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Brave; New Pixar movie
Topic Started: Nov 24 2011, 12:25 AM (2,613 Views)
Oneill5491
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Fjord Mustang
Jun 19 2012, 09:53 AM
@O'Neill- I'm scared the movie won't be good,too, but I still have hope in it for now. I'm trying to ignore the reviews and focus on my own perceptions when I see it. To me, there's nothing wrong with magic since this is a fairy tale film based on Celtic fairy tales, and these do have a lot of elements of spells, prophecies, shape shifting and misleading curses.
Yeah, problem with that is the only way you can form "your own perception" without influence by critical reviews is to analyze what marketing material Pixar feeds you.

I find that RT ratings for movies highly correlate with my own options of the film. I know others may not find that to be true for them, but it's really helped me to keep my money in my wallet when I should and helped me avoid regret by missing a movie that I shouldn't have.

Yeah, I have no problem with magical elements being introduced into animated films such as this one, but I have always wanted to see how well Pixar can write a movie that's as organic as HTTYD was. It seems they base their foundation on producing movies around talking animals or inanimate objects and/or supernatural and magical elements. Granted, that's the great thing about animation; you're able to really leverage the power of doing such things that just doesn't work as well in adult live action films.

But still...

One day, Pixar...one day.
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Erazer
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Well, if its merely the absence of magical and supernatural elements, then "Wall-E" comes pretty close to being an "organic" movie, doesn't it? Sure, the protagonists are robots, which you wouldn't associate with "organic", but they're only hardly able to talk. Taking place 800 years in the future, it makes sense that they can move on their own, but can't talk. This is the difference: While in "Toy Story", they just magically do, we have an explanation for their (limited) capacity of speech. Also, almost the entire first half of this movie is all told without words! Now that's very unusual and takes courage to do in a family movie. It's what I really miss in Pixar movies lately. It was there in the beginning of "Up" of course, but as the talking dogs appeared, I was pretty disappointed, and I conclude that you weren't very fond of them too. There was an explanation of course, but this doesn't change how out of place they were, which is why I wouldn't call it an an organic movie (even though there are no magical elements).

I guess it depends how you define an "organic" movie yourself, I'd understand if you wouldn't count Wall-E as one. But I too would love to see a PIXAR movie someday that's free of any of these elements. Let's just see what they'll offer us in the future...

I'm still looking forward to Brave though. The presence of magical elements could have been avoided for sure, but if it makes for a great story, I don't see the problem with it.
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Night Fury
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Fjord Mustang
Jun 19 2012, 03:36 PM
I actually go to most movies by myself, so I know how awkward it can be sometimes. I'm a middle aged woman, so I seem very out of place when I go to a Marvel comics action movie, a sci fi movie or an animated film.



Same here actually. It goes against my nature since I don't like to draw much attention to myself, but it's better than not seeing all the films I want to see.

Occasionally, a friend will accompany me to a Dreamworks film since they tend to deal with more grown up themes. Pixar films have a reputation with people I know for being more childish -- the opposite of what the internet seems to think.


Oneill, that's an interesting point. I never thought about that, how Pixar films always seems to have a magical element, or talking animals. I think, Pixar being owned by Disney, that it may be due to the legacy of Disney films which made those attributes ubiquitous in animation. Dreamworks also does some talking animals but they tend to have a more realistic approach to their films.

Pixar and Dreamworks each seem to have a different "DNA" and philosophy; sort of like Apple and Microsoft (not to suggest that one or the other is synonymous with either of those companies, though Pixar has ties to Apple).

I agree that Wall-E did came pretty close to organic, insofar as realism is concerned, but it still has that aesthetic that is unmistakably Pixar.

It actually kind of annoys me when people say that HTTYD is "Pixar quality", though I may be guilty myself of saying that in the past. I don't think Pixar could create a film like HTTYD, unless they were to change their approach to filmmaking. The studios are simply different, no worse or better than each other -- and that's probably a good thing.

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Erazer
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Night Fury
Another interesting review is up! By Jeremy Jahns, popular reviewer on Youtube. Except for a few films like "Drive", I agree on his opinion most of the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzWoeQ-GWAU&feature=g-u-u

This really worries me now though. It seems this movie is going the same direction that "UP" did. He's basically saying that the first half of the movie is awesome and epic, and then all of a sudden, it turns into a kids movie. And man, did I hate that in UP. Doesn't it work a lot better if you do it the other way round? Another example is Kung Fu Panda: We get this intense, awesome fight scene between Shifu and Tai Lung, but close on a silly, slapsticky fight betwen Tai Lung and Po. It makes sense, but it always bugs me when I see the movie. In HTTYD, the atmosphere in the middle of the film is pretty light and pleasant, but it goes a way darker path closer to the end. It's a very effective way to create drama.

I have no idea what to think of it right now. I guess I'll go watch the movie anyway and see for myself. At least the animation is definitely spectacular, so there's that.


If you're interested, here's his (very positive) review of HTTYD in his earlier days:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-Xrn05iHfk&feature=plcp
Edited by Erazer, Jun 21 2012, 11:37 AM.
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Walter Roehrich
Terrible Terror
Two other interviews with Patrick Doyle are now online.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w3s5A-saOk
Patrick Doyle speaks about his beginnings in the film industry and how he got involved in scoring "Brave".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRL9YRX4QcE
Another interview where Patrick Doyle speaks about "Brave" and his score.


Did anybody of you already see the movie? According to the reviews I have seen so far the movie is enjoyable, but it doesn't seem to live up to previous Pixar movies.

That's just weak songwriting. You wrote a bad song, Petey.
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ZeroAuthor
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Terrible Terror
I think the audio and video review on the spill.com got to the real point of why the movie was not as good as it could've been.

http://my.spill.com/profiles/blogs/brave-audio-review

http://www.spill.com/Movie-Reviews/MovieReview.aspx?Name=Brave&VideoId=448230

As for my review, since I saw it the first day it came out, I'd give it a 7/10. I loved the main character how she had strong opinions and just fought to have her voice heard, but at the same time, I think the lesson she learned wasn't as big a lesson as it could've been.

I think what this movie suffers from the most is that it doesn't know what kind of movie it wants to be. It's trying to be a mother/daughter story, and story about Scottish lore and magic, a Disney Princeess story, and story with a moral and consequences, and girl power story, and a comedic story. In the end, a lot of these plots suffered because they couldn't balance all of that in one film.

I think this was the exact problem that Chris and Dean had when they signed onto HTTYD, that they wanted magic and lore and dragons and father/son stuff all in one movie and ultimately that had to cut out the magic stuff so that the other plots wouldn't suffer. A smart move on their part, because although the magic would've made HTTYD a little more original in the cliched story parts, it would've become...well, like Brave.

Brave would've been just fine if they had focused more on the mother/daughter story and Merida's choice to not get married. But the edition to the magic and the odd story about the ancient kingdom seemed oddly placed and just came in and out of the story with no real purpose outside five seconds of realization.

And, as for the main complaint that the movie was excellent in the beginning and weak in the middle-end. I agree. The beginning was probably the most powerful of the whole film. Emotional, well written, everything you'd expect from a Pixar movie. But then in the middle it seemed to revolve around--how much can we make you laugh at people running around the castle, bumping into stuff, and showing their butts? The movie half way redeemed itself with the ending battle in the last....10 minutes, but the other lost 45 minutes of slapstick comedy and rushed realizations was just kind of a bummer.

On the other hand, the comedy that did work was anything that had to do with the King. He was hilarious (and a pervert). And I'm so glad--like HTTYD--they didn't have talking animals!

And, lastly, I'm glad that Merida stayed single. I would've pulled out my hair if she had ended up having some flimsy romance.

So, yeah. I'd give it a 7/10. The animation/scenery is excellent (though, I'm not gonna lie I was more captivated by the scenery in HTTYD than Brave). The Characters are a little standard but they still work. But the story...needed some work, mostly in the cutting out what doesn't matter and focusing more on what does.
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Go ahead...Click on it. You know you want to XDDD
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Deleted User
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What a great action movie, i really enjoyed with my friends...
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Erazer
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Thanks alot for this review. It's pretty useful hearing a more personal opinion.

Quote:
 
I think what this movie suffers from the most is that it doesn't know what kind of movie it wants to be. It's trying to be a mother/daughter story, and story about Scottish lore and magic, a Disney Princeess story, and story with a moral and consequences, and girl power story, and a comedic story. In the end, a lot of these plots suffered because they couldn't balance all of that in one film.

Well, this happens when Pixar tries too hard to be geared towards all audiences. Seeing the imbalance of adult and kid-friendly elements in recent movies like "Up" (which is still very good), "Cars 2", "Wall-E" (at a far lesser extent, but still) and apparently this is really disappointing, considering it's them who mastered it. It's what makes the Toy Story Trilogy the best movies of the studio for me, and it's a strong aspect of Monsters Inc. and Ratatouille too. These movies don't try to entertain adults and kids at the same time, they just naturally do. This is very rare with family movies, because most of them try to achieve that through popcultural references and comic relief characters. This can work, but most of the time, these turn out as kids movies with adult elements or adult movies with kid-friendly elements.

I really hope Pixar will someday have the guts to do a dark movie and stay with it, or just go with a more kid-friendly setting in the first place. Having silly humour in a movie like "Monsters Inc" makes sense, but I can imagine that it won't work as well in Brave. I think I'll go see the movie anyway, but I guess I won't set my expectations too high.

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Fjord Mustang
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I Don't Really Look Like This. Usually.

Those are good points about Pixar, Erazer and about the story's connections, Black Rose. The movie was interrupted and replaced with directors, and I think that may have been the reason for the slapstick laden middle part. I tend to think the original story would have been more serious and dark, given the original director worked on Prince of Egypt which had some extremely dark, solemn moments of beauty and horror. The original director also based Merida and Elinor on her own mother-daughter experiences, so it might have been more of what BlackRose was explaining would have been a better focus.

I would say that the Japanese trailer came closest to being what the movie's tone is. Actually, I find even if most viewers might compare this film to Dreamworks or other Pixar movies, I think it is fairest to compare it in story and tone to Miyazaki's films. There is a lot of Miyazaki influence in the willow whisps, the living forest, the eccentric witch with eccentric habits, the intelligent animals and a confident young heroine learning something about herself. Plus, more Miyazaki influences in there not being any villains other than Mor Dubh, a girl's relationship to her father, love of family bonds, and a focus on victory through understanding and compromise over epic battle victory. Go in with that mindset, and I think the movie might resonate well if you like Miyazaki.

I've seen it twice now. I did feel more emotionally invested in HTTYD, but I still liked Brave very much. This was the kind of girl adventure movie I wish I had seen when I was growing up (there, girls in animation were almost always princesses dreaming of their wedding day and incompetant damsels in distress, and moms were either dead or evil stepmothers). I have to say I loved the mother daughter relationship and how both characters had their reasons but also their inabilities to understand each other. Neither was bad. It was also interesting how their resolution of the curse and healing their relationship also led to breaking the curse of Mor Dubh as well. The two curses were interconnected across time. That message was strong in there, but the comedy sequences really watered down and distracted from the connection of the curses.

Some of the comic tribal brawling I could understand since it was based on the reality that 10th century Scottish highlanders were a very wild and freedom-loving and quite bawdy folk. And they loved insulting each other rather crudely. And they were often spoiling for a fight, even if it was all in fun. It was more the triplet's constant pranks and the annoying screaming handmaiden that annoyed me- those things got really grating after a while. They also went too far with the bear-Elinor's clumsiness in the castle. It was understandable at first, that she was trying to get used to being trapped in a bear's body, but then it lasted so long it started to seem slapstick, which I don't think was the intention.

I loved the way Fergus and Elinor were a team of rulers-- she and he both worked effectively together as rulers complementing each other's strengths, something nice to see-- quite different from a Disney princess movie. And Elinor was very strong and determined, so even if she was ladylike, she spoke her mind and wasn't afraid to stand up to the stronger guys to stop them brawling. It was great to see, after she became a bear, how she came to see that Merida's outdoor and archery skills were something to appeciate and value and Merida came to value her mother's ability to use her intelligence and strategic mind to solve problems. And both of them made great diplomats when they worked as a team to try to get the tribes to stop their impending warfare.

Other things I really liked:

-- the natural scenery and the people. This is the Scotland I know and love, so beautifully created. They caught the savage beauty and wildness of the highlands and mountains, but also the artistic complexity and fierce, wild and, yes, the uncouth and primitive spirit of the ancient and medevial highland Scots. They could be uncouth and not the folk you'd invite to your modern day dinner soiree, but they were also incredibly creative and talented and democratic. And I so loved-- and want-- that Pictish St. Ninian's Isle replica of the wolf-headed battle horn on the pole. So, so, cool they used that artifact in the movie! (and so Sarmatian).

-- The animals- the wolfhounds were beautiful. Angus the Clydesdale stallion is the most beautifully and naturalistic rendered horse I have ever seen in animation. He is not a cartoon horse. He looks and acts like a real horse. The bears are terrifying and powerful rather than cute and cuddly. I especially liked how Elinor-bear's eyes would change based on whether Elinor's human nature or the bear's animal nature was ascendent. The bear either had Elinor's soft brown eyes or a bear's large, black fierce eyes-- very effective. And the pure bear was beautifully like a real bear.

-- Nonverbal language- This was very Toothless like. Elinor-as-a-bear communicates without words, just gestures and emotions. The triplets also do not speak, so all their dialogue is sign language. This really shows how powerful animation can be as a medium for nonverbal exchange. Also, the preceding short La Luna is entirely done without words-- just nonsense sounds, yet the animation expressions and gestures communicate the meaning.

-- the witch's cabin- just madness in a good way. This was so Miyazaki. I can't describe it. You have to see it to appreciate the creative and eccentric touches. There was even a part-- I caught it on the second viewing-- where the witch is speaking Gaelic in one of the "cauldron" messages.

-- The music-- awesome, as others have commented. I hope Doyle gets nominated for this soundtrack. It really fit. The mother-daughter duet, "Noble Maiden Fair" (sung only in Gaelic) is the major theme in the movie, and the parts where it is played with Elinor and little-girl Merida singing in Gaelic are really powerful and touching.

-- The message. So many animated movies lately show the teenage hero defying tradition and then saving his people from danger and then showing his way was the right one, changing his people for the better. It's a great theme, but I liked that this movie took a different approach. Instead the heroine came to understand why the tradition of uniting the tribes was so important for the future of her people and her role in that process. She instead came to appreciate the family and tribal traditions but also, by her actions, encouraged the older generations to understand her arguments and agree that some changes could be made to accommodate the younger generation while still keeping the family and tribal essential bonds. That is a pretty powerful and rare message, even though it might come across as underwhelming compared to most epic battles in animation. I blame marketing before the movie for misleading people to expect something more epic. It's a shame, because this message was wonderfully powerful. Another great message was the power of women to be strong, regardless of whether they are archer warriors or manage the diplomatic relations and a household. Both women came to appreciate each other's viewpoint. I know I am a forty something viewer, so my age probably has me relate to this message differently from viewers of other age groups. I think most were disappointed by the message, but I loved it.

Finally, I encourage guys to see this film. It is not at all a girly princess film. It's a very gritty movie, and the obstacles the heroine faces might be the same a young hero would face if he felt constrained by duty and tried to change his fate with a spell. There is a sense of danger that Merida faces through the film. It's a movie of adventure and danger and family love, not a romantic love story. And there are some amazingly dark, dark images. The final Mor Dubh confrontation is amazing, especially considering the character least likely to be the greatest warrior is the one who has the most chance of defeating Mor Dubh.

So, I'd encourage people to see it, but not in 3D-- the scenery is too dark for 3D to be effective. But so many of the visuals deserve to be seen in the theatre. The scenes of Merida galloping on horseback are just thrilling-- I know it's not flying on a dragon, but riding a powerful horse at a gallop comes pretty darn close.

And I wish they had kept the movie's name The Bear and the Bow . That would have really been more in the spirit of the movie.

P.S.-- I loved the subtle hints in the movie that the four tribes united as one alliance in order to defeat Vikings. There are references to Northern invaders and Vikings. Craig Ferguson (Gobber in HTTYD) seems to be playing Lord MacIntosh, representative of a tribe of horse warriors who seem to be modeled after the Picts of very ancient Scotland.

And I look forward to hear Anhedral's view of the film. Being from Scotland, he might have some great insights of his film impressions of Scottish highland culture! And his impressions of the intelligent (human-brained) bears before the curse would remove their human mind and make them bears in reality if the curse was not changed.
Edited by Fjord Mustang, Jun 27 2012, 09:50 PM.
"And now each night, I count the stars.
And each night I get the same number.
And when the stars won't come to be counted,
I count the holes they leave."
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Night Fury
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I finally went to see Brave after my mom expressed interest in seeing it. I knew it was a bit of a gamble because my mom has a spotty track record with animated films. She despised Up, for example, but she thought Ice Age 3 was funny, and she really liked The Fantastic Mr. Fox -- so clearly her tastes lean toward the edgier, more adult end of the spectrum.

Thankfully, she seemed to enjoy Brave. Her only sort-of criticism was that "it was kind of cute... a bit too Disney".

The cuteness didn't bother me, but I do wish it had been a bit more sweeping in the story department. It felt rather small compared to HTTYD. The 3D was even darker than HTTYD, which was pretty dark itself. Overall, the film seemed dark, not just visually, but I think it may also have the darkest tone of any Pixar film.

I really enjoyed Eleanor as a bear, and I see what you mean, Fjord, about the Toothless-like moments. In fact, I think that was the highlight of the film for me, although the music was pretty good, too.

I have read some ridiculous criticism of this film. Some audience reviews have suggested it's the same story as Brother Bear, which is mostly false -- they have almost nothing in common, aside from both having a character transform into a bear. The motive for the transformation is completely different in each movie.

Other reviewers saw a feminist agenda because the male characters were portrayed as bumbling idiots. Okay... I just figured they weren't skilled at archery, and they were pretty much being forced to do something they were unskilled at. They were only courting Merida in the first place because it was dictated by tradition. If you're looking for an agenda, you're going to find it whether or not it's actually there.

Many reviews suggested it was too safe and traditional for Pixar. I didn't really get that impression, myself, but I do feel that Pixar has been off their game for a while now, so it may have been a case of misplaced expectations on the part of some fans. The last Pixar film I really enjoyed was Wall-E, so for me Brave was actually kind of refreshing. Apart from being their only film with a female heroine, it's their only film aside from The Incredibles and Wall-E that doesn't have talking animals/toys/cars, or whatever else is not supposed to talk. That doesn't exactly scream conventional, if you ask me.

I was disappointed by Up as soon as the talking dogs appeared, was basically neutral to Toy Story 3, and had no interest at all in Cars 2.

If Pixar isn't going to return to their glory days of The Incredibles, Rat, and Wall-E, then I'd be happy to see them make more films like Brave.


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