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Founder Succession Act
Topic Started: Feb 23 2007, 04:55 AM (421 Views)
Dr Strange Love
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"Rabble Rouser"

Founder Succession Act

1. In the event that the Founder is absent for seven straight days without prior explanation, the Secretary of State may with the permission of a majority of the cabinet of The Exodus, assume the powers of founder and the title of Provisional President of The Exodus.

2. In the event that the Secretary of State assumes the title and powers of Provisional President of The Exodus, they will assume authority over the UN Delegate and may appoint a new one if necessary.

3. In the event that the Founder ceases to exist, or has been absent for 30 days straight-the office of Founder shall be formally abolished. The UN Delegate shall assume the provisional title of Regent and shall be responsible for the security of the region in addition to their previous duties as UN Delegate. The Regent will be under the authority of the Provisional President.

4. An election for President of The Exodus must be held no more than 30 days after the formal abolition of the office of founder.

5.Upon the election of the first President of The Exodus, that individual shall assume the former powers of the formal offices of both the Founder and the UN Delegate. The President shall be the region’s UN Delegate.

6. The President of The Exodus shall serve for 6 month terms. There are no term limits.

7. In the event of the reappearance of the Founder, it will be up to Regional Assembly to decide whether to restore legal recognition to the Founder and abolish the office of President, regardless of the de-facto situation in the region,

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Ds Rainbow Phoenix
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I find this proposal counterproductive and question the motives behind it.

We have just taken a very postive step in getting the constitution passed, and are unified. Why then bring this up now?

Also I find this very disrespectful to our Founder. if there was a reason for this, like an inactive Founder then sure, but not just out of the blue.
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rode afro
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red as hell

Quote:
 
Also I find this very disrespectful to our Founder. if there was a reason for this, like an inactive Founder then sure, but not just out of the blue.


i disagree on that, we should have some rule redy in case the founder misteriously disapears, our current founder misteriously disapearing seems extremly unlikely to me but we should have something in place if he does.

I DO NOT see this proposal as a good one, it holds changes that directly oppose the current constitution and nothing in this proposal suits me at all.
The main problems i have are:

Quote:
 
In the event that the Secretary of State assumes the title and powers of Provisional President of The Exodus, they will assume authority over the UN Delegate and may appoint a new one if necessary.

Our UN delegat is a person appointed by a democratic election, giving the Secretary of State the power to lift him from office on the absence of the founder is rediculous, undemocratic and dangerous.

Quote:
 
3. In the event that the Founder ceases to exist, or has been absent for 30 days straight-the office of Founder shall be formally abolished. The UN Delegate shall assume the provisional title of Regent and shall be responsible for the security of the region in addition to their previous duties as UN Delegate. The Regent will be under the authority of the Provisional President.


this puts the person in power who has been selected by the Secretary of State and so we will then have a puppet(UN delegat) and a puppetmaster ruling the state for they are now in charge of security of great power with no one able to oppose them(for the UN delegat might be a puppet ruled by the Secretary of State).

Quote:
 
An election for President of The Exodus must be held no more than 30 days after the formal abolition of the office of founder.


so when the founder dissapears the Exodus changes in a republic? there is nothing in the constitution that supports such a position, if we where even considering such a rule then you should have added a discription of the president when you posted this.

Quote:
 
5.Upon the election of the first President of The Exodus, that individual shall assume the former powers of the formal offices of both the Founder and the UN Delegate. The President shall be the region’s UN Delegate.


Now you abolish a democraticly elected office and give it to a position(president) that has no legal standing in the Exodus.

Quote:
 
7. In the event of the reappearance of the Founder, it will be up to Regional Assembly to decide whether to restore legal recognition to the Founder and abolish the office of President, regardless of the de-facto situation in the region,


so after changing the whole exodus the Founder would be nothing more then a member like all of us so what would give him the right to resume his position?


I do not like a proposal with so manny loopholes, dangers for the democracy of the Exodus and constitutional changes for a constitution that has just been passed.
if you sereaslly want a legislation passed with a failsafe in the absence of the founder you are going to have to do a lot better then this. And don't we have rules in case the founder is absend for an extendet period of time?
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Dr Strange Love
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"Rabble Rouser"

Quote:
 
I find this proposal counterproductive and question the motives behind it.

We have just taken a very postive step in getting the constitution passed, and are unified. Why then bring this up now?

Also I find this very disrespectful to our Founder. if there was a reason for this, like an inactive Founder then sure, but not just out of the blue.


Oh please, I have nothing against Avolon and I certainly have no expectation that he would behave like this, but then again who knows what will happen when or if he leaves the game and passes on the foundership to a successor. I'll admit this is not an issue of vital urgency, but I think it is a good addition to our legal canon to have a plan in place if we ever wind up founderless instead of just passing that bridge when it comes to it. Do me and the region a favor and try to treat my proposed legislation based on its own merits instead of looking at it through the brimstone colored glasses that you put on every time you see one of my post.

And Rode Afro, go read the constitution. The Secretary of State can already be named acting founder, this clarifies things further. As for there not being an office of President of The Exodus in the constitution, well the constitution states specifically that the ra can legislate on anything it wishes, including amending the constitution.

In the end it does not matter if a piece of legislation contradicts the constitution or adds things to the government that were not previously there. All that matters is if it is a good piece of legislation or not.

Quote:
 
Our UN delegat is a person appointed by a democratic election, giving the Secretary of State the power to lift him from office on the absence of the founder is rediculous, undemocratic and dangerous.


The UN Delegate is also the person who will be the last line of defense against invaders and other malcontents should the founder cease to exist. If they won't be up the job than they should be replaced before it occurs.



Quote:
 
this puts the person in power who has been selected by the Secretary of State and so we will then have a puppet(UN delegat) and a puppetmaster ruling the state for they are now in charge of security of great power with no one able to oppose them(for the UN delegat might be a puppet ruled by the Secretary of State).


How much power does the UN Delegate have now? Is this really more power than the founder has now who is not really an elected official either? Also remember that the constitution already says that the Secretary of State can serve as acting founder.
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rode afro
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red as hell

well Dsl the whole fact that the secretary can serve as acting founder makes me wonder abouth the use of this legislation.

Quote:
 
As for there not being an office of President of The Exodus in the constitution, well the constitution states specifically that the ra can legislate on anything it wishes, including amending the constitution.


and i have no problem with that, but should not a proposal be complete? the point i was making that if this passed we would have to start with a whole discussion about the president and make that function legal in the constitution, i also have no problem with that exept for the fact that if we pass this legislation and fail to agree on the function of the president later we have a major problem.
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Dr Strange Love
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"Rabble Rouser"

But the function of the President is already spelled out in my proposal. The President would inherit the powers and duties currently accorded to the offices of Founder and UN Delegate in the Constitution.
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rode afro
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red as hell

Quote:
 
The UN Delegate is also the person who will be the last line of defense against invaders and other malcontents should the founder cease to exist. If they won't be up the job than they should be replaced before it occurs.


but when the founder becomes inactive the secretairy of state gets his powers, hence the UN delegate is not last line of defence, the secratary of state is still there.

btw you still did not really explain wy the president should be UN delegate as well, i see no use for that.
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Dr Strange Love
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"Rabble Rouser"

If the Secretary of State/President is to replace the founder upon there CTE than they would need access to the regional controls. That can only be accessed by a founder or a UN Delegate. Thus the office of UN Delegate is merged into the office of President.
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Philosophe Move
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Agitated Forum Member

I agree with the concept, but not the parts about the UN Delegate. The Secretary of State should not have the ability to kick out and replace a UN Delegate at whim, and the PResident should not assume the role of UN Delegate. The UN Delegate should be UN Delegate.
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Dr Strange Love
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"Rabble Rouser"


But which makes more sense? Maintaining the powers of the founder and investing them in a new office or dividing them up between a couple of people solely for the sack of maintaining the UN Delegate as a separate office?
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Ds Rainbow Phoenix
Unregistered

FROM THE CONSTITUTION:
Quote:
 
1. The Founder:
a. By nature of the fact the Founder created and established The Exodus; The Founder is the highest official designation and cannot be elected to nor removed from power by any action other than his own resignation.

b. The Founder is responsible for all issues and activities relating to The Exodus Forum.

c. The Founder is responsible for all issues and activities relating to the overall security of the Exodus Region.

d. The Founder is vested with the authority to eject any nation of The Exodus with cause. The following causes are accepted as immediately ejectable offences:
i. region crashing
ii. spamming
iii. flaming
iv. recruiting Exodus nations for other regions
v. endorsement swapping that crosses 75% of the endorsements of the legal UN Delegate

e. The Founder has the sole authority to appoint/dismiss The Secretary of State of The Exodus

f. The Founder shall obey and respect the laws and regulation of The Exodus.

g. The Founder shall not abuse his powers.

2. The Secretary of State
a. The Secretary of State is selected by the Founder.

b. The Secretary of State serves as an advisor to the Founder.

c. The Secretary of State with the express authority of the Founder can act in the temporary place of the Founder. This temporary status is limited in its scope for time and circumstances.

d. The Secretary of State also serves as the head of The Regional Protection Agency (RPA).

e. The Secretary of State shall obey and respect the laws and regulation of The Exodus.

f. In the event of unforeseen circumstance which may prevent the Founder from the continuing activity of The Exodus, the Secretary of State will be titled as the Acting Founder and take over whatever roles as is possible, until such time that the Senate can convene and decide on a pertinent and relevant course of action.


This is a nice distraction and all, but the fact remains (as DSL has pointed out in other debates about the power of the Founder many times) that no amount of legislation can MAKE the founder give up the regional password, and therefore regional control so this is in fact a mute point.

And since Avolon is not going anywhere, I ask again, out of all the possible proposals to bring before the RA, why this one and why now?

All of this is already covered in the constitution that was just passed and it is highly suspicious to me that out of nowhere this proposal should suddenly surface less than a week after the constitution passed. Could it be a case of sour grapes since it is pretty obvious who the one nation was who voted against the constitution?

An important fact has also been left out here. The reason that The Exodus is set up so that the Founder is the only person with the regional password is so that we CANNOT be invaded, because invasions happen when UN nations come into a region, get the most endorsements and thus become regional delegate and then gain the regional password, so if we were to give the UN delegate or any other member of government the password, we risk regional security and invasions. Look at the crap Josh caused because he had access to the password and Avs trusted him and ask yourselves if you want to go through that again or worse (because in a very missguided way Joshua had the interests of the region at heart, an invador would not)??? because that is exactly what this proposal would put us at risk for.
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Dr Strange Love
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"Rabble Rouser"

Quote:
 
This is a nice distraction and all, but the fact remains (as DSL has pointed out in other debates about the power of the Founder many times) that no amount of legislation can MAKE the founder give up the regional password, and therefore regional control so this is in fact a mute point.

And since Avolon is not going anywhere, I ask again, out of all the possible proposals to bring before the RA, why this one and why now?


This is for a situation when the Founder has become absent and proceeds to cease to exist. The point your making is completely moot. Also DSboy, I have admitted that this is not a pressing issue. So what? Are there more pressing issues? If there are how about you write your own piece of legislation to address them. If that is beyond your abilities than feel free to just state what the more pressing issue is and I will write the appropriate legislation for you. ;)

Quote:
 
All of this is already covered in the constitution that was just passed and it is highly suspicious to me that out of nowhere this proposal should suddenly surface less than a week after the constitution passed. Could it be a case of sour grapes since it is pretty obvious who the one nation was who voted against the constitution?


It is but in a very unspecific manner. I am offering legislation that specifies the process. If you cannot understand that I am genuinely trying to help this region by improving its legal code than that is truly sad. Even though I frequently disagree with your ideas, methods and actions-I still realize that you at least have the best interest of the region at heart and I can respect that to a certain extent.

That is also a lovely ad-hominem attack on me that is both un-provable and un-true. If I had any serious issue with the constitution at the time I would have come out vocally against it. Surely you should realize by now that I don't sit quietly in the corner when I am strongly opposed to something. If you want to continue shouting from the monkey bars about how I am a bad person who means only harm to the region than go on ahead, but I will no longer be dignifying it with a response. I will only respond to substantive criticism of my proposals, not any more ad-hominem lies.
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Ds Rainbow Phoenix
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^OK how about this for a substantive criticism?

AGAIN:
An important fact has also been left out here. The reason that The Exodus is set up so that the Founder is the only person with the regional password is so that we CANNOT be invaded, because invasions happen when UN nations come into a region, get the most endorsements and thus become regional delegate and then gain the regional password, so if we were to give the UN delegate or any other member of government the password, we risk regional security and invasions. Look at the crap Josh caused because he had access to the password and Avs trusted him and ask yourselves if you want to go through that again or worse (because in a very missguided way Joshua had the interests of the region at heart, an invador would not)??? because that is exactly what this proposal would put us at risk for.
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Dr Strange Love
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"Rabble Rouser"

Quote:
 
^OK how about this for a substantive criticism?

AGAIN:
An important fact has also been left out here. The reason that The Exodus is set up so that the Founder is the only person with the regional password is so that we CANNOT be invaded, because invasions happen when UN nations come into a region, get the most endorsements and thus become regional delegate and then gain the regional password, so if we were to give the UN delegate or any other member of government the password, we risk regional security and invasions. Look at the crap Josh caused because he had access to the password and Avs trusted him and ask yourselves if you want to go through that again or worse (because in a very missguided way Joshua had the interests of the region at heart, an invador would not)??? because that is exactly what this proposal would put us at risk for.

Oh lordy! For anybody reading this who has not founded a region yet, go ahead and do so just so you will know how the regional controls actually work and won't make a post as embarrassingly ignorant as the one above.

Ok, where to begin? First off there is no regional password. Joshua was able to take control of the region because he had the password to the founder nation. This is a major distinction which will be become clear to those who continue to read this. When a founder founds a region they automatically have access to the regional controls. One of the options in the regional controls is whether to allow the UN Delegate access to the controls. The delegate controls to The Exodus are off which effectively eliminates the threat of invasion. However, when a founder nation ceases to exist, the delegate controls are automatically activated. If the founder of The Exodus were to cease to exist, the region would be under threat of invasion. Is that clear to you all?

Now to move on, I am not proposing that any password be given to anyone. What I am proposing that is that if the founder were to cease to exist, a new official who would also serve as UN Delegate would inherit the legal powers of the Founder as well as the access to the regional controls which is afforded to the UN Delegate by the game when a founder ceases to exist. Where all this crap about passwords or making the region vulnerable to takeover is coming from, I have no freaking idea.
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Ds Rainbow Phoenix
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Quote:
 
Now to move on, I am not proposing that any password be given to anyone. What I am proposing that is that if the founder were to cease to exist, a new official who would also serve as UN Delegate would inherit the legal powers of the Founder as well as the access to the regional controls which is afforded to the UN Delegate by the game when a founder ceases to exist.


This does not say what you imply the purpose of this proposal is in the quote above:
Quote:
 
3. In the event that the Founder ceases to exist, or has been absent for 30 days straight-the office of Founder shall be formally abolished. The UN Delegate shall assume the provisional title of Regent and shall be responsible for the security of the region in addition to their previous duties as UN Delegate. The Regent will be under the authority of the Provisional President.


Also if the the UN Delegate automatically becomes the person with access and control in the event of the Founder CTeing as a matter of course, why this proposal and how would it change the natural progression of this power to the UN delegate????????????? Or guarentee that the UN delegate would abide by the rules in this proposal given their new far reaching powers??????
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Avolon
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Don't ever count me out!

First off let me start by saying that the rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated. I have no intent on leaving NS or TE anytime soon, so this article although a reasonable safe guard is not something we should be fighting over right now. We can calmly hash it over and I am sure that an amicable resolution will be had. Although a line of succession seems to be in place already. The SoS ia appointed by the Founder thus they are first in line if Title is passed, then UN Del, MoIA, MoFR, Chief Justice, Spearker of Nations, Deputy MoIA, *Deputy MoFR (if post is filled)*, and finally if all save the very last is CTE a regional vote would be carried out by the last surviving member and thus the Title and pw would be passed. Long and drugout, but I think it covers any and all nations that would be able to fill the office and leave the fears of those opposed to the altrnative behind them. Just a thought on my part.
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Dr Strange Love
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"Rabble Rouser"

^That seems sensible enough Avs.

Quote:
 
This does not say what you imply the purpose of this proposal is in the quote above:
QUOTE
3. In the event that the Founder ceases to exist, or has been absent for 30 days straight-the office of Founder shall be formally abolished. The UN Delegate shall assume the provisional title of Regent and shall be responsible for the security of the region in addition to their previous duties as UN Delegate. The Regent will be under the authority of the Provisional President.


Read the entire proposal DS. What you quote is a temporary measure that ends when the first President is elected.

Quote:
 
Also if the the UN Delegate automatically becomes the person with access and control in the event of the Founder CTeing as a matter of course, why this proposal and how would it change the natural progression of this power to the UN delegate????????????? Or guarentee that the UN delegate would abide by the rules in this proposal given their new far reaching powers??????


What it does is create a legal mechanism for transferring that power to a democratically elected office that will function as both UN Delegate and Acting Founder. As for what is to stop an UN Delegate from acting tyrannically? While laws like this for one thing. As long as respect for the law remains here we will be safe from internal coups.
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oodges
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annoyance united

rode afro
Feb 24 2007, 04:59 AM
Quote:
 
Also I find this very disrespectful to our Founder. if there was a reason for this, like an inactive Founder then sure, but not just out of the blue.


i disagree on that, we should have some rule redy in case the founder misteriously disapears, our current founder misteriously disapearing seems extremly unlikely to me but we should have something in place if he does.

I DO NOT see this proposal as a good one, it holds changes that directly oppose the current constitution and nothing in this proposal suits me at all.
The main problems i have are:

Quote:
 
In the event that the Secretary of State assumes the title and powers of Provisional President of The Exodus, they will assume authority over the UN Delegate and may appoint a new one if necessary.

Our UN delegat is a person appointed by a democratic election, giving the Secretary of State the power to lift him from office on the absence of the founder is rediculous, undemocratic and dangerous.

Quote:
 
3. In the event that the Founder ceases to exist, or has been absent for 30 days straight-the office of Founder shall be formally abolished. The UN Delegate shall assume the provisional title of Regent and shall be responsible for the security of the region in addition to their previous duties as UN Delegate. The Regent will be under the authority of the Provisional President.


this puts the person in power who has been selected by the Secretary of State and so we will then have a puppet(UN delegat) and a puppetmaster ruling the state for they are now in charge of security of great power with no one able to oppose them(for the UN delegat might be a puppet ruled by the Secretary of State).

Quote:
 
An election for President of The Exodus must be held no more than 30 days after the formal abolition of the office of founder.


so when the founder dissapears the Exodus changes in a republic? there is nothing in the constitution that supports such a position, if we where even considering such a rule then you should have added a discription of the president when you posted this.

Quote:
 
5.Upon the election of the first President of The Exodus, that individual shall assume the former powers of the formal offices of both the Founder and the UN Delegate. The President shall be the region’s UN Delegate.


Now you abolish a democraticly elected office and give it to a position(president) that has no legal standing in the Exodus.

Quote:
 
7. In the event of the reappearance of the Founder, it will be up to Regional Assembly to decide whether to restore legal recognition to the Founder and abolish the office of President, regardless of the de-facto situation in the region,


so after changing the whole exodus the Founder would be nothing more then a member like all of us so what would give him the right to resume his position?


I do not like a proposal with so manny loopholes, dangers for the democracy of the Exodus and constitutional changes for a constitution that has just been passed.
if you sereaslly want a legislation passed with a failsafe in the absence of the founder you are going to have to do a lot better then this. And don't we have rules in case the founder is absend for an extendet period of time?

i agree with every word he said
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rode afro
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red as hell

Quote:
 
Although a line of succession seems to be in place already. The SoS ia appointed by the Founder thus they are first in line if Title is passed, then UN Del, MoIA, MoFR, Chief Justice, Spearker of Nations, Deputy MoIA, *Deputy MoFR (if post is filled)*


WOEHOE i am 7the in line of succesion so all i have to do to become almighty is take out 6 people *evil laugh otvdevil *
just trying to lighten the mood here :P

Quote:
 
All of this is already covered in the constitution that was just passed and it is highly suspicious to me that out of nowhere this proposal should suddenly surface less than a week after the constitution passed. Could it be a case of sour grapes since it is pretty obvious who the one nation was who voted against the constitution?


come on DS this is a grasp in the dark and unreasneble towards Dsl, don't get to parenoid. As our founder pointed out this is not a pressing matter as Avs is not going ennywhere and definatly not going to disapear, if he gets some pressing matters to attend to i am sure he will let us know in wich case this legislation will not come into action. So wy not just take this calmly without heated conversation and blind accusation, we have all the time in the world to discus this.
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oodges
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annoyance united

to be honest i reckon someone clicked no by accident. everyone who had complaints said them and agreed to the changes
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