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| Is owning a pet the same as slavery and is it wrong or right?; look at Title. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 4 2013, 09:00 PM (2,181 Views) | |
| Vosoros | Aug 20 2013, 02:58 AM Post #41 |
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I get the sense that we have a philospher with a fantastic series of sound and logical arguments being made, arguing with an individual type who's never going to accept such arguments no matter how well presented. I'll let folk here decide who's who... Oh well, I guess this debate's reached an empass nevertheless. I would seem an earlier statement of mine is proving quite true in lfe once more; not matter how eloquently or logically I argue, some people just vheomently disagree. Maybe one day huh...
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| Torabisu | Oct 17 2013, 11:18 PM Post #42 |
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Lets open up this again. I have reformed my argument/debate for any who wish to challenge it: _A. Are animals capable of reasoning, sentient intelligence, and learning? I would debate that yes animals are capable. __My evidence: ___ ___Neuroscience and Animal Sentience _B. If animals are capable of reasoning, sentient intelligence, and learning than should people "enlighten" them? I would argue yes. |
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| ViperKang | Oct 17 2013, 11:55 PM Post #43 |
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Is an animal capable of learning? Of course. That's rather obvious as you can teach an animal tricks and you can teach them to respond to certain words. Are they able to reason? Now that's something different. Problem solving is one thing. Many species are capable of solving a problem put in front of them. Can they do math? Can they write an essay? Can they debate philosophy? No. Clearly they cannot otherwise they'd have done it by now. Many of the animals we have with us today have been around as long if not longer than humanity. We evolved to the creature we are today. And we are the only creature to have done so. Which shows that we are the only ones on this planet capable of higher brain functions like architecture and plumbing and such. Does this mean there aren't rudimentary forms of this in the wild? Of course not. But those are out of learned necessity. Animals will have specific spots to defecate. Does this mean they consciously have labeled that spot the bathroom? No. It's because all animals understand that feces isn't something you want to be around. So that bit of text above leads me to say that no animal is capable of adult human level intelligence. Why do I say adult level? Because animals such as Chimpanzees have been given IQ's equivalent to a 4 year old child. Does that mean they will ever break above that threshold? Maybe. But it will either be by evolution or due to genetic manipulation by humanity. They cannot become as smart as say a high schooler just from sending them to a class. Now as for SHOULD we manipulate their intelligence to a higher standard I give an emphatic no. I strongly believe that if they were meant to be on our level as far as intelligence goes then they would be. It is not our place to "enlighten" or "raise up" these creatures. We have no idea what a forced mental evolution would do. Imagine being a Dolphin for example. These creatures are incredibly smart and it could be argued, and I support this argument, that they have a language that they use to speak amongst themselves. Now imagine having the IQ of your typical 20 yr old human. You can learn languages. Appreciate art. Understand the implications of moral rights and wrongs. That'd be a huge leap for them. Unfortunately they are stuck in Dolphin bodies. They have no hands or feet. All they can do is swim, eat and reproduce. This would be a hell to them as they would want to do things that nature never evolved them to do. Now take something like a Chimpanzee. We "enlighten" them and force their brains to get on our level. They then find out that they are killed for sport. Used as test subjects and kept in zoos for us to look at. Hell they find out that in our quest to make them smarter several Chimps lost their lives due to failures and mishaps. Do you really think they'd look at their scientist handler and shake his/her hand and look to coexist with us? Or do you think that they'd react with horror? And what happens when they see the atrocities we commit to ourselves and other animals? I'd say giving them the ability to understand the monsters that we as a race are would be far more cruel than what we subject them to already. Best leave them where nature intended. And if nature wants Chimps and Dolphins and other animals to grow and evolve to be our intellectual equals then so be it. We'll cross that bridge when we reach it. Edited by ViperKang, Oct 18 2013, 12:58 PM.
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| Torabisu | Nov 16 2013, 01:17 PM Post #44 |
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Let's define what 'reason' means: According to Google it states "The power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic." I than checked the definitions of think, understand and logic according to Google as well in attempt to get a deeper meaning: Think = "Direct one's mind toward someone or something; use one's mind actively to form connected ideas." Understand = "Infer something from information received." and Logic = "Reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity." Based on my grasp of what reason means I would say the video below demonstrates clearly that there are animals capable of reasoning and to me it seams possible that every animal that makes a conscious choice has reasoning in some form. But what ViperKang is referring to my understanding is an 'higher level of reasoning' like engineering, mathematics and philosophy but I must ask at what level? For in this video below the dog is clearly able to read and solve math problems. Possible he means the ability for one to ponder about ideals or problems, which do not directly rewards oneself or may seem pointless to those who live a 'simpler' life, fore example "To be or not to be..." by William Shakespeare. The understanding and value of self existence(that's my interpretation), which leads me to then ask do animals know that fellow animals hold emotions and cognitive ability's? To answer the question I found the videos below. But what about another species? Now at this moment to my awareness animals are not able to participate as a citizen or part take in some activities of humans but I do think that threw breeding, research, evolution, practice, and other methods animals are capable of Homo sapiens level of life whether it shall be soon threw a technological leap or down the line of time. Also because dolphin do not have hands or feet does not mean they are unable to express themselves and experience new things but what would stop them is a lack of motivation. Take this video below for example of how with will power and strength one can over come any obstacle. In ViperKang's last paragraph my response is that I would agree that the Chimpanzee would be likely to be enraged by our actions; hence, what we must do it not push to hard to the point where our experiments are unethical but they do deserve representation and to take away that possibility is only supporting the very thing they and many other animals would be disgusted with. Think about the billions of farm animals that are killed each year to feed people without any say from their kind. What if an alien race came to earth and enslave Humans for food. For thousands of years in the future people would be born to know that they have no control of there lives and that it shall end within a stomach. Now some may argue that the world would will run out of food but I think that problem is not there's low amounts of food but instead that there is to many people in the world; as well as, farm animals who consume a massive amount of energy in food to only give humans approximately ten percent of it as it transfers from the sun to plants to animals and eventually to humans. True there shall allows be suffering but we must takes steps to decreases the amount of pain in the world by taking the correct steps. The video below goes more into detail of the lives of farm animals. *Edit November 26th 2013* Here is an short entertaining animation of our possible sy-fy future... Edited by Torabisu, Nov 26 2013, 09:12 PM.
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| Torabisu | Dec 7 2013, 11:32 PM Post #45 |
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Here's a video of the most recent that relates to the debate. |
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| Warden of Wisdom | Dec 8 2013, 01:36 AM Post #46 |
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The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. -Carl Sagan
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Ugh, please. Other animals cannot learn math. Other animals are not sentient. Other animals are not aware of their position in the world. Ethology of other animals is based on patterns that developed as a result of evolution, not conscious thought. Animals that live on farms, for the most part, live good, comfortable, well fed, safe lives and are not aware of their purpose. I would take this over constantly being hunted or fighting for survival every day. If aliens enslaved humans, that would be absolutely and utterly different. I honestly think it's a stupid analogy and completely reason-less. Emotion is an evolutionary device as part of social animals. Humans are the most developed and complex of social creatures. While some animals do have society, their emotions are simple, instinctive, and far below the level of impact and complexity of ours. The evolution of a creature as complex, intelligent, social, and nature-breaking as homo sapiens sapiens is so incredibly rare that there's a reason we're the only one on the planet. And yes, we're the only one on the planet. |
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| Torabisu | Dec 8 2013, 01:45 PM Post #47 |
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What is your prove that animals cannot learn math; are not sentient, and unaware of their own position? Did not conscious thoughts in humans came vie evolution and also Warden, what constitutes to consciousness in your book? Warden where are you getting the fact that not being bread for massacre and eaten equals being hunted or fighting for survival? Also why is my analogy comparing alien enslavement of us for food to that of us and farm animals fundamentally illogical? How or in what ways are human emotions more complex than that of other species? What reason? To sum up above; Warden what are your examples and evidence? Because your testimony is only just that an individual's statement without facts or prove. Edited by Torabisu, Dec 8 2013, 01:47 PM.
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| ViperKang | Dec 8 2013, 02:03 PM Post #48 |
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Once again. NO ONE is saying animals can't think or reason. No one. They can. It's why they can learn. But I love how naive you were about that dog counting video. The dog was shown a number. Put it's paw on it's owners hand twice and received a treat and a good girl. The dog did not count. It did a trick taught to by it's owner. The owner is showing the dog has been able to recognize a number but the owner didn't show you the HOURS of training it took to recognize that number. And that's the major difference. When I LEARNED math it wasn't done over HOURS and with candy. My teaching taught me the names of numbers and then launched into teaching me to solve them. Find me a dog that KNOWS that 4-2 is 2 without needing a treat or praise and MAYBE you have an argument. I think what this boils down to is that you are passionate for animal rights. Which is fine. But I think you're taking the idea of wanting animals to be more than tools for humanity a bit too far. You're putting them on a pedestal even NATURE hasn't put them on. MANY animals have been around far longer than humanity. If animals were even remotely capable of being on our level they would have done so. It's simple logic. Why if they could do all these things you say they could do have they not done them? Why is humanity the one domesticating them and using them for our needs. I don't see an animal posting on a thread about how Torabisu needs to be treated as an equal. So please. By all means fight for humane treatment of animals. It's a good cause. But you will NEVER see animals on the same level as humanity unless humanity CHOOSES to make them on our level. And it's the fact that WE would have to induce their mental ascension that should show you just how intelligent animals are. Can they plan? Yes. Can they problem solve? Yes. Are they capable of caring? Yes. Are they anywhere near the intelligence and capability of mankind? Not even close. Edited by ViperKang, Dec 8 2013, 02:04 PM.
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| Warden of Wisdom | Dec 8 2013, 02:20 PM Post #49 |
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The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. -Carl Sagan
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Look, I'm all for the fair treatment of animals. I'd vehemently defend the laws against animal abuse. But setting animals free from farms on grounds of slavery is incredibly silly. Their lives as pets and farm animals is 100x better than life in the wild. |
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| Torabisu | Dec 8 2013, 05:46 PM Post #50 |
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"Is an animal capable of learning? Of course. That's rather obvious as you can teach an animal tricks and you can teach them to respond to certain words. Are they able to reason? Now that's something different. Problem solving is one thing. Many species are capable of solving a problem put in front of them. Can they do math? Can they write an essay? Can they debate philosophy? No." - ViperKang From the bold-ed text above I implored that ViperKang meant animals are unable to reason. But now he states they can. OK. "The dog did not count. It did a trick taught to by it's owner." How is what the dog done not counting? "The owner is showing the dog has been able to recognize a number but the owner didn't show you the HOURS of training it took to recognize that number. And that's the major difference. When I LEARNED math it wasn't done over HOURS and with candy." My point is that animals are capable or doing math which you (ViperKang) stated above that they are unable to do. Also do you have on record the amount of time it took you to learn addition or wither or not their was an drive? Because to my understanding a person does not simply memorize or do something out of thin air unless theirs some sort of gain that may be by food, mating, sleep, positive reinforcement, and increasing one's surviving odds or stander of living. Yes the dog was motivated by treats but I ensure anyone that humans are the same in that motivation is required. Motivation " Find me a dog that KNOWS that 4-2 is 2 without needing a treat or praise and MAYBE you have an argument." Find me a person who can do so as well. " I think what this boils down to is that you are passionate for animal rights." I do this simply because it is enjoyable and I'm passionate about learning. " You're putting them on a pedestal even NATURE hasn't put them on. MANY animals have been around far longer than humanity." Something you should note it that humans and animals are related. Truth is that all forms of life on earth are related. Yes humans were the first of this era to create 'human level' machines and logical reasoning. But if humans were to never existed simply a different species would fill our niche. It is simply natural selection. Natural selection " Why if they could do all these things you say they could do have they not done them? " Because humans were the first and so humans are limiting other species in the competition of survival that of which leads to them all ding out before they are able to evolve. Extinction: a natural versus human - caused process Evolution of human intelligence " Why is humanity the one domesticating them and using them for our needs.(?)" We are simply the first to do so. " But you will NEVER see animals on the same level as humanity unless humanity CHOOSES to make them on our level." I thought your point was that animals will never be he same level as humanity. So humans have the power to do so. " And it's the fact that WE would have to induce their mental ascension that should show you just how intelligent animals are." If one as young as an infant and over the span of their life was left onto an island and they were able to survive on there own without any interaction with other animals or humans would that individual develop language, learn mathematics, and use logical thought all out of the blue. Truth is simply we do not know and I personalty say no to be the likely case and in that to be true than both human and animals require motivation and opportunity to acquire knowledge. But to test such a thing would be unethical; hence, is why we must attempt to research in ways that do not cause harm but instead provides peace and understanding of the world. The research I suggest is does threw breeding can animals understand more 'complex' ideals and concepts; what methods are best used in teaching a new behavior; Do animals think differently than humans and if so in what ways. The possibility and uses of this research are endless for maybe owners are able to teach their associate and companion to know when to cross the street so that to not get hurt or killed; dolphins having the capability's to assist and adding those stranded at see; also threw studying them we may understand our-self's even more. Genie " Look, I'm all for the fair treatment of animals. I'd vehemently defend the laws against animal abuse. But setting animals free from farms on grounds of slavery is incredibly silly. Their lives as pets and farm animals is 100x better than life in the wild." - Warden of Wisdom I do not know where your (Warden) getting the ideal of letting them out into the wild is better are my words for if society done so than their numbers would diminished into excitation hypothetically speaking. My proposal is that threw research we can gain a grander understanding of our-self's and that down the line of time be able to teach our animal companions new behaviors to assist them in living in the world more effectively meanwhile for the farm animal problem I suggest that as an society to steadily transfer from a meet diet to an vegetarian one for it would feed more individuals overall and produce less suffering. What we do with the farm animals eventually is to enforce high quality of living by providing healthy environments, proper nation, and an enjoyable iteration with others. Food Energy Pyramids Again I repeat: Where in my current words do I state that all animals should be let loose into the wild on grounds of slavery for if I made a mistake or unclear in my writing I wish that it to be addressed so that it may be elaborated. Also:
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1:50 PM Jul 11