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| Healthcare mandate passed | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 29 2012, 12:06 PM (2,737 Views) | |
| Eyes Wide Open | Jul 16 2012, 08:51 PM Post #21 |
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Gronckle
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All countries that have nationalized their health care; Canada, Great Britain, Japan and others have had people come here in order to have medical procedures. I believe the most recent example was Danny Williams, Canadian PM for Newfoundland and Labrador who decided to have heart surgery in the US and bypass the waiting lists in his own country. As far as 'taking care' of doctors, socialized medicine makes all participants in the system 'equal'. This brings me back to my article that I mentioned above where 83% of doctors would consider quitting rather than work under Obamacare. The reason is for what you state CT; that those doctors would only be paid a stipend for their efforts, no matter how good they are. They could be the best in their field but would be paid the same amount as the arrogant, uncaring person with two left thumbs! |
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| Azdgari | Jul 16 2012, 09:48 PM Post #22 |
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Founder + Goofball
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Are we really more worried about taking care of doctors, who are in the highest paid professionals in the country even including their larger school bills, over the millions of uninsured Americans? I'm pretty sure doctors are going to be fine, regardless of what we do. And where do impoverished people fit into the fully privatized medicine? Not much money to be made from them. This is exactly what I mean--I feel like we're thinking about it like a business, about how much money doctors will make, rather than the people whose lives are depending on this. Money is not as important as lives. We don't privatize police or fire fighting. I don't think healthcare should be private. I don't think it's ethical. |
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I get all the news I need on the weather report Hey, I've got nothing to do today but smile Here I am, the only living boy in New York | |
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| Night Fury | Jul 16 2012, 10:02 PM Post #23 |
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I'm surprised he didn't go overseas instead like a lot of Americans are doing because US healthcare is so expensive. There will always be faster, better, or cheaper care available somewhere in the world. |
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| Eyes Wide Open | Jul 17 2012, 09:04 AM Post #24 |
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Gronckle
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AZ, I find it interesting that you say that doctors do just fine. Yes, doctors as a whole are the most highly compensated as based on a new survey. But when was the last time you saw a doctor in any Forbes list of the wealthiest individuals. They make and earn that money because they want the risk and in some instances prestige and pride of knowing that they can help others. It is a risk because in today's litigation happy society they must be right and mistake free 100 percent of the time. I would want that in my doctor too if I intend in placing my life in his or her hands. Doctors are then required to pay inordinately high insurance rates to cover those instances when things don't go quite right. That is part of the problem that we have with the lack of obstetricians. Any birth defect, any slight mark or inconsistency will mean that the doctor has to pay, even if it can be proven that the doctor was not at fault. Why, because it is easier for the insurance companies to pay off the claimant rather than go through litigation. Again as I mentioned before, we have as a model the cell phone industry that provides people with options of what they want in coverage. They also can get free cell phones that you and I already pay for as well. |
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| Backroads | Jul 17 2012, 09:55 AM Post #25 |
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Proclaimer of Book Wisdom
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So, AZ, why does every other professional in the world get to arrange with their customers to make a mutually beneficial deal, but you believe doctors should be exempt from it? As for the truly impoverished, I sincerely believe in charity--which socialized medicine is against. There are plenty of people out there willing to help those in need, doctors included. I come from the perspective that no one is entitled to healthcare or anything else, for that matter--just the right to attempt to take care of themselves. What is good and morally right is when we as people help each other--which socialized healthcare bypasses. I admit it would be very efficient, but again, why are doctors told it is wrong to take care of their families and themselves? |
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| Backroads | Jul 17 2012, 09:57 AM Post #26 |
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Proclaimer of Book Wisdom
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There sure will. What's wrong with picking and choosing what works for you? |
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| Backroads | Jul 17 2012, 10:00 AM Post #27 |
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Proclaimer of Book Wisdom
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It's not that we're more worried about doctors than anyone else. I just don't think it's ethical to deny anyone the right of personal freedom. You are also discounting basic human goodness, in that there will be people out there willing help those in need. There ARE doctors that will work for free, there are charities. |
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| Azdgari | Jul 17 2012, 10:58 AM Post #28 |
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Founder + Goofball
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Medicaid isn't for funsies, it was made in response to the fact that impoverished americans (15%) needed access to healthcare. It's not like a doctor can say "I'll treat you for free" and have that be the end of it. Where does a hospital that needs to give out a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of surgery and ER time for a poor, sick patient get that money? I love all the idealism but it needs some pragmatism: goodwill does not come bundled with huge amounts of money to carry out that goodwill. Healthcare is expensive. Where does the money to do it pro-bono come from? Isn't that why we have medicaid?
Firemen and policemen don't. How can a patient bargain? When you're sick, you get treated or you don't. I hear the words "options in coverage" and I don't understand what people mean. So, option A says "we'll cover you until you're X sick, then you're on your own." option B says "We'll cover you 'till you're Y sick, then good luck"? It seems akin to saying you'll buy police protection against thieves but not against murderers, or fire protection from monday to friday. Enlighten me. ;3
O.o You sure bout 'dat? What about our constitution that states that everyone is entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Or basic human rights, which include health care, among other things such as food and water and shelter? |
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| Delanie | Jul 17 2012, 11:19 AM Post #29 |
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Night Fury
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I also don't know if it's right to make people's health a mere product, but I also don't think it's right to take people's trade away from them. As for police and firemen, as far as I'm aware, they've never existed privately (oh, someone might hire a force and call them police, but that's about it). For eons, doctors have been a private thing. How do we go about switching to a system where doctors spends tens of thousands of dollars getting trained only to be told what they can and can't do? With a stipend that will probably never pay back their student loans? How do we encourage the people we trust our lives to do a good job when we consider them beneath us, someone who is forced to take care of us when we can't even have the decency to help them out? You suggest doctors are immoral, yet expect them to take care of everyone. I don't understand how that works. Why are you against businesses? And what's wrong with making money? Are you advocating that everyone live in poverty? Are you saying it's wrong to want to make a good life for you family? Businesses exist because people discovered a talent or commodity they were able to provide and decided to trade that for other goods and services. Aka, money. If only a few people benefit when we take away businesses, as you are suggesting, what's the point? We will have a whole bunch people who can't learn skills because learning skills is "evil" and "selfish" and therefore starve to death. Goodbye humanity. I have to ask, when Medicaid and Medicare were established, was it for people that didn't bother asking charities? Don't get me wrong, I think those serve their purpose, but I've also seen too many times when they are abused. I've seen people refuse to take care of themselves because welfare is "easier". For what's it's worth, I think it's highly doubtful that 100% of doctors in a given area will refuse to treat a patient who can't pay with a life-threatening situation. Here's the deal: Medicine is a complicated field. You just don't go to classes for a couple of years and learn how to do it. It's take time to train these people, and I don't know many people who are willing to pay out the nose and spend little time with friends and families for nealry ten years in order to make a pittance. Why should they bother if they will get nothing in return? Azd, you really seem to be against the idea of human goodness, and I don't understand why. Have you just not seen enough good people who are willing to help each other? It's like you want equality, but don't care if no one actually cares about anyone else. I feel strongly that people should take care of each other, not the government. I don't see why people should risk the ability to take care of themselves by being forced to buy insurance they don't need because they already have a way of taking care of themselves. I don't see why people should become slaves to one another just because another person demands it. To me, this is the very root of evil. |
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| Delanie | Jul 17 2012, 11:21 AM Post #30 |
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Night Fury
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I know you're talking to Backroads, but can you show me where in the constitution it says anyone is guaranteed basic human rights as you have described them? They are entitled to the right to live, the right to do things to their own conscious, and the right to try to get what they need. It never says a darn thing about healthcare.
Edited by Delanie, Jul 17 2012, 11:21 AM.
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4:45 AM Jul 11