my character. You do things/attack things just to see what happens. I only attack or do things that my character has in game motivation to do. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with how you play. I simply do not thing Skyrim was made with your style of gaming at heart.
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infernocanuck
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To dove-tail a few things onto Squee's post.

Re: Crafting/exploration. Think of it the other way around. What if they nerfed or changed Crafting so that you couldn't make weapons just as good or better then unique relics? Then, people would say, "Well then, what's the point in crafting? I could just find the best weapon in the game." That complaint cuts both ways, and I respect that Bethesda put in -both- options, relics and crafting, and let the player decide if they want to do one, or both, or neither.

Role-playing vs Game-playing: Squee brings up a very good point I would have never thought of. There are so many freaking games, even "role playing games", that break the fourth wall. For those of you unfamiliar with the term, it pretty means the actions or words of an actor (or in this case, the NPCs in the game) no longer speak to the realities of the atmosphere the game, or play, is creating, but instead is merely talking directly to the gamer/audience. Yeah, I know games are games, and they are supposed to be fun. But it's also fun to suspend my disbelief for a while, and have a game treat it's own world seriously.

If Skyrim does anything right, it's throwing you into a strange world, and keeping you there. This really isn't a game for achievement hunters, and 100%ers. It's a game for nerds like me who like to escape, explore and pretend.
Edited by infernocanuck, Dec 10 2012, 04:59 PM.
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TheEdnar
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To Squee: With the kind of RPG gameplay you do, I'm really surprised you don't touch on the issue of dialogue at all. As a pen&paper roleplayer I'd feel horribly limited if my only options are a) to silently listen to a few lines of exposition, then nod and do the quest b) to silently listen to few lines of exposition and just walk away and ignore the quest or c) to silently listen to the few lines of exposition and then murder the horrifying bastard who suggested I do something awful. I guess you could argue that all this debating and deciding what to do happens in your head, but that eliminates any chance on the NPC turning your head around to his/her way of thinking. No matter how Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil you want to think of your character, there should always be the chance of him being persuaded into doing something, and Skyrim just doesn't offer any of that. Human being is a social creature, and the interaction molds us just as much, if not more, than our internal monologue and pondering of the world around us.

I freely admit, it's been a _long_ time since I touched skyrim last time, but I can't remember one NPC which said something that changed my mind, or even left a lasting impression on me with his/her personality, values etc. I remember feeling a lot like I was playing WoW, where, after a few times reading through what was asked of me and thinking it through if I wanted to do it or not, I just stopped, since it began to feel like all I was doing was finding the person with the yellow exclamation mark above him/her, accepting quest, go to location, kill X baddies, return, profit, wash, rinse, repeat.

/rant. I'm off to my hideyhole again.
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Squee913
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TheEdnar
Dec 10 2012, 04:57 PM
To Squee: With the kind of RPG gameplay you do, I'm really surprised you don't touch on the issue of dialogue at all. As a pen&paper roleplayer I'd feel horribly limited if my only options are a) to silently listen to a few lines of exposition, then nod and do the quest b) to silently listen to few lines of exposition and just walk away and ignore the quest or c) to silently listen to the few lines of exposition and then murder the horrifying bastard who suggested I do something awful. I guess you could argue that all this debating and deciding what to do happens in your head, but that eliminates any chance on the NPC turning your head around to his/her way of thinking. No matter how Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil you want to think of your character, there should always be the chance of him being persuaded into doing something, and Skyrim just doesn't offer any of that. Human being is a social creature, and the interaction molds us just as much, if not more, than our internal monologue and pondering of the world around us.

I freely admit, it's been a _long_ time since I touched skyrim last time, but I can't remember one NPC which said something that changed my mind, or even left a lasting impression on me with his/her personality, values etc. I remember feeling a lot like I was playing WoW, where, after a few times reading through what was asked of me and thinking it through if I wanted to do it or not, I just stopped, since it began to feel like all I was doing was finding the person with the yellow exclamation mark above him/her, accepting quest, go to location, kill X baddies, return, profit, wash, rinse, repeat.

/rant. I'm off to my hideyhole again.
If you read my entire post you would have seen that I did touch on that subject. I stated that the lack of dialog options sucked for everyone (roleplayer or not) and that it was a flaw in the game. Simply not a flaw big enough to outweigh all the good points.
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TheEdnar
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Ah, my mistake. Should've read it a bit more carefully.
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infernocanuck
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TheEdnar
Dec 10 2012, 04:57 PM

I freely admit, it's been a _long_ time since I touched skyrim last time, but I can't remember one NPC which said something that changed my mind, or even left a lasting impression on me with his/her personality, values etc.

I can think of a few instances where that happened to me. The big one was when a certain child asked you to kill a certain old lady. At first, they set up that the lady is pretty much the worst person ever. However, other NPCs you talk to, admit that if she wasn't around, things would be a whole lot harder, and the consequences would not be fun. So, I, as a player (and character) decided that no matter how mean this old hag was, she wasn't a monster, and that she actually served a purpose that would no longer exist if she died.

Once again, your own mileage may vary. If you don't like the game, I'm sure as hell not going to convince you. But the game does do some things very very right, despite all complaints people have.
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PvtCryan502
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More than Just a Conjurer of Cheap Tricks
Here's what I got off skyrim now don't murder me for not going into areas mainly because I haven't the ability to do it all yet. Talking without mods or cheats.
Dialouge: Is it me or does it lack uniqueness. "Hello" "Disrespect the law you disrespect me". I think they could've had a bit more variety like how borderlands 2 has their NPC dialouges. Now not a bethesda game but if you play 3hrs. in you can notice how they change even slightly or that you giggle at how rediculous a bandit said. I would've liked that extra effort into that area.
Quests: Collect 10 bear pelts for revenge. I have to go with Ednar but does it strike to me like WOW. I know bears are rare but they still have that grimy old thing off collect blah ba blah of this or go over here to get some of a historical thinga ma jig that was prized to them. Raid camps, clear fort. I haven't got to rebellion, but before someone goes you didn't do nothing then! I know I didn't do all of it. I'm not a completionist the game should impress me on its story, and impact to the player not collect or go every where because then you could go to so-and-so to get a reward that may or not be good or just bragging rights. I don't need those I'm the main guy, I don't care what random farmer number 22 said to me when I passed by his fields. Sure it's nice but it shouldn't be pivotal.
The leveling with you thing: Now I grew up with pokemon which don't care about your opinions which you couldn't do anything unless you grinded or to massive force or had the right tool for the job. In skyrim you could apparently just do everything without a worry because everything is on your level. I don't like the idea because I like the fact of facing a huge boss that you spent your effort to even have a chance to get that big reward. I know in pokemon it was a title which contradicts what I said before but I was 6! And that was 8 years ago I'm almost 15. I want that amazing weapon of plus everything that will wreck most not everything for a challenge because you did something big and hard before you obtained that weapon. I don't want a new sword that's sllightly better. I want a sword that does something much different from my old one trading speed with much higher damage or having magical damage. Skyrim does this but with just tiny better stats each time. I want something with a different flavor not just extra condiments.
Crafting: It does that to a good effect for that's what it is. If you don't have the materials or the skill your SOL otherwise you can do some pretty amazing things like make a weapon that has a say 78 damage, and is great versus the undead. Or make a potion because the one in the store (usually too ) is overpriced because you gathered the materials to do it. I like and support the idea of being self proficient.
Exploration: seems mostly the same but with a minor differennces in the bends and turns, and maybe a different ore in the end of the cave.
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Squee913
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PvtCryan502
Dec 10 2012, 05:43 PM
Here's what I got off skyrim now don't murder me for not going into areas mainly because I haven't the ability to do it all yet. Talking without mods or cheats.
Dialouge: Is it me or does it lack uniqueness. "Hello" "Disrespect the law you disrespect me". I think they could've had a bit more variety like how borderlands 2 has their NPC dialouges. Now not a bethesda game but if you play 3hrs. in you can notice how they change even slightly or that you giggle at how rediculous a bandit said. I would've liked that extra effort into that area.
Quests: Collect 10 bear pelts for revenge. I have to go with Ednar but does it strike to me like WOW. I know bears are rare but they still have that grimy old thing off collect blah ba blah of this or go over here to get some of a historical thinga ma jig that was prized to them. Raid camps, clear fort. I haven't got to rebellion, but before someone goes you didn't do nothing then! I know I didn't do all of it. I'm not a completionist the game should impress me on its story, and impact to the player not collect or go every where because then you could go to so-and-so to get a reward that may or not be good or just bragging rights. I don't need those I'm the main guy, I don't care what random farmer number 22 said to me when I passed by his fields. Sure it's nice but it shouldn't be pivotal.
The leveling with you thing: Now I grew up with pokemon which don't care about your opinions which you couldn't do anything unless you grinded or to massive force or had the right tool for the job. In skyrim you could apparently just do everything without a worry because everything is on your level. I don't like the idea because I like the fact of facing a huge boss that you spent your effort to even have a chance to get that big reward. I know in pokemon it was a title which contradicts what I said before but I was 6! And that was 8 years ago I'm almost 15. I want that amazing weapon of plus everything that will wreck most not everything for a challenge because you did something big and hard before you obtained that weapon. I don't want a new sword that's sllightly better. I want a sword that does something much different from my old one trading speed with much higher damage or having magical damage. Skyrim does this but with just tiny better stats each time. I want something with a different flavor not just extra condiments.
Crafting: It does that to a good effect for that's what it is. If you don't have the materials or the skill your SOL otherwise you can do some pretty amazing things like make a weapon that has a say 78 damage, and is great versus the undead. Or make a potion because the one in the store (usually too ) is overpriced because you gathered the materials to do it. I like and support the idea of being self proficient.
Exploration: seems mostly the same but with a minor differennces in the bends and turns, and maybe a different ore in the end of the cave.
Dialog: Yup... kinda sucky.

Quests: First of all, Skyrim might have it's share of fetch quests, but they are only a small part. Many of it's quests are much more complex and I find them quite interesting. Raid camps, Clear Forts, get this, do that... that sums up quests for 99% of adventure games out there. What exactly are you expecting? When it comes down to it almost every quest in almost every game is some variation of a fetch quests, escort/defend quest, or search and kill quest.

Leveling: "You can do pretty much anything?" I dare you to go up to a mammoth or giant with level one gear and character and kill it without some cheap glitch or exploit. Yes, things level with you, but this is not oblivion. There are defiantly things that will kill you if you are not ready for them.

Quote:
 
I don't want a new sword that's sllightly better. I want a sword that does something much different from my old one trading speed with much higher damage or having magical damage. Skyrim does this but with just tiny better stats each time. I want something with a different flavor not just extra condiments.


Again you are talking about most RPGs. Most RPGs give you slightly better weapons than you had before. They increase stats or ability a little with every upgraded class. Eventually, you can find or make very powerful items. How is Skyrim any different than this?


Exploration: Again... this is most games. Very few and far between are games where every cave feels different. You do realize that this game already took 5 years to make. Would you prefer they take another 5 years to make every cave different? Besides, I thought you said you grew up on pokemon games. You should be used to similar level designs wherever you go. Finally, even if the caves are similar, the outside world is not. Skyrim has vastly different terrain and environments in it that can be a joy to explore.
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infernocanuck
Dec 10 2012, 05:05 PM
TheEdnar
Dec 10 2012, 04:57 PM

I freely admit, it's been a _long_ time since I touched skyrim last time, but I can't remember one NPC which said something that changed my mind, or even left a lasting impression on me with his/her personality, values etc.

I can think of a few instances where that happened to me. The big one was when a certain child asked you to kill a certain old lady. At first, they set up that the lady is pretty much the worst person ever. However, other NPCs you talk to, admit that if she wasn't around, things would be a whole lot harder, and the consequences would not be fun. So, I, as a player (and character) decided that no matter how mean this old hag was, she wasn't a monster, and that she actually served a purpose that would no longer exist if she died.

Once again, your own mileage may vary. If you don't like the game, I'm sure as hell not going to convince you. But the game does do some things very very right, despite all complaints people have.
Regarding the bolded portion:

This is why it's so important to have an option to say "no". Yes, you as the player have decided that you will not kill this lady, but as far as the game and the universe in which your character lives go, you have still agreed to kill this lady, and there is still a kid waiting on you somewhere to kill this lady, and it will be that way forevermore until you kill that lady.

That's terrible. I don't care if the quest was to save a kitten. This isn't about morals. I reserve the right to refuse kitten rescues and old lady slaughters alike!
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