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Is owning a pet the same as slavery and is it wrong or right?; look at Title.
Topic Started: Jul 4 2013, 09:00 PM (2,177 Views)
Torabisu
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My older brother and sister were having an debate on whether owning a pet was the same as slavery. I'm curious as well as promote you to share your thoughts, opinions and points.

My stance is that both slavery and owning a pet are the same.
1st off I look at whats the same about both slavery and pet owning is that from the owner perspective you feed, shelter, and provide for your pet/slave. The owner punishes the slave/pet when they do something that could lead them to hurting them self or damage property.
2end what i find different between pets and slaves is that humans have preferences over things wile animals we chose to think that they do not have any but truly we do not know if they have an preferences or not. I think that they do because a preference to me is to prefer one choice over another for example a dog may prefer food A over food B or another example *EDIT*(do not know what happen to my text but I will fix it.) that they may prefer one color over another like pink over yellow.*EDIT*
3erd in a if case scenario were in the future were we'll be able to see the thoughts of animals will lead to what happen with slaves and the civil war... actually I think that what will happen is that a bunch of laws will be made to blur out images of animals in media and cloths will be reacquired on animals and est.

Those are my thoughts on the subject and I'm excited to debate with you and I wish you an great day.
Edited by Torabisu, Jul 11 2013, 12:52 PM.
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Huzzahfortimelines
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Your 1st point:
The first half you mention that we give them food, shelter, and provide for our pets. I think we can both agree this is a bad thing. Second, we punish the pet if it does something that could lead them to hurting themself or damage property. Here's the difference between pets, and humans though. We can communicate with humans. If, for example, we would have well-taken-care-of humans, we have the decision to tell them that this could be dangerous, or damage property. You can't do this with pets, therefore, the only communication is with action. (And it's not like we cut off their paws each time they do something wrong.)

Your 2nd point:
Pretty much. Because their enviroment is limited, they have limited preferences. My old cat used to prefer being inside, instead of out. A good owner will know this, and adapt.

Your 3rd point:
I doubt it to be honest. I had another cat that we always treated extremely well. One day, he got lost and ran away from home. A week later he came back. Have you ever heard of a slave coming back to it's original master out of it's own free will? Actually, a whole lot of pets have the chance to run away in my neighbourhood. Dogs could flee when they're in the park, cats could run away almost all the time if they are allowed to freeroam. A heck of a lot don't, and those that do generally have a good reason for it.

Edited by Huzzahfortimelines, Jul 5 2013, 02:17 AM.
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Penguins4Freedom
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The Lord of Misrule & The Abbot of Unreason
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But really opinion time. Unlike Tora, I believe that slavery and pet owning are not the same, if merely for the fact that pets are not sophonts: intelligent beings with reasoning roughly near a human being's. With slavery, we enslave our own intelligent race, often against their will. With pets, we've created a client race who are mostly dependant upon human's for their existence and for humans they only serve as companions. Unlike with slaves, we don't demand them to build Pyramids or work in cotton fields, we ask our pets for nothing but a little companionship. And we take care of pets more than we have taken care of slaves, unless you know of a people who cleaned up their slaves shit for them.

Now saying that, if the pet is a cetacean i.e A blue whale or a bottlenose dolphin, then I would be worried. This is because I view some cetaceans AS being sophonts. Dolphins in particular have a language with different dialects, have exhibited both altruism and cruel behaviour, genuine cultures etc. etc. It's because I am for Cetacean rights and their great intelligence that I feel that they shouldn't be called pets.
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ViperKang
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Slavery and pet owning are so far removed from each other you'd need a fast moving vehicle to cross the distance between them.

Pets: Creatures that have been bred throughout history purely to serve in an ownership role. Dogs and cats are the most obvious of these animals but a pet is a creature that we put through luxury and ask nothing of it.

Slave: A person that is owned, normally against their will, and used to complete menial tasks. May be treated well but most likely will be given the bare minimum for survival. Normally has to watch as pets are treated better.

The only way I could see pets and slaves being even remotely compareable is in the case of say race horses or circus animals. Making animals perform for the enjoyment of humanity is wrong. But is a well fed and safe animal at the zoo a slave? Not only will it never know hardship but it can help educate humans so that its free roaming brethren can hopefully live unhassled. Sure it'll never roam for miles but it'll also never know hunger or sickness within the zoo's capacity.

A slave is purely to serve their master. Period. You do good in your capacity as a slave well then whoop dee doo that's your lot in life. You do bad and you may be beaten severly (not just a slap on the nose with a newspaper), starved, sexually assaulted or maimed. I understand wanting animals to be treated fairly and of course my heart goes out to any animal who has been abused but if you could go back in time and ask a slave who's master owns a pet if they think the animal has it as rough as them they'd laugh in your face.
Edited by ViperKang, Jul 5 2013, 08:28 AM.
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Vosoros
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Ohhhh I remember animal ethics from my philosophy stuides at university...

As I recall, I reached a simple conclusion to draw the line between slavery and living together...regardless of species. I beliveve it went something like; if the other individual is treated with equal consideration (equal treatment being a flawed notion), and is free to leave, (as well as not exploited for anothers personal gain or amusement) then they are not slaves.

Soooo, I'm one of the rare ones that "owns" a dog who is not a slave given how I treat my dog. She has literally chosen to stay, and I have taught her a few things to keep her safe in this modern "civil" world.

Now, a individual who owns a horse (IMHO) for the express purpose of riding it at it's leisure and for it's own amusment does treat that individual horse as a slave...no matter how nice the other aspects of its life!

However, IMHO, those in a "civilised" society are ALL slaves, regardless of species. Why? The goverment forceably exploits us for financial gain...

I could go into more depth in the matter, but I thought I'd just offer a few cents worth for the time being...

-_-
Edited by Vosoros, Jul 5 2013, 01:03 PM.
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Torabisu
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"We can communicate with humans. If, for example, we would have well-taken-care-of humans, we have the decision to tell them that this could be dangerous, or damage property. You can't do this with pets, therefore, the only communication is with action. (And it's not like we cut off their paws each time they do something wrong.)"- Huzzahfortimelines

I think that we can communicate with animals for example take my brother's pugs when they hear the world "Treat" they get truly existed and before my brother gives them the treat he gets them to perform tricks like "Roll over" or "Stand". Than he as well as rewards them for when ever the leave there waist outside. than when they do something "Wrong" what he does is gives them a time out for 5-15 minutes to think about what they did and a grantee that it does have affect I've seen it first hand which shows that were able to communicate with them whats "Right" and "Wrong" And you might say that its different with humans because were able to go into more detail with a language that of which allows humans to communicate and explain why but when you were a child weren't you punished or rewarded on what you did?


"Pretty much. Because their enviroment is limited, they have limited preferences. My old cat used to prefer being inside, instead of out. A good owner will know this, and adapt."- Huzzahfortimelines

I do not think its limitation on there environment but there knowledge of the world is what affects there amount of preferences and sense its harder to communicate with animals than other humans were unable to educate them. Yes I do believe that they can understand how the world works just as they can understand what a treat is.


"Your 3rd point:
I doubt it to be honest. I had another cat that we always treated extremely well. One day, he got lost and ran away from home. A week later he came back. Have you ever heard of a slave coming back to it's original master out of it's own free will? Actually, a whole lot of pets have the chance to run away in my neighborhood. Dogs could flee when they're in the park, cats could run away almost all the time if they are allowed to free roam. A heck of a lot don't, and those that do generally have a good reason for it."- Huzzahfortimelines

What I meant to say was that once animals have the power to communicate with humans they will have the power to debate, choice, be educated and other things like that which will leads to amendments giving freedoms to animals allowing pets have the right to do as they wish which many would think would be a bad thing but I say at that point they will have the power to understand the world and become hard working citizens like graphic designers and take other jobs and do as they please as long as following the laws... Some may think that this will take so much time but is say humans are truly much the same as they were 12,000 years ago.


I < 3 the pick Penguin


"if merely for the fact that pets are not sophonts: intelligent beings with reasoning roughly near a human being's. With slavery, we enslave our own intelligent race, often against their will. With pets, we've created a client race who are mostly dependant upon human's for their existence"- Penguins4Freedom

I believe that pets could have the reasoning of a person if we were able to communicate with them at the level as a person and educate them. (that's just my opinion.) I think that we are holding pets against there will because what your doing is keeping them within a home not being aloud to go roam the world as the please but let me ask you if they knew about the world and bye that I mean understand politics, dangers, and the great things of the world do think that they will chose to leave or stay? What I'm trying to get at is that if pets could communicate with there human roommate that they would like to see an movie and its aloud bye the government than i see nothing wrong with it if the human did not wish to go see this movie and the pets is aloud to still go see this movie due to the fact of that they know what to do and not and once the movie is over they return home to there roommate. But in the case scenario were the owner is unable to communicate with the animal at a human level than the pet preference is to go explore the world and you communicate with them bye giving them treats when they done something good and give them a time out when they done something wrong and yes I believe that pets can understated what humans want because I seen how my brother's pugs react to the word "Treat".


"Now saying that, if the pet is a cetacean i.e A blue whale or a bottlenose dolphin, then I would be worried. This is because I view some cetaceans AS being sophonts. Dolphins in particular have a language with different dialects, have exhibited both altruism and cruel behaviour, genuine cultures etc. etc. It's because I am for Cetacean rights and their great intelligence that I feel that they shouldn't be called pets. "- Penguins4Freedom

I think that every animal have there own language for example one pug A may growl at another pug B because pug B stole food from pug A or another example is that there are two people in a dessert both of them do not speak any verbal language. Person A has drink water within a day wile person B has plenty of water. What person A does to communicate to person B is that he acted(pretended) out him being by a pool of water and drinking from it than pointing at the bottles of water that person B has. Person B shakes his head up and down wile handing a bottle of water to person A. Just because some animals have verbal languages does not mean that all other animals do not have a language and are unable to communicate with one another.


"Pets: Creatures that have been bred throughout history purely to serve in an ownership role. Dogs and cats are the most obvious of these animals but a pet is a creature that we put through luxury and ask nothing of it.

Slave: A person that is owned, normally against their will, and used to complete menial tasks. May be treated well but most likely will be given the bare minimum for survival. Normally has to watch as pets are treated better.

The only way I could see pets and slaves being even remotely compareable is in the case of say race horses or circus animals. Making animals perform for the enjoyment of humanity is wrong. But is a well fed and safe animal at the zoo a slave? Not only will it never know hardship but it can help educate humans so that its free roaming brethren can hopefully live unhassled. Sure it'll never roam for miles but it'll also never know hunger or sickness within the zoo's capacity.

A slave is purely to serve their master. Period. You do good in your capacity as a slave well then whoop dee doo that's your lot in life. You do bad and you may be beaten severly (not just a slap on the nose with a newspaper), starved, sexually assaulted or maimed. I understand wanting animals to be treated fairly and of course my heart goes out to any animal who has been abused but if you could go back in time and ask a slave who's master owns a pet if they think the animal has it as rough as them they'd laugh in your face."- ViperKang

Do you think that pets have rational thoughts for example ""I rather go poop out side now but I can not get out there because my owners are at work"thinks the pug." I think that they do (just my opinion) because they can understand things that make there owner happy and communicate with them if they are hungry by barking just as a baby crys when its hungry.


"As I recall, I reached a simple conclusion to draw the line between slavery and living together...regardless of species. I beliveve it went something like; if the other individual is treated with equal consideration (equal treatment being a flawed notion), and is free to leave, (as well as not exploited for anothers personal gain or amusement) then they are not slaves.

Soooo, I'm one of the rare ones that "owns" a dog who is not a slave given how I treat my dog. She has literally chosen to stay, and I have taught her a few things to keep her safe in this modern "civil" world.

Now, a individual who owns a horse (IMHO) for the express purpose of riding it at it's leisure and for it's own amusment does treat that individual horse as a slave...no matter how nice the other aspects of its life!

However, IMHO, those in a "civilised" society are ALL slaves, regardless of species. Why? The goverment forceably exploits us for financial gain..."- Vosoros

I completely agree because first if your "pet" is equal to the point were that's how you wish to be treated than its not slavery its just that its your roommate. Also Vosoros sense you "educated" your dog do you consider that your pet can understand and reason things?



If you read all that thank you = D and I wish you a great day.
Edited by Torabisu, Jul 11 2013, 02:38 PM.
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ViperKang
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I don't know if they have rational thought per se but I think they definitely have preference. Like I don't think they have any thoughts geared to specific right and wrong but they know what actions get them good things and what gets them punished and so they'll choose to avoid the bad thing but the fact that they will still do it shows that they do not have rational enough thought to go "I did this once and it sucked I'll never do it again."

For example my friend had a dog that would find corners of the house to pee even though people were around to take it outside, it had been trained for outside, and everytime it peed inside it got disciplined. Yet it would constantly go in a corner and pee and act like everything was fine until it heard it's name shouted. Then it would hang its head, take the punishment, and do it all over again. A rational being, person OR animal, would not do this.
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Penguins4Freedom
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The Lord of Misrule & The Abbot of Unreason
"I believe that pets could have the reasoning of a person if we were able to communicate with them at the level as a person and educate them."

I am sorry but this is just wrong. Firstly, because dogs brains are really tiny and the most they can understand are grunts and simple noises. Dog's brains are not equipped for human level speech. There is a difference between "Treat" and "Sit" than "Would you please take a seat?" or "Would you like something nice to eat?". The dog doesn't know what the word Treat means, he doesn't know what syntax, punctuation, adjectives, nouns, clauses, ANYTHING. All the dog knows is that whenever the smelly human says these random syllables, he may give a treat to Dog. There is a difference between Pavlovian response and actual intelligence.

Secondly, IF we could talk to dogs, we still wouldn't be able to understand each other. Our experiences are fundamentally different from that of a dog. To a dog, the notion of government would be nonsensical, the notion of a movie. In fact, the whole idea of opposable thumbs would be something completely alien to his doggy experience. In the same way, we wouldn't be able to understand the dog point of view. While we may try, the fact is that to understand the dog language we would have to see through the eyes of a dog, smell things like a dog, sense the world like a dog and understand the collective mindset of a dog. An example would be when Cmdr Shepard recieves the Prothean beacon but cant understand her visions it as the information comes directly from a Prothean point of view. And so to fully make sense of it, Shepard has to gain the Cipher, the collective unconscious of the Prothean race to decipher it.

Again I have to make the point that just because a dog can follow simple commands and a slight hand gesture DOES NOT mean it has a language. Hell Pigs are more intelligent than dogs are and they dont give a fuck about commands. Dogs communicate in visceral savage animal like ways which carry very little meaning or subtlety, although they are distorted because they are humanity's client race. To say there is a dog language, let alone a dog culture or dog morality is laughable, I am sorry.
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Torabisu
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"I don't know if they have rational thought per se but I think they definitely have preference. Like I don't think they have any thoughts geared to specific right and wrong but they know what actions get them good things and what gets them punished and so they'll choose to avoid the bad thing but the fact that they will still do it shows that they do not have rational enough thought to go "I did this once and it sucked I'll never do it again."

For example my friend had a dog that would find corners of the house to pee even though people were around to take it outside, it had been trained for outside, and everytime it peed inside it got disciplined. Yet it would constantly go in a corner and pee and act like everything was fine until it heard it's name shouted. Then it would hang its head, take the punishment, and do it all over again. A rational being, person OR animal, would not do this."- ViperKang

You said that you think that animals have preferences which gets me to think that maybe your friend's dog prefer to get punished than to hold his bladder. But I guess we will not know until we get the technology. = D


"because dogs brains are really tiny and the most they can understand are grunts and simple noises"- Penguins4Freedom

I do not think size matters haven't you seen the size of the brain of the elephant.


" Dog's brains are not equipped for human level speech. There is a difference between "Treat" and "Sit" than "Would you please take a seat?" or "Would you like something nice to eat?""- Penguins4Freedom

Neither does a baby but over time the baby is trained to know how to speak and understand the meanings and with animals they lack the voice box to pronounce the words but a parrot is able to speak and maybe its harder for fish than pugs but that because mammals have a neocortex.


" The dog doesn't know what the word Treat means"- Penguins4Freedom

probity the dog definitional is different from yours but it does not mean that they have no meaning for that word for example if you checked the dictionary the word "derp" it says "A simple, undefined reply when an ignorant comment or action is made." but to you maybe and me it may mean something else like a theme or team.


"he doesn't know what syntax, punctuation, adjectives, nouns, clauses,"- Penguins4Freedom

I barley know what many of those words even mean = D


"All the dog knows is that whenever the smelly human says these random syllables, he may give a treat to Dog. There is a difference between Pavlovian response and actual intelligence."- Penguins4Freedom

I think that the pet cares if it's owner is happy because they provide food, treats, shelter, entertainment when they play together and est. To me intelligence is the ability to reason things for example "when owner tells me to "sit' it means a sit on my bum (maybe they dount think the same words as you and I but they think the same meaning) than I will get treat."


"Secondly, IF we could talk to dogs, we still wouldn't be able to understand each other. Our experiences are fundamentally different from that of a dog. To a dog, the notion of government would be nonsensical, the notion of a movie. In fact, the whole idea of opposable thumbs would be something completely alien to his doggy experience."- Penguins4Freedom

You both know what its like to be hungry, happy and what treat means and how is would it be any different from teaching a baby how to speak if anything I would think it would be easy-er.


"While we may try, the fact is that to understand the dog language we would have to see through the eyes of a dog, smell things like a dog, sense the world like a dog and understand the collective mindset of a dog."- Penguins4Freedom

Its one of those "what if scenarios" were we have the technology were we can which some would say "Thats impossible" and I thought the same about cloning but apparently its now a reality.


"Again I have to make the point that just because a dog can follow simple commands and a slight hand gesture DOES NOT mean it has a language"- Penguins4Freedom

What you may consider as a language may be different from mines because I think that simple hand gestures showing that I'm thirsty is a language just as math is a language. My definitional of language: any form of communication from one being to another.(that not the dictionary definition, thats just my view, opinion of what a language means.)


"Hell Pigs are more intelligent than dogs are and they dont give a fuck about commands."- Penguins4Freedom

Thats because canines have evolved to read humans emotions the most compared to every other animal on earth (besides other humans) because they have bean trained. Like humans they bean trained.


"Dogs communicate in visceral savage animal like ways which carry very little meaning or subtlety"- Penguins4Freedom

I disagree because the language has little terms does not mean that that they do not have meaning or subtlety for a cat will perr to be thankful or when my brother's pugs lick one another its a symbol that of which the other understands. I even trained my cat to do a maneuver that symbolizes that he wants food. I go to check if his bowl is empty which it turns out it is every time he does that maneuver.


"To say there is a dog language, let alone a dog culture or dog morality is laughable"- Penguins4Freedom

for culture all that means to me is "a different way" which bye that I mean is there more than one way of doing a task and bye other peoples "cultures" I learn new meanings and ways of doing stuff. morality to me means "rules for ones self" for instance Ill never eat another human because thats who I am but someone else may feel different. Truly morality is just what one thinks to be the best way to survive or lives ones life for instance take the Acolyte of War and Archon Malarch from Echoes of Eternity. What they hold for morals will be different due to different cultures they were risen in.

You might know and if not I will elaborate wolfs they hunt in packs. Commonly a pack will contain O about 5 or 6 members (# I made up(does not matte that much for my point)) every pack have a pack leader(fact) who makes all of the dissensions and at any moment he can decide that one of the pack members is to weak and leave him behind threw there language(that not my point here). They will not kill the band member but simply leave him behind so that he may join another pack who's leader believes that this one has potential. This shows that animals have a morality because they believe that bye working together and understanding not to attack another wolfe like humans know not to fight amongst one anther...


"I am sorry"- Penguins4Freedom

For what I'm having a great time. = D
Edited by Torabisu, Jul 11 2013, 04:41 PM.
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Torabisu
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Torabisu smells something funny withen the air he turns around to see a big pile of poop in rage Torabisu yells "Dame it pugs I took both of you at like 47ish times today the last just 5 min ago!!!"
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