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Is owning a pet the same as slavery and is it wrong or right?; look at Title.
Topic Started: Jul 4 2013, 09:00 PM (2,183 Views)
bluwolfie
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Vosoros
Aug 10 2013, 04:24 AM
bluwolfie
Aug 9 2013, 10:25 PM
Vosoros
Jul 20 2013, 02:09 AM
Torabisu
Jul 11 2013, 02:29 PM
I completely agree because first if your "pet" is equal to the point were that's how you wish to be treated than its not slavery its just that its your roommate. Also Vosoros sense you "educated" your dog do you consider that your pet can understand and reason things?
Comminication is completely possibly with a dog. Just because they don't comminicate in the manner that humans do is irrelevant to the prospect of intelligence, compassion, individuality...and the "right" to freedom!

But I never been able to convince others of my thoughts on such matter, no matter how eloquent my tounge or logically compelling my argument. Ah well...

^_^
I've pretty much always thought this. Empathy is a means of communication. Granted, it may not be defined as "language" but it is a form of speech all it's own. Often a dog will know what it's owner needs, all on instinct. Who cares where it comes from, it doesn't change the fact that dogs are able to sense such things. Sure, maybe they can't vocalize extremely complex concepts or fully understand what it is they are feeling, but they often know exactly how to react to it.

Though, I don't think it's slavery.. And I don't really understand your argument for them to be "Free" if you mean to not be owned, I don't think dogs would care either way because they are pack animals. The pack is life, Alphas are sought out by their very nature. Can't get more true to dog nature than that.
The state of one's prefered exsistence is not in question...but the freedom to choose IS. If a dog see's a better owner (or alpha might be a better term), shouldn't the individual dog (if not a slave), have the choice to leave its current pack for a better one?

Also, when a human works, they have the choice to opt out or change their vocation. The nature of freedom and free will is such, it's absence being slavery...or at least akin to slavery. Soooo, should a dog (as an intelligent and feeling sentient being) not have the same choice? Should the same definations not apply as to the nature of freedom and slavery by extension?

I fear thousands of years of social and religious conditioning (which many vheomently argue, isn't), blinds us based on species...

But there we go anyhow. A few more cents worth you may care to contemplate.

-_-
Yeah but from what I understand about dogs, they do pretty much choose you. If you earn their respect they will follow you. A dog isn't built like that. It's not going to seek greener pastures because they are already in doggy heaven. They live in the now, I don't think dogs EVER plan more than two or three steps ahead. Cats on the other hand...

I don't think being pets is counter to their nature, and I think it would do them a disservice to expect them to not do what comes naturally to them.. Sure, we use it, but so do the alphas of their own packs. I don't think it's wrong because the dogs live full lives and are very happy, maybe a bit ignorant of our reasons. Dogs follow a strong leader because it used to mean survival. It's still kinda true you know, they help people.. Especially service dogs, but even pets.. They keep their owner happy and from being lonely, they form a bond of trust and mutual understanding. It's not something spoken but it is there. They are just that loyal. It's life to them, without it a dog is lost. That's just how they are, and they don't hate it or feel bad about it, they don't even really consider it. They just love it. If we just gave the dogs choice, even if there was some way we could implement it, I bet they would follow the choice of whoever they see as their alpha ANYWAY. And other alpha dogs would probably go wild, or follow a stronger human anyway. Or try to control weak people.

They do that now! Alphas will control weak people, and it doesn't work. They can't live like that because they live in a human world, unless there's some leap in their intelligence and grasping of certain concepts they will go back to a wild mindset. It's not a bad point of view you're suggesting but I'd say it's a little premature, and misguided.. We give them as much consideration as they will accept as it is.



On the topic of intelligence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6WWyxK_OaU

What do people think of this? I consider this to be a powerful indication of intelligence. Sure, it's not like human intelligence but it's pretty damn awesome. Sure, he found the dumpster with his nose.. But he fucking figured out how to get the food, and he knew to take it away from there. Smart, no?
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Vosoros
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ClassicGamer102
Aug 10 2013, 11:45 AM
No, dogs shouldn't have vacation time because if your dog is a pet then it doesn't really do anything. I have a dog and all he does is sleep, eat,vacate his bowls/colon, and bark. What would his vacation be? Doing all of this but not getting in trouble when he pisses and shits somewhere he shouldn't?
By that logic, no retired human should be allow to go on vacation...little harsh ain't it? Also, do you provide stumilating opportunities for your dog, or is he/she merely making the best of the life they lead?

For example, I walk my dog for several hour and numerous miles...play fetch, provide snack-style hide and seek games...etc

A vacation isn't just a physical break, it can be a mental and emotional one too. And for some...that means doing absoltely nothing!

;)
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Torabisu
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" I think the two are just so absurdly far apart and it's extremely unfair to slaves to say they're the same. Even work animals aren't slaves, and I think it's hyperbolic beyond reason to say they are. At worst, one can abuse an animal, which is terrible. But enslave? No, I think it's absolutely worlds away from slavery. " ~ Warden

Do you have any points or reasons on why the two terms are far apart in meaning that have not bean brought up yet???
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Warden of Wisdom
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The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. -Carl Sagan
Honestly, I don't think it even requires that much thought. Say, for a moment, that animals are at the same level of intellect and sentience as a human (which they are not). Would you rather be kept in a house, most likely heated and cooled, with owners who pay for all of your medical expenses, feed you, take you on walks, play with you, and love you, or would you rather be either kidnapped or born into a life of work, most likely involving sexual abuse, where there is no chance of freedom and you at the very whim of your master and must obey his every word or be severely harmed, killed, or worse?
For the average pet, the worst part of its life is being stuck in a place it does not want to be (which is actually uncommon).
For the average slave, the very best probably involves torture, starvation, rape, forced labor, cruelty, malnourishment, disease, infection, and every emotional trauma that they bring.
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Torabisu
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" Yeah but from what I understand about dogs, they do pretty much choose you. If you earn their respect they will follow you. A dog isn't built like that. It's not going to seek greener pastures because they are already in doggy heaven. They live in the now, I don't think dogs EVER plan more than two or three steps ahead. Cats on the other hand... " ~ Wolfe

There are also people who barley plan out a single step.


" I don't think being pets is counter to their nature, and I think it would do them a disservice to expect them to not do what comes naturally to them. Sure, we use it, but so do the alphas of their own packs. I don't think it's wrong because the dogs live full lives and are very happy, maybe a bit ignorant of our reasons. Dogs follow a strong leader because it used to mean survival. It's still kinda true you know, they help people. Especially service dogs, but even pets. They keep their owner happy and from being lonely, they form a bond of trust and mutual understanding. It's not something spoken but it is there. They are just that loyal. It's life to them, without it a dog is lost. That's just how they are, and they don't hate it or feel bad about it, they don't even really consider it. They just love it. If we just gave the dogs choice, even if there was some way we could implement it, I bet they would follow the choice of whoever they see as their alpha ANYWAY. And other alpha dogs would probably go wild, or follow a stronger human anyway. Or try to control weak people. " ~ Wolfe

True they are happy but what I'm saying is that dount they deserve freedom?

True they knead someone to give them purpose but dount we all? And if so than whats the difference from a person and a animal than the amount of information and reasoning process that's always evolving?

Whats wrong with animals controlling weak people???


" They do that now! Alphas will control weak people, and it doesn't work. They can't live like that because they live in a human world, unless there's some leap in their intelligence and grasping of certain concepts they will go back to a wild mindset. It's not a bad point of view you're suggesting but I'd say it's a little premature, and misguided. We give them as much consideration as they will accept as it is. " ~ Wolfe

Should we as humans be ready for the day that comes when they shall grasp such intelligence and understanding?
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Torabisu
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" Honestly, I don't think it even requires that much thought. Say, for a moment, that animals are at the same level of intellect and sentience as a human (which they are not). Would you rather be kept in a house, most likely heated and cooled, with owners who pay for all of your medical expenses, feed you, take you on walks, play with you, and love you, or would you rather be either kidnapped or born into a life of work, most likely involving sexual abuse, where there is no chance of freedom and you at the very whim of your master and must obey his every word or be severely harmed, killed, or worse?
For the average pet, the worst part of its life is being stuck in a place it does not want to be (which is actually uncommon).
For the average slave, the very best probably involves torture, starvation, rape, forced labor, cruelty, malnourishment, disease, infection, and every emotional trauma that they bring.
" Warden

" Freedom
1. The state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2. Exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. The power to determine action without restraint.
4. Political or national independence.
5. personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery: a slave who bought his freedom. " ~ Dictionary.com

Let me ask you lets say I had a person who was not aloud to leave the house unless I aloud it with a leach, punishes them by putting them in a room and leaving them there for ten minutes if they have done something I disliked, but I have provide plenty of food for them, warmth, safety, they do not have to work, if the person got sick I provide medicine, and played games with them and treated them equal to that of a pet.
Is that slavery?
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Warden of Wisdom
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The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. -Carl Sagan
First of all, dogs are not people. They never will be.

Second of all, I thought you meant either historic or modern day slavery, not the scenario you gave which does not exist.

Third of all, it may be considered slavery, but what you described sounds a lot like owning children (credit to Marx for the analogy.)
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Torabisu
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" First of all, dogs are not people. They never will be. " ~ Warden

You have your views and I have mine. ^ v ^


" Second of all, I thought you meant either historic or modern day slavery, not the scenario you gave which does not exist.

Third of all, it may be considered slavery, but what you described sounds a lot like owning children (credit to Marx for the analogy.) " ~ Warden

The reason I said slavery was because I lacked a better word that described what I intended at the time of making this thread and I agree a better word is children. I just wanted to see if I could prove that slavery and pets were the same because I find debates to be like a game that's entertaining for someone with my kind of perspective.

But let me ask should we attempt to raise pets the same as children were they grow up and make there own choices for themselves and giving them true freedom or leave them as they are now for they are satisfied with what they have and never be able to do exactly what they wish???
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Warden of Wisdom
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The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. -Carl Sagan
The latter. Because what they wish is to survive. Living in a house, where your safe and looked after, and you eat for free, is survival. It goes against any instinct to run away unless abused. Most dog runaways are accidents. Dogs are, for the most part, creatures of instinct. Trust me, pets are happy if they have a good owner. If an owner is abusive, then THAT'S when the pet should be taken away.
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ClassicGamer102
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"-Never able to do exactly what they wish?"

I don't understand your meaning here, I have a dog and he has never seemed to have any desire other than to lounge around, eat once or twice a day, and occasionally urinate or defaecate where he shouldn't.
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