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I don't like Skyrim; Now I've done it...
Topic Started: Dec 7 2012, 11:10 PM (3,107 Views)
Squee913
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catcard
Dec 10 2012, 06:16 PM
infernocanuck
Dec 10 2012, 05:05 PM
TheEdnar
Dec 10 2012, 04:57 PM

I freely admit, it's been a _long_ time since I touched skyrim last time, but I can't remember one NPC which said something that changed my mind, or even left a lasting impression on me with his/her personality, values etc.

I can think of a few instances where that happened to me. The big one was when a certain child asked you to kill a certain old lady. At first, they set up that the lady is pretty much the worst person ever. However, other NPCs you talk to, admit that if she wasn't around, things would be a whole lot harder, and the consequences would not be fun. So, I, as a player (and character) decided that no matter how mean this old hag was, she wasn't a monster, and that she actually served a purpose that would no longer exist if she died.

Once again, your own mileage may vary. If you don't like the game, I'm sure as hell not going to convince you. But the game does do some things very very right, despite all complaints people have.
Regarding the bolded portion:

This is why it's so important to have an option to say "no". Yes, you as the player have decided that you will not kill this lady, but as far as the game and the universe in which your character lives go, you have still agreed to kill this lady, and there is still a kid waiting on you somewhere to kill this lady, and it will be that way forevermore until you kill that lady.

That's terrible. I don't care if the quest was to save a kitten. This isn't about morals. I reserve the right to refuse kitten rescues and old lady slaughters alike!
Yes, but everyone here pretty much agrees this sucks. I don't think anyone disputes that the dialog options in Skyrim were not a problem. I simply feel it is not big enough to outweigh all the things they did right since you still have every right to refuse to do it. if you don't want to do the quest, just don't. the only problem then is an entry in your journal. Annoying, yes, but not game breaking.
Edited by Squee913, Dec 10 2012, 06:22 PM.
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PvtCryan502
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More than Just a Conjurer of Cheap Tricks
Quests: I know that 99% they all go down to the ideal of protect npc caravan or collect this, clear this. I don't want this base idea I want something differnet like collect 15 gold bars so your tavern that you bought could have better decorations or defend the lawyer to get to his case so he can defend an orphanage or defeat laws of greedy normals. Come out of left field. Suprise me not bland straight down the middle get here get currency. Or get 5 pieces of paper. No lie, I liked the Bards College quest.
Leveling: Okay I meant grunt on grunt mano e mano(probably wrong) not mano e giant freaking beast that's the size of a McDonalds and at lunch rush probably just as heavy. Those big things are supposed to be hard. But I don't want to waltz into a bunch of thieves and not have to worry about my backside being stabbed.
Exploration: Okay 5 yrs. in the making they're not supposed to be the same I would expect them to be maybe more like 1 out of 5 supprisingly tmple like places of a cult of vampires that connects you to a conspiracy then end it right there plus I noticed the one about the wolf deadra and the necromancers that was cool, 45 bandit hidey holes not cool.
Weapons: Okay maybe I meant like you got a sword that is slightly better but I want maybe one sword that has that new flavor then just looking for those unique weapons like how Borderlands 2 gives you some pretty neat rankings of loot like maybe a purple amongst green's or in skyrim's a ork amongst that usual steel. I don't want to kill myself for something that is limeted with the unique weapons that are different in skyrim I want to have a chance for that (reference) pikachu amongst bug pokemon that's slim but still there.
Edited by PvtCryan502, Dec 10 2012, 06:38 PM.
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TheEdnar
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Ok, I feel like I've been whining a bit too much on the bad points of Skyrim. As I said in my first post I don't think it's a bad game, I can certainly see why some folks like it. For me the bad bits made it feel far too "meh" to have me play it for extended periods of time, but in the time I did spend with it I found several well done parts, such as:

1) Visuals, both the large, awe inspiring ones and the small inconsequential ones were done well. I'm not talking just like graphics quality but consistency. Things fit together and very, _very_ few things feel at all out of place. Which is quite an achievement if you think about it. The world is huge, and everything feels like it belongs. Architecture is fitting and interesting, nature beautiful, sometimes even breathtakingly so, and the fauna just feels right for the environment.

2) The customization options. The way skills were managed as well as the amount of gear and visual options for your character itself you're pretty much free to make exactly the person you want to. I loved the fact that playing a mageling, soldierly type, sneakthief, ranger, berserker, whatever character stereotype you wanted you could create and it would function, and you'd be able to beat the game with it. They had to have spent a good deal of time balancing that so the game didn't feel too tough for those who just breeze through the main quest as quickly as possible, nor quite a cakewalk (at least for a little while) for those who try to 100% the game.

3) The amount of fluff text. Since morrowind the series has had an insane amount of books, letters etc scattered all around the world that don't serve a purpose as such, but work as a great way to help immersion into the gameworld. History books, childrens stories, love letters, a shopping list left on the cupboard. Love the small touches that make the world feel that little bit more real.

So yea, the game got many things right. The parts it got wrong however were, unfortunately, the ones that tend to matter the most for me.
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PvtCryan502
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More than Just a Conjurer of Cheap Tricks
TheEdnar
Dec 10 2012, 06:54 PM
Ok, I feel like I've been whining a bit too much on the bad points of Skyrim. As I said in my first post I don't think it's a bad game, I can certainly see why some folks like it. For me the bad bits made it feel far too "meh" to have me play it for extended periods of time, but in the time I did spend with it I found several well done parts, such as:

1) Visuals, both the large, awe inspiring ones and the small inconsequential ones were done well. I'm not talking just like graphics quality but consistency. Things fit together and very, _very_ few things feel at all out of place. Which is quite an achievement if you think about it. The world is huge, and everything feels like it belongs. Architecture is fitting and interesting, nature beautiful, sometimes even breathtakingly so, and the fauna just feels right for the environment.

2) The customization options. The way skills were managed as well as the amount of gear and visual options for your character itself you're pretty much free to make exactly the person you want to. I loved the fact that playing a mageling, soldierly type, sneakthief, ranger, berserker, whatever character stereotype you wanted you could create and it would function, and you'd be able to beat the game with it. They had to have spent a good deal of time balancing that so the game didn't feel too tough for those who just breeze through the main quest as quickly as possible, nor quite a cakewalk (at least for a little while) for those who try to 100% the game.

3) The amount of fluff text. Since morrowind the series has had an insane amount of books, letters etc scattered all around the world that don't serve a purpose as such, but work as a great way to help immersion into the gameworld. History books, childrens stories, love letters, a shopping list left on the cupboard. Love the small touches that make the world feel that little bit more real.

So yea, the game got many things right. The parts it got wrong however were, unfortunately, the ones that tend to matter the most for me.
I kinda agree with the whining, but here
Graphics: Awesome
Fluff text: Amazing on how much they put on.
Customization: They made you say we will not give you presets, but they say make your own guy whether single multiclass, furry or Breton you can do that except multiracial.(Disclaimer: I love the other species elves, orks, khajits, lizards, etc.)
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Vosoros
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I come up with a brilliant, cunning plan for those who don't like Skyrim...so cunning you'll think a weasel up your trousers. Ready?

^_^

STOP buggering well playing it!

:O

See, utterly cunning and brilliant...it's almost like a consulted Baldrick for that plan!

;)
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Squee913
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Vosoros
Dec 11 2012, 10:16 AM
I come up with a brilliant, cunning plan for those who don't like Skyrim...so cunning you'll think a weasel up your trousers. Ready?

^_^

STOP buggering well playing it!

:O

See, utterly cunning and brilliant...it's almost like a consulted Baldrick for that plan!

;)
that is not helpful, nor is it contributing anything to the thread. Beyond that, many people could consider that insulting. Piph started this thread to try and gain perspective. What you just said is the equivalent of telling him to take his ball and go home.

To be clear, I am not trying to sound harsh or suggest you can't pop in and say something funny or lighthearted, nor do I think you had any intent to do anything but make people laugh. I simply want you to be more careful that you don't end up stepping on someone's toes ;)
Edited by Squee913, Dec 11 2012, 01:51 PM.
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Piph0
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Milkman
To Squee,

Quote:
 
I think the main difference is a game-play style. I went back over your Skyrim Streams and realized something that never occurred to me before. I don't think Skyrim was made with metagamers in mind. I think it was intended for role players. When you play a game like Skyrim or fallout 3 you do not role play a character (At least I have never seen you do that) You may restrict yourself in some way, but you always view yourself as a gamer controlling a character, and not the character himself. You see it as a game and treat it with a game mentality. You kill mammoths simply because you wanted to. You steal things just because you can etc etc. You do not try to treat Skyrim as a real world, or your character as a real person in that world with in game goals and motivations.

(Takes deep breath and holds up a finger)

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Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with this...

Oh.

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...I simply don't think Skyrim was made with that kind of gaming in mind. The developers tried to make a sandbox in which players can live another life in a fantasy world. They wanted to give you as many options in how you do this as possible. By not attempting to do this, by not creating a role and playing it, I feel you loose a vital part of what makes this game special.

I guess so, though I feel like I'm even handed. ^o) I would hope I could see where roleplaying would shine. You would have to ask but I think I could tell you if a game that I played helped with the roleplaying element.

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Let's take the unique item vs crafting item issue. If I wanted to play a treasure hunter who goes dungeon diving for lost items, I can. I can even find lots of interesting items that would make my efforts feel worth while...

I see your point.

Quote:
 
...If, on the other hand, I wanted to make a character with the goal of being a master blacksmith capable of crafting weapons that even surpass the weapons of legend, I could do that as well...

I think this argument is a bit to... let's just say you're 'metagaming' with your roleplay. A "what if" scenario with this exact game. If the game didn't have smithing>weapons of legend, I don't think that would be a sought out goal and before you say it, yes, it could happen.

Quote:
 
Let's say I have two players, one who feels crafting items makes the unique items he finds pointless, and another who feels nothing he ever crafts will ever be as good as the unique items he can already find and so will never feel like a master crafter. What do we do?

I actually have a solution; make Unique Equipment base stats the same as Daedric (Weapons and Heavy Armor) and Dragonbone (light armor) equipment and make sure there is a full set of Unique Armor or have the armor piece be interchangeable with a piece of the Daedric or Dragonbone set (for the set bonus perk not make all Unique armors pointless). Then you just slap on unique effects (like they did) to all of them. Ok, here's where smithing comes in. With Smithing you can make items, but where it really shines is its reinforcing (upgrade doesn't sound as cool B-) ) . See -- you can get Daedric and Drgonbone stuff without smithing (more so with the Daedric part), but reinforcing is why smithing is so good. Here is the problem in the game's reinforcement system, you can reinforce Unique stuff, but the reinforcement of said stuff would not count any of your perks that help reinforcing. If these two thing was implemented, the same stats and fixed reinforcing people can then decide on "Should I stick with the Unique weapon or Enchant something more for me?" I should also note not all unique items should be like this. There should be lesser Unique items around as well.

Quote:
 
Well, you give as many options as possible and leave it to the players to place rules on themselves for the character they want to play...

Oh, that was a question for... sorry to interrupt. :$

Quote:
 
...It makes more sense that way. Logically speaking, why shouldn't you be able to become a better crafter that the people who made the unique weapons? ...

I feel silly for saying this so much in this thread but -- Unique items are rewards and should feel like them.

Quote:
 
...Why can't you make legendary weapons yourself? ...

I know this is a personal thing. I always wondered the opposite. Why can you make weapons easily better than the weapons from Deities?

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...On the flip side, if you are a treasure hunter, you normally would not have the time to devote to smithing and, as such, would not be able to make legendary weapons...

In your words, why not? ;) To be fair, I'll argue both sides. First, why not: Well I've done both. My play style is very much akin to a treasure hunter, since I explored so much and my goal was to find neat stuff... and I'm a hoarder. Now, your side, if you wanted to tell a classic tale of the next Lara Croft, you wouldn't find her tinkering around with ingots. Then again you could always name her Lara Craft. :ermm:

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...Therefore the unique items you find are valuable...

Hey, I like collectibles too. They do have a story behind them and a neat name and look. I'm not taking that away from them; I just -- don't like them as a reward.

Quote:
 
... Within their proper roles, the mechanic works and makes sense. It is only when you don't choose a role and simply try to do everything the game lets you do with the same character, that this system does not work.

I'm saying the game is flawed at its base. As I said before, Smithing can make items, but is not needed to have them. Smithing’s real use is reinforcing. Removing Smithing only removes reinforcing, which wouldn't be a problem in the first place if the Unique Equipment was coded to accept Smithing perks. I'll just stop now. I just noticed I was repeating my solution thing. :-/

Quote:
 
You said that simply not crafting items is ignoring the problem, not solving it...

That's me. :$

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I say that if ignoring the problem has no negative ramifications on you in the short or long term, than ignoring the problem "is" solving it.

So you are ignoring the problem... K.

Quote:
 
Remember, that no game is tailor made for one players tastes.

But you said, oh, never mind, you just said
Quote:
 
I don't think Skyrim was made with metagamers in mind.
not "It was made for roleplaying."

Quote:
 
In order for your unique weapons to be the best in the game, you would have to take the ability to make better weapons away from the people who want that.

Look, the only thing I care about is the reward system. If the weapons suck but gave a 1% more damage with daggers when found, great! I feel like my character got rewarded. My character doesn't feel better when getting those items. Well, it does give +5 to swag. B-)

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If you want them to be the best weapons in the game, then just don't train in crafting.

Quote:
 
Even if I had no points in crafting, I can still find and make better weapons than unique Daedric Prince weapons.


Quote:
 
This way, you will find the unique weapons to be interesting and useful. Doing so has no negative implications to your game play and there for is not a problem.

You keep talking about other people’s gameplay style and taste. Then basically told me to change mine...

Quote:
 
On the hand, if we did it as you suggest, than anyone who wanted to make legendary weapons would just be out of luck. I do not see why you would say a game is worse because of a 100% optional feature.

Though only one part of my argument, it is optional. Everything else in the game is 100% optional too.

Quote:
 
I know you said you could make or find weapons better without crafting.

Hahaha! Sorry, this sounds like he's saying "Yes, yes, I know, I know." :D -- was thinking "It's like he knows what I'm going to say!"

Quote:
 
I am not sure what you mean, ...

But you were just... then why -- :( Why argue if you don't know what I’m saying?

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... but I find it hard to believe you could find or craft weapons that outclass a large number of the more powerful unique items without series effort.

Yeah, me too.

Quote:
 
Perhaps you might be able to find one or two items that outclass one or two unique items, but that is hardly enough to claim unique items in general useless. More details on what you mean could clear this up for me.

Well do! ^_^ Blanket statement: Unless I say otherwise, the base Damage/Armor Value is less than the top competitor of its respective class (Two handed Hammer, One Headed Sword). Also, most of these Unique Equipment have a unique affect. And another thing, you can have two Enchantments on anything that can be enchanted.

Azura's Star or The Black Star- This is one of the only thing that I can say hands down is better than it common counterpart. PS I also liked the quest for this one.

Dawnbreaker-
Quote:
 
In fact, I believe you can only put one enchantment on any weapon you craft. This sword has three.
Ok, it does not cast soul trap. The chance explosion for undead sounds cool, but not useful in about 80% of the scenarios in the game.

Ebony Blade- I haven't toyed around with this one because of what you need to do to upgrade it and I'm not a two-hander, but I do know the Ebony Blade cannot be reinforced. (I'm not sure if we are doing the whole reinforcement thing or not)

Ebony Mail- Unique armor can be out classed easily. Not only can they be out enchanted and out smithed but they are not part of a set and will stifle anyone who went who put points into that perk for either light or heavy armor.

Mace of Molag Bal- This one does out do the base damage the common one handed mace. With smithing done to both Unique and common, the common item still wins out.

Masque of Clavicus Vile- Unique armor can be out -- you know the drill. It's price enchantment is useful. I don't want to get in to the usefulness of buying and selling.

Mehrunes' Razor- I'll have to disagree with you and give you this one, if you're going dual welding this is a sick nasty weapon.

Oghma Infinium-
Quote:
 
increases skills of a certain path. Again, not that great since I can do that on my own.
I agree. The book increases skills by a lot but I didn't use it.

Ring of Namira- You can make better.

Sanguine Rose- Oh yeah, staffs! I forgot about those. Well, there are no stats to compare it to... Good effect though.

Spellbreaker- Though it has a better Base Armor stat then it common counterpart, Smithing strikes again! Also, its magic ward can be out classed by Magic Resistance by not needing to block to use it.

Volendrung- Not much to say about this one.
Quote:
 
drains 50 stamina. I honestly do not know how much stamina you can drain of a crafted enchantment so can't say how good this is.
Yeah I don't know either, I can go check but the system is -- hard to pin down.

Wabbajack-
Quote:
 
Who doesn't wanna turn big bad monsters into little bunnies???
What about those people who don't want big bad monsters turning into little bunnies? :P

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Long story short out of that list of 13, 10 would be very useful in the right hands and it would be almost impossible to make a single item with the same power.

2 to 4 in my book. 1 if you're looking for an overall useful item.

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As for the fact that exploring closes off some quest options. Can you tell me which ones?

I can't name the miscellaneous ones since I can't remember their names, but the Thieves Guild and Companions both suffer from these problems.

Quote:
 
I know you mentioned you liked how you could still do Moira's quest even after blowing up megaton. I never really liked this. It makes the act of blowing up a city less impact-full.

I thought the game did a good job of explaining what happened. If she dies the quest does end... just not in the whole bomb thing. And if you want impact it give you impact... the bobble head is dead! :'(

Quote:
 
I feel that certain actions should close some doors, but without know what specifically you are referring to, I can't really comment.

Oh, don't worry. It's just obvious glitched ones like you have the book a man wants but he won't take it because you got it before he asked for it..

Quote:
 
I can ask what the solution would be.

Better usage of flags.

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Let’s say you explore and kill someone who a quest later on needed you to talk to. This then closes off that quest. Why shouldn't this happen? Should the game just break immersion and make the person unkillable? To me, this makes it feel more like an actual world.

I agree.

Quote:
 
Now, that said, yes there are bugs that break the game from time to time (though I never really found many of them) And yes the lack of dialog options sucks for everyone (role play or not). These things hurt the game. However, they do not hurt it enough for it to outweigh are the things this game did right...

There's...
Quote:
 
...for me.
Oh, never mind.

Quote:
 
As I have said before, our main difference is our play style. You treat it as a game. I treat it as a virtual world. You clean out a cave because you expect there to be a treat at the end. I clear it out because my character feels it makes the world a safer place.

Why can't there be both? If there is a prize at the end, what does that take away from you.

Quote:
 
You learn every ability because you can, I limit myself to certain abilities to fit the role of my character. You do things/attack things just to see what happens. I only attack or do things that my character has in game motivation to do.

You have a point. I don't see the game in the same way, but that...

Quote:
 
Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with how you play.

OH YEAH! WELL, SAME TO YOU, BUDDY! (pouty-face) ^_^

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I simply do not thing Skyrim was made with your style of gaming at heart.

I cannot think of any reason why I should not like the game by the premise and genre alone. It should have been one of my favorite games. I sit here, moved to god-damn tears, just thinking about what could have been. Like, Fallout 3 is my favorite game. I don't know if am going to get 4 because of this game.
Edited by Piph0, Dec 12 2012, 02:08 AM.
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infernocanuck
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If I may add a little constructive criticism, I think it might be best not to treat the quoting-then-replying thing as a conversation. Reading a bunch of text just to read, "Oh, nevermind" at the end isn't the most... efficient way to debate on a forum. I would suggest just taking some sections that you really want to address, quote them, and then offer a succinct counter-argument. That is a more appealing way to read a post, rather then a huge wall of blue and white text.

As with all constructive criticisms, take this with a grain of sand.
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ClassicGamer102
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Piph0
Dec 12 2012, 02:07 AM

I cannot think of any reason why I should not like the game by the premise and genre alone. It should have been one of my favorite games. I sit here, moved to god-damn tears, just thinking about what could have been. Like, Fallout 3 is my favorite game. I don't know if am going to get 4 because of this game.
What do you mean you might not buy 4 because of Skyrrim? I don't think that the games would have anything to do with each other. A lot of people say that Fallout is Elder Scrolls with guns when it simply isn't! Honestly I don't think that when they make 4 that Skyrim will be thought about. If they did make the game more similar to Skyrim, say change the way you level up, I would be really disappointed. When I roleplay in Fallout I'm able to think about what my character has done and level up his skills based on what I thought he would have improved in.
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PvtCryan502
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More than Just a Conjurer of Cheap Tricks
Vosoros
Dec 11 2012, 10:16 AM
I come up with a brilliant, cunning plan for those who don't like Skyrim...so cunning you'll think a weasel up your trousers. Ready?

^_^

STOP buggering well playing it!

:O

See, utterly cunning and brilliant...it's almost like a consulted Baldrick for that plan!

;)
I would but see there's something called TIME. Which is very little due to work and Skyrim requires ENORMOUS COSMIC TIME and the problem is itty bitty playing space
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