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What does OPSEC mean...really
Topic Started: Apr 4 2011, 09:15 AM (2,219 Views)
Mommacat
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This is going to be rather long and, for that I apologize, but I just have to say this.

In a way, it all boils down to whether you believe people are intrinsically “good” or not. I happen to think that most people are and will do the right thing in ordinary circumstances. But, the key here is “ordinary circumstances”. In desperate situations, the majority of people will do whatever they believe is necessary for themselves to survive. My reason for being so insanely close-mouthed about my prepping is that I want to be the one to decide whom it is that I will share with. I don’t want a group of frightened, hungry people showing up at my doorstep because they heard from somebody, who heard for somebody, that I was a prepper and so I probably had what they needed to stay alive. HF, its great that you would offer to share seeds and a place for people to grow their own food and be self-sufficient. But, that is something that isn’t going to be of any immediate help to the thousands of people that are out roaming the countryside in search of food and shelter. They won’t be interested in next year’s crop of corn and beans – they will need food and supplies this very minute and if word has gotten around that you have those, you’re a sitting duck. Your idea that it will all be shared in harmony and by following a few simple rules is heartwarming and admirable. But, the barrel of a gun is the only rule that will apply if they show up for food and you offer them seeds and a plot to grow them. They won’t politely ASK you to share, they will take what you have and leave you with nothing. Your goal of helping many will be circumvented because a few have taken the tools you planned to use to reach that goal. Believe it or not, I DO have the same long-term goal that you have - for the human race to survive and thrive. My approach is different. I recognize that I cannot save everyone and I expect that things will be chaotic and dangerous. You said that a person with my mindset would put themselves in the position of having to defend their stores – but again, that’s where good security comes into play. If nobody has any reason to come knocking on my door, I will be left alone. I also don’t quite agree with the idea that people will just fall into line and do what you want them to. Telling someone they can stay on your farm and live their lives out in peace and plenty if they will follow your rules is a great idea, but it isn’t going to be long before somebody decides that YOU don’t have a right to make any rules and that you have no right to decide what will happen. It will be like a hostile corporate take-over – only it won’t be done by stock trades, it will be done by simple, more direct means. Finally, I don’t know what your life to this point has been like, but I do know what mine has been. From my own very personal, up close, experience, I fully understand what people are capable of doing. Sure, they may feel bad for a minute that they just took away everything you own, but if they can justify, even marginally, their acts against you, they will walk away feeling okay. And, if they can’t, all they have to do is tell themselves that it was either “you or them”. You won’t be their choice! HF, you have a kind and generous soul and I truly hope that it’s never put to the test. I don’t – I’ve been called many things, arrogant, authoritarian, cynical, cold, calculating…. the list is a long one. But, the point is, I don’t expect people will behave with civility and kindness; that has never been my experience when the situation was dicey. I am not about to trust my life and the lives of my loved ones to the “goodness of human nature” because that is only a myth for the “good times”. Finally, I know there have been miracles where people were fed from manna and again with 3 loaves and 3 fishes, etc. But, I suspect that modern day miracles will be more along the lines of a few survivors that had the foresight to take care of themselves. Think about Noah and you’ll see what I mean.
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Raven
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So well said MC, I guess that my entire point was that no one has the right to make that choice for someone else.
HF, I admire your desire to help the people that don't see it and wish that I felt better about the human race but I don't. I have lived through some crap and seen even more. I no longer believe in human kindness when the fire starts licking at the feet of the masses (ever watch a riot?). I wish that I felt better about people in general.
Edited by Raven, Mar 11 2012, 10:17 AM.
The truth is not for all men, but only for those that seek it. Ayn Rand
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HandFarming
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Good sides of the argument and philosophies.

As for the guy in Colorado's hide out being blabbed all over - there must be many people like that who haven't been a topic of discussion. Thus, like the French revolution system, where 1 person only knows of 5 others and they in turn only know of 5, who also only know 5...and on. And none of them know of each others group or stores and supplies, but they all act for the same purposes. This gives each group access to resources from a larger number of people when needed.

Granted, each group should consist of key players. Security, medical, food production, communications and things like that are key players, but not all people in a group need to know each other but must be able to fill in key players when needed and function as a group when called to do so. However, I agree, there should be no passing on of what other people have as groups only need key items and players.

As for the being on my place, they only need to set up near me to benefit from skills, seeds and knowledge.

I should say, I think we have a very different idea of what situation we are talking about. I actually don't see a large number of people surviving the kind of events I foresee. Simply put, I don't see much of any population making it through the earth changes ahead. After the earth changes it's time to help others survive.

Most people I hear from are thinking of a peak oil event, collapse, gov or economy or something like that. I don't see what is happening as a man-made event, but people have been reacting to it on every level since they know something is up...but don't know what is driving it.
Edited by HandFarming, Mar 11 2012, 01:12 PM.
You can lead an ass to knowledge, but you can not make it think.
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Mommacat
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I kind of waffle between the two scenarios. But, one thing is for sure, if its a catastophic natural disaster, then the socioeconomic collapse will follow very shortly.
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Raven
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For me it is easier to image some man made event...biblical type scarey reminds me of a book I read "The Dreams, Visions and Prophesies of St Don Bosco"...didn't sleep well for a month.
The truth is not for all men, but only for those that seek it. Ayn Rand
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Mommacat
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Yikes!! Remind me never to read it, then!! Seriously, I don't know how or when it will happen, I am just convinced that it will. I am not even certain it will happen in my lifetime. But, having said that, I would hope that what I have begun, my children would continue.
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Raven
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My Great Grandmother told my Dad when he was really little that it wouldn't happen when she or my Grandpa were around and probably not when he was around but for sure when his kids (us) were still around. It appears that she was right so far. It can't go on much longer. They have really stepped up the division of America...the so called rich against the so called poor, the Repubs vs the Dems, the division of colors, religions (or lack thereof) even the division of the gimmes vs the get it yourself types.
The truth is not for all men, but only for those that seek it. Ayn Rand
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HandFarming
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I agree, it could be a not-so-obvious enemy that shows themselves. It could be a neighbor who hit hard times or who knows. That's why it's best to get to know everyone now. And to be prepped on all levels. I'm with MommaCat in I'm not into big defenses but more into booby trapping intruders so they always think they have the upper hand till its time to act. Being calm, focused and even being "helpful" has its rewards.
You can lead an ass to knowledge, but you can not make it think.
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Mommacat
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LOL Why, HF, I think, perhaps you have a bit of a devious streak in you!! Love it!! And, I think you're right - it might be necessary to "play along" until you can take control of a situation, or at least get away from it. I do believe that people should have weapons and be comfortable and proficient in using them, and I realize that there may come a time when having armed lookouts would be necessary and to always carry a firearm would be the "norm". However, I think my personal survivial will depend more on what I know and what I am capable of doing well. Toward that end, I try to learn about unfamiliar things and to learn new things about what I already know. But, I think even without some catostrophic occurance, that's a pretty good way to live! :)
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Raven
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People, this is the perfect time of year to start to plant your perimeter lines in stuff not so friendly. I am going to move a patch of poison ivy to a corner that is hard to watch. If I tend it I am hoping that it will take over a whole area. I am going to plant some of those nasty thorned bushes in there as well. It is on a steep hill that we don't consider to be an easy approach but if I plant these things on there I hope to make it less inviting.
The truth is not for all men, but only for those that seek it. Ayn Rand
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