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| What does OPSEC mean...really | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 4 2011, 09:15 AM (2,222 Views) | |
| Raven | Oct 11 2011, 07:24 PM Post #61 |
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Griz and I have been prepping for over 12 years and we have picked up alot of things that are useful for a group survival a little at a time. What we have picked up we have done with the idea that it could be just us. When we were both working all of the time and had good income, we got some of our more expensive stuff, like the grain grinder (which I use now), a hand crank cream separator and hand tools (although not enough of them). What we need now is people who have other skills that we aren't so good at, and bodies to help defend what we have. I have talked to other preppers and most seem to agree that we all need communication between us. We figured that HAM was the way to go because of the distance you can send/recieve...CB won't get that distance without alot of interference though CB would have advantages after TSHTF I think. We should all think of a way to communicate from our chosen BOLs now before we need it. Practice that by maybe having a bi-monthly "meet up" via our selected coms. What do you think??? |
| The truth is not for all men, but only for those that seek it. Ayn Rand | |
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| Raven | Oct 12 2011, 09:02 AM Post #62 |
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HF, I REALLY like your additions. Especially the ones about the liability issues and the disposable diapers. I will have to amend my rules to reflect that. Thanks for the heads up in that area. I will propose that to our little group. I also like your thoughts on large scale scouting by multiple groups. We have lists of things that we need to get and also of protocols for lighting, water conservation, potential nuclear disaster/fallout, natural disaster etc. Those will be given as part of a handbook to people who are voted in and accept the membership rules. Gotta get ready for work...Good job HF!! |
| The truth is not for all men, but only for those that seek it. Ayn Rand | |
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| HandFarming | Oct 12 2011, 10:05 AM Post #63 |
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Yes, we need to meet up with other groups and discuss options. |
| You can lead an ass to knowledge, but you can not make it think. | |
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| Raven | Oct 14 2011, 11:29 PM Post #64 |
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HF, I forgot to answer your question about money. We do not "charge" per se to belong to our group...BUT we do insist that they add value to our group from the moment that they join. It will cost money to belong but it will not be an upfront fee and we will not do all of the work. The cost will be ongoing for retreat development. I feel, and the rest of my group agrees that people will feel like more of a "community" if they have skin in the game. Yes, we bought the place, and yes, we started to retrofit it to a group needs, HOWEVER, if this gets as bad as some say it might, this place will end up being the HOME for more than just us and we want them to feel a sense of ownership, if not on paper then on pride, sweat and blood. I wouldn't be nearly as likely to put my own lifes blood into a place and wouldn't feel the ownership that I feel is necessary for a long term retreat to work if I felt like I was just a guest worker. That is just my thought and it works for us (so far). The other problem that I see with the kind of money that you are talking is that most people that I know don't have that...some don't have jobs, they have families etc and that kind of dough is hard to come by. Not to mention the thought of a Minnesota winter in a tent. Heated or not the moral of such a living arrangement might be to much to wrap your head around. I know times will be hard and making do will be the currency of the day, but we have told people that they are welcome to come up with their own housing. They can preposition supplies for building, preposition movable trailers (campers have been brought up on more than one occasion and can be found fairly cheaply nowadays). You have to remember that if you need people you need to make it as easy for them to come (bringing skills with them) as you can. The hard part is balancing that with the requirement for them to purchase their own supplies. I have no answers that are cut and dried but only can say what we have discussed amongst ourselves. |
| The truth is not for all men, but only for those that seek it. Ayn Rand | |
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| HandFarming | Oct 15 2011, 03:36 AM Post #65 |
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I can see your point. But the closer we come to needing things ready - the more funds required. I have a list getting longer every day and that does not include the items they must bring or pre-store on their own. You started way before us and have had the benefit of getting help from them. We have not. We have near a $3K payment to make a month. Add taxes and Ins. Since our life is not free here - why would I NOT expect funds in advance? That said, if they have the funds in excess- then they should buy their own place...and set it up quickly! The plans for the funds are to finish much of what is needed to support the number of people expected. Tent living in MN is doable. Our friends camp in Ely in winter to log. Yes, it is not "home", but it can be warm and out of the snow. Otherwise, I would have no place for them and the barn is for animals and hay. And yes- campers are welcome but I can not provide water, heat or sewage unless they pay to install those items. I do expect commitment because expecting us to do it all and then generously open our place to others who don't commit to surviving. I think I wrote in there work can be exchanged for the initial fee for those who do not have funds (no one should be turned down because of lack of money). However, people who can't even find $50/person may not be the kind of people you want to bet your survivability on. I admire your generosity, and your planning for your situation has taken a lot of your time and energy. But my long term thinking is people who have not prepared need to show some serious commitment in time or money at this point or they risk the entire group's survivability. |
| You can lead an ass to knowledge, but you can not make it think. | |
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| Raven | Oct 15 2011, 06:37 AM Post #66 |
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Griz and I have prepped for several years before the Y2K non-event. We prepped in anticipation of that event. We have only been on the lookout and have accepted members from the outside in the past year and a half. Our membership has gone up and down but each of the members that has left has remained in touch and we consider them friends. We sacrificed much to get out place paid off in half the time of the note. We, since then, have continued to sacrifice to get the place as sustainable as possible, funds allowing. Since the point that we accepted others they have helped with both manpower and money as they can. We have plans to be more disciplined about that now as in the past it was hit and miss. We will have a conference call meeting everyother week and will plan projects from that point. We will have to see how that works. |
| The truth is not for all men, but only for those that seek it. Ayn Rand | |
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| HandFarming | Oct 15 2011, 09:33 AM Post #67 |
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My thoughts are that every month that goes by now is a moment heaven spared us to be ready. When I think of peak oil, I saw a report in 2004 on how petrol was going for more non-productive uses than productive. More and more people were jumping on planes than making useful items. With over 245 billion leaving the country every year for gas -how long did they think the economy could take this hemorrhage of money? And why would society not see this trends and determine to use petrol for only things that benefit the country, instead of joy ride around the world. It's like that now, people are wasting real resources of time and money on "joy rides" when they should spend some time to hunker down so future generations HAVE a future. You guys really are an oasis in a dessert of idiots. Hopefully, we will find such good spirited people who also appreciate the spirit of cooperation and hard work. Again, if not, we're screwed. |
| You can lead an ass to knowledge, but you can not make it think. | |
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| HandFarming | Oct 15 2011, 10:14 PM Post #68 |
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Here's a bit of a long rant.... Several years ago, someone asked me if I believe in God. My answer-yes, but not the same way you do. I believe God is the Universe energy that makes everything. You believe god judges people. Well, then she asked me, do you believe in heaven and hell? I asked her what she thought heaven was. She said it's where good people go and it's joyful place. I asked her, if it's a joyful place, all the people you love and family and friends must all be there. She said only if they too were good people. So then I wondered, if the people you love and family and friends are not there, why would be joyful? ...are you still aware of who you are? And how can you be in heaven and so joyful if all those people are not saved? And wouldn't you really be in Hell? And maybe not know it? So, by default, if the people we love, family n friends, are not in heaven, then there can be no heaven. That means every person must either be in heaven (because all the people they love must be in heaven too...and on and on) or it's not heaven if a single person on this earth, who ever lived, it's not heaven. Someone will be missed. So, I think we have different goals as retreats. Ours is open to all people who want it and to get the resources to make that happen is going to take a lot of time and money. At some point in all this, finding survivors and treating them means even more people. Most retreats would hold 50 to 100 people. I can see plans on being able to feed and keep warm 100s if the resources are gathered now. Right now is the time time gather as much money and resources as you can, regardless of cost. Money will be worth nothing one day soon-better to turn it into useful items to make life bearable in the hardest of times. I know I am going to hear it, some people aren't worth saving....but there again, if we don't all do our part (as we know it to be) then in the end, none of us get to a better place! |
| You can lead an ass to knowledge, but you can not make it think. | |
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| Raven | Oct 16 2011, 02:02 AM Post #69 |
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I am not sure how to react to your post but I will make an attempt. If this one persons idea of heaven is what you accept and it works for you fine...I have no right to say otherwise. I believe that heaven is a real place that exists to reward those who have tried to live the way our Creator has asked us to live. My God given reason tells me that not everyone will make it. I further believe that the perfect happiness comes from the fact that we are in the arms of our Creator. The fact that not all of my family and friends are there boils down to the fact that God gave them a choice and by their actions, they chose not to accept God invitation. I would put the blame solely on the person invited, not the host. This belief system makes sense to me so that is what I try to live by. I am, like every other imperfect person, not always successful but I keep trying. Like I said, this make sense to me. If it doesn't make sense to you, that is okay, you have that right. When you said that we have different ideas for a retreat, I disagree. We both want the people that we have with us to survive. We both want the best for these people and we want to make sure that we are preparing for whatever comes. We both want the world that we will one day leave, to be a better place than it once was. We have that in common. One thing that I will take exception to is that your retreat will be open to all people who want it. You invite all people but they have to have 90% of the vote, and they have to follow the rules of the retreat etc. We have the same rules on that account. You have also added the stipulation that if, they come to the realization that the government really isn't capable of saving them, sometime after March of 2012, then you will require a payment of $2,252 for up to 10 people, $10,800 for more than 10 and you will, at that time only take precious metals for payment as we both agree that money will probably not be worth anything. You have the right to do that and I would never in a million years even hint otherwise. But by the same token I would like to point out that you have excluded people that did not get 90% of the vote, have no precious metals, got caught with worthless money, or haven't had a job to support a family and thereby have no worthless money either. By these very rules and stipulations they are excluded. We both exclude some people. We just have different criteria that we follow to do so. Not all retreats have to be the same. Edited by Raven, Oct 16 2011, 02:06 AM.
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| The truth is not for all men, but only for those that seek it. Ayn Rand | |
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| Mommacat | Oct 16 2011, 03:22 AM Post #70 |
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In my way of thinking, the discussion of heaven or hell, or lack of either, isn't really relevant to prepping. What is relevant is everyone's right to their own opinion and right to worship, or not, as they see fit. I agree with Raven that every group needs to have its own criteria for membership and the rules and requirements will be different for those groups. HF, you once commented that you felt that since you would be providing the place for the group that you felt others should contribute significantly and I took that to mean that you didn't feel anything more should really be required of you. I don't know if a group formed on that basis would have long-term viability - at some point, people are not going to feel that they are getting a fair shake - true, you provide the place, but the rest - the defense, the stores, the bodies to handle the never-ending workload, would come from members and if the members feel like they are paying you for a place to survive, I can see the pitfalls in that arrangment without a lot of imagination. I don't know what the wise answer would be. I do know that in the present, things like taxes and upkeep and anything and everything you do for your farm are of benefit to you and you only, so expecting people to contibute to those things "just in case" is unrealistic and doesn't take into account that members still have their own day-to-day expenses and obligations to keep their lives in the present running. They too have to pay taxes and upkeep and insurance, etc. It would only be after a disaster that those things would be gone. It makes more sense to me to have members pre-position stores and equipment. If there is a large, expensive item that the group needs, then I believe a vote on the purchase and an amount collected from each memeber makes sense. But, keep in mind, if you want to put in a new water system tomorrow, that's really all on you, it isn't the responsibility of the group to improve your property when you would be enjoying the benefit exclusively until, or if, a disaster strikes. True, in the long range, the group would benefit, but trying to make people pre-pay for things that they may never enjoy the use of is not realistic, in my opinion. I fully understand the need for a group to be highly selective of who will be included as members. To my way of thinking, we may be putting the cart before the horse, here. By that I mean, it makes better sense to me to select your members first, choosing those you trust, that have demonstrated they are serious and those that you know to be committed to surviving and thriving. Once the member-core is formed is, in my opinion, the time to develop the "rules and requirements" that go along with the membership. If you think about it - if the only criteria for being a member was a set of written down requirements, you don't have the ability to keep the group core intact. If anybody that shows up with $10,000.00 and a truck load of supplies is "in", you have potentially opened your group up to all sorts of bad things, including a hostile take over by new members that would out-vote the core group. The key element in forming any survival group is that the membership is of necessity small and the members have trust and confidence in each other. As the situations changes and things either improve or deteriorate, new people would show up and not all of them should be asked to join the group - some would be an asset to the group, but others would not - the core membership needs to exercise great caution and serious consideration in accepting new members. Finally, for some people, a PSHTF situation will be hell, but for others, it would be heaven - it may be a chance to finally get it right - an opportunity to reshape our society in a more self-sufficient and responsible way of living. I am of the latter group - I would welcome the chance to get a fair exchange for my hard work and the feeling that what I do makes a difference, I would feel great freedom in being able to sell an egg to my neighbor without the gov't telling me I cannot or imposing ridiculous rules and regulations so that nobody benefits but the gov't. As things are now, that is not the case.
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