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| Healthcare mandate passed | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 29 2012, 12:06 PM (2,736 Views) | |
| Azdgari | Jul 17 2012, 11:42 AM Post #31 |
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Founder + Goofball
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Yes, Delanie, I hate human goodness, that's why I played a benefit show last night for the orphanage in Honduras I spent two weeks working in last summer, and why I'm organizing a relay for life at my school this fall, and I volunteer playing music for patients at the hospital that saved my life. I also want poverty and I want all business and capitalism to become extinct and to have everyone in the world die. ![]() I don't have a response to your post because you've put so many words in my mouth I can't fit any of my own. I never said doctors are immoral, I never suggested I hate business, I never said doctors are beneath us, I never said it's wrong to want to make a good life for one's family, I never said people should become slaves to each other. Nor did I, I think, insinuate that I'm ignorant of the fact that med students need to go to med school. So, just let me understand this first before I move on to other things: people don't believe that other people have a right to a healthy life? Because if that's true, then I don't have any place in this topic. Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 25. United nations of the world, including America, seem to think so. |
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| Backroads | Jul 17 2012, 11:58 AM Post #32 |
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Proclaimer of Book Wisdom
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First off, I think everyone, including myself, needs to take a deep breath. Delanie, putting words in mouths are not okay. We all have different perspectives and we may not all agree with each other's values of morality, but let's agree to disagree. Civilly. ARTICLE 25
The only trouble with this is who provides this to the people. These people have the right to get these things, but it never says I have to provide this for another person if I'm unwilling to for any reason. In response to your basic human rights question, I believe people have the right to find access to these standards, but this article does outline how these rights are accessed. There is nothing here that says outright the government must provide these services. Rather, I read this as no one can stop a person from achieving these no matter the form of government.
I guess I want more explanation of what you mean? I have no right to walk up to someone selling food and demand they give me food. I have no right to sit in my house and demand someone bring me water. I also have no right to demand that someone put my well-being before theirs. I hope I'm not making the mistake of putting words in your mouth, I'm just asking for clarification. When the constitution grants the "pursuit of happiness" it does not mean "happiness" --just the ability to pursue it. And if I'm not mistaken, it was originally meant to say "pursuit of wealth" (Tracy, you have the history degree, correct or vindicate me). We have the right to get these things, but do we have the right to demand anyone provide them? EDIT: I suppose we have the right to demand whatever we want, but that doesn't mean anyone has to actually comply. Which is where we can run into trouble. I personally believe that first and foremost people need to take care of themselves because you can't help another person if you can't take care of yourself. I do agree with Delanie that it's implausible you won't find any doctor to help you out no matter your situation. As for bargaining, yes, patients can bargain. Patient can say "I need such and such treatment and can provide such and such in return" (note: pure money is relatively new in business exchanges) and Doctor can say "I can provide such and such treatment and require such and such in order to give it" because Doctor needs "such and such" to survive. It's not unthinkable they can meet in the middle, and it's not unthinkable Doctor will be willing to have Patient recompensate him later. It's not also unthinkable for Patient to say "I can't provide such and such, but I have friends/family/community who are willing to help me out". I also think the Medis serve their purpose and I am grateful for them. I think of them as systems where the money I pay into them works as a form of insurance. And yes, it does make me feel good that someone in need can use them. But it also makes me feel bad that my co-worker's daughter purposely avoids work in order to use them. However, I am also quite bothered that I am forced to pay into them. I think they should exist as an option. Heck, I'd like the Healthcare Mandate more if it was a choice option. Like Tracy said, there is a spectrum here. No one with a conscience wants another person to suffer, but lots of people also don't want to give up their rights to manage their own lives and property. Pure personal freedom for everyone on one end, total security and equality in all things for everyone on the other. We're all on different spots of the spectrum, me thinks. Edited by Backroads, Jul 17 2012, 12:13 PM.
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| Azdgari | Jul 17 2012, 12:26 PM Post #33 |
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Founder + Goofball
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First of all: ![]() Secondly: a lot of a good points. I'll think about them. Let me ask this then, out of curiosity: If you could, through pure charity, provide 90 impoverished people with food and water, OR provide 100 impoverished people with food and water through a mandatory tax, which would you choose? |
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| Backroads | Jul 17 2012, 12:40 PM Post #34 |
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Proclaimer of Book Wisdom
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I would choose the 90 people through charity. This might come from my cozy feel-good perspective, but I may not be helping as many people, but I'm at least helping them out of my own free will based on my own ability and those people are knowing someone cares about their plight. Very good question. I want to see more answers from other people. We should say why so we can see where each other is coming from. |
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| Azdgari | Jul 17 2012, 01:13 PM Post #35 |
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Founder + Goofball
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Cool. I'm just interested in different people's perspectives.
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| CrazyTrace | Jul 17 2012, 02:01 PM Post #36 |
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Night Fury
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I'd pick the 100 people with the mandated tax. While I certainly understand and appreciate the concept of charity, I think your average democratic society would of as a whole agreed to the tax. So I don't see it so much as forcing anyone as people agreeing to pay the tax and it is doing a lot of good. |
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| Night Fury | Jul 17 2012, 04:23 PM Post #37 |
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I would choose to help the 100 people. It's more important to me that the system functions smoothly than whether strangers feel good about helping one another. Health care just one more thing that my tax dollars go toward. There are some things that the government spends my money on that I don't like, but I accept that as the way things are. From the perspective of a patient seeking healthcare, I would just want the care to be available. In fact, I'd rather not think about strangers caring about me. I don't have a problem with charity, but I'd rather it existed to fill the gaps than as a complete solution. I think that some causes receive too much support while others don't get enough; eg, breast cancer is highly visible while other cancers such as colon cancer don't get much attention. I don't think the public can be relied on to spread their "care" around to the people who need it most. |
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| Backroads | Jul 17 2012, 04:26 PM Post #38 |
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Proclaimer of Book Wisdom
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And I think social services should exist to feel in the gap created by charity. Interesting perspectives we have. I guess I look at this as more of a community/morality thing than just a pure heartless system. If we don't care about one another, we're missing the point of taking care of each other. I hate the idea of losing the sense of community. |
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| Night Fury | Jul 17 2012, 04:34 PM Post #39 |
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True, it interesting how people see things. I suppose I'm a bit of an outsider and I've never had much faith in the morality or caring of others. I guess it depends on the person and how they were raised, and their life experiences. |
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| Azdgari | Jul 17 2012, 05:42 PM Post #40 |
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Founder + Goofball
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I certainly have faith in the morality of others, but in a certain sense. When it's in your face, I think the vast majority of people would be charitable and make a right choice. Would the majority of people take time to seek out causes that need charity and donate to them? Not so sure. Not a matter of empathy, a matter of apathy. |
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4:45 AM Jul 11