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The moon and the rut; still though...
Topic Started: Mar 17 2009, 04:38 PM (2,259 Views)
Posted Image Sam Menard


Positing about this topic is a bit weird for me because I'm a believer of sound science. I am aware that there has been scientific papers presented that discount Charles Aslsheimer's hypothesis that the 2nd full moon after the fall equinox trigers the rut.

Still though, it's been my own personal experiences that suggests that there might be something behind the hypothesis. Granted, I'm not out in the deer woods 24/7 during the fall so I can only base my opinion on a short window. BUT, there have been times when the hypothesis has been bang on.

Take this past fall for example, many hunters across several Forums reported that the rut didn't happen, or wasn't noticeable. I happen to hunt the week starting Saturday November 13th; which was probably later than most hunters. Our party did experience some classic rutting (breeding) behaviour at several locations. Coincidently, this was at the same time that Alsheimer said would be prime time.

All the arguments that I've read or heard about that discount the hypothesis are valid. Stil though, I'm keeping an open mind about this.

A word about aging fetuses to predict conception dates; I read in Deer and Deer Hunting magazine that some of the methods used are not very accurate. I'm going to go through my back issues to refresh my memory.

Sam
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I'm of the persuasion that there is something to it, but that's just me. From what I've seen, there is something to be learned...but then again...,maybe it's ME that's affected by the Moon...LOL..
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Renegade
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I am on the fence on the moon and the rut myself. I don't think you can base your decision on a few seasons of experience, you need a whole lot of seasons and objective research. I like much of what Charles Aslsheimer has written and no doubt he has some great wisdom on whitetails. Of course there are two sides to this. I don't time my hunt based on what the expected time of the rut is and I judge rutting activity during my hunts. Doe's come into estrous over a long period of time in the fall, just hope to have one near my stand while I'm hunting. :D
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Posted Image Sam Menard


Rene, your right that you can't base an opinion on one or two season. That's why it takes several years of reasearch based on sound scientific principles to publish a scientific paper. I would expect that Alsheimer and Laroche will publish their findings but it will be a few years down the road.

Incidently, I've been deer hunting for over 35 years and from my limited experiences, there is something to their hypothesis. Deer may have some ability beyond our understanding (something more than light levels) that triggers the rut.

If I'm not mistaken, next November's full moon will occur early in the month. It will be interesting to hear what hunters have witnessed re. rutting activity.

Sam
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Posted Image WLK
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I too am suspect to Alshiemers moon phase theory, but he has stated it's a 15 year study and he's only about in the middle of his research.
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I definitely think the moon has an effect on animal activity including the rut but I also think that even the best studies are not even coming close to understanding the complexity of all the elements involved. I think it will be decades before the mystery is unraveled to a simplistic form that hunters can use effectively. Right now it is just a bunch of best guesses and theories.
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well put Muskoka Whitetails!..I agree.
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Posted Image Terrym
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Alot of what I have read also states that its the photoperiod or hours of daylight that triggers the rut. I read that in controlled conditions where they controlled the amount of daylight they could trigger rutting activity in almost any month?
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Renegade
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Quote:
 
Alot of what I have read also states that its the photoperiod or hours of daylight that triggers the rut. I read that in controlled conditions where they controlled the amount of daylight they could trigger rutting activity in almost any month?


That is what member TR Michels contends.
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renegade
Mar 17 2009, 06:46 PM
Quote:
 
Alot of what I have read also states that its the photoperiod or hours of daylight that triggers the rut. I read that in controlled conditions where they controlled the amount of daylight they could trigger rutting activity in almost any month?


That is what member TR Michels contends.

Yeah I read it from Leonard Lee Rue about 20 yrs ago.
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Posted Image Sam Menard


Alsheimer also believes that photoperiod is the reason why the rut occurs in the fall. He has brought the concept further by stating that its the moon that causes the rut to occur when it does each fall. As the full moon date in November varies from year to year so does the peak of the rut... or so he says.

On a bit of side note, it's interesting to hear other hunter's opinions are regarding the rut. Some interpret periods of high buck movement while other (correctly) define it as the time when the bulk of the female poputlation is bred.

Sam
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TRMichels
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If the moon affects the rut, then ask yourself why the researchers in several states (often based on back-dated conception dates, or on fawning dates, which are very reliable) believe peak breeding in their area, occurs at different times than other states.

Texas recently did a study of deer in their state and came up with several different peak breeding dates in the state; Florida, Louisiana and Georgia also have various dates, depending on what part of the state the deer are in.

IF the moon affects peak breeding, and the phase of the moon is the same all over NA, then how can different states have different peak breeding dates, and some states have different peak breeding dates in different areas of the same state.

Granted, back-dated conception dates might be suspect, BUT, how then, now could the peak breeding dates of 1600+ does, over an 8 year period, show that peak breeding occured during the very same week each year??? Even if the methods were suspect, if the moon did trigger peak breeding, there would still be a wide variation of peak breeding dates, because the methods employed were the same each year, and the dates did not change to correlate with the moon phase.

This is pretty irrefutabe evidence.

I doubt that Charlie will ever be able to collect data from such doe numbers. And, when Dr. Karl Miller, who I personally asked to follow up on my findings, did another study, adding another 900 deer, from different years, and 9 other states - he found that there was no correlations betwen peak breeding dates and ANY moon phase.

And Karl personally told me, that he told his good friend Charlie, that his hypothesis was wrong.

You might want to read all of the breeding dates on my Peak Whitetail Breeding Dates chart, and the rest of the information there - including an e-mail to me, from the deer biologist of New Brunswick.

The hypothsis just does not hold up, but many people still hope it does, because they think it will help them determine when peak breeding occurs in their area. The cold hard fact is, that with often fewer than 25% of all the does in the area getting bred during peak breeding, and 20 percent getting bred the week before - and 20 percent the week after - the average hunter will never be able to determine the difference.

Geez - just hunt those three weeks, when the (probable) majoity of does get bred. Isn't a three week time fame in which to hunt - a better time frame than one week???

I was ther first perons to have evidence, and publish it, that could disprove the hypothesis.

God bless,

T.R.
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TRMichels
Mar 17 2009, 07:02 PM




Geez - just hunt those three weeks, when the (probable) majoity of does get bred. Isn't a three week time fame in which to hunt - a better time frame than one week???




Yes this statement is true. But the reason many were/are holding out hope that this moon phase thing holds water is, that not all of us can hunt that 3 week period where we want to hunt. I drive 1300 miles each fall to hunt Ontario, sure would be nice if I knew which one of the 3 weeks was the best ? But maybe your right, there maybe so little diference between the 3 that it doesn't matter ?

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Posted Image Sam Menard


TR, I agree that it's hard to refute or ignore sound science. However, like I said in my first post, I've witnessed some strong coincidences that suggests to me that there is more to the timing of the rut than just photoperiod.

I hunt the same week every year (usually the second week of November), and I've never observed the same observed rutting behaviour 2 years in a row. Some years it appears that all the does have been bred, while other years it would appear that peek breeding is ongoing.

To that end, because I hunt the same week each year, it really doesn't matter what phase of the rut it is when I hunt. I'm out in the woods and I take what Ma Nature dishes out and we usually do pretty well.

Sam
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There is no question the timing of the rut is determined by the photoperiod, that is sound proven science. If this was the only facter the rut would be the same time and intensity every year. There are other variables that effect the rut and in my opinion the moon is one of them. I'm not saying it is the phase or the position, or anything else inparticular, just that there is an undetermined effect from it. :hick:
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while a lot of here is great reading the weather has to play a huge factor (least in my opinion) the frosts start and lack of frosts put a stop (or slow down big time) to the moose rut and i can't see the 2 animals being that different in this case. Could also explain why the rut happens in January down in the southern states. I'm still stuck to hunt when i can where i can so i don't have any studies or papers to prove or disprove any arguement, but i sure enjoy the show when i am sitting in the stand.
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TRMichels
Mar 17 2009, 06:02 PM


Texas recently did a study of deer in their state and came up with several different peak breeding dates in the state; Florida, Louisiana and Georgia also have various dates, depending on what part of the state the deer are in.


UUmmmm,,,,

I think you need to read the theory again.

The 35th latitude part .

This is the problem with peoples studies.

It takes into account that all deer are the same everywhere.
Texas is different than North Bay ect.

If we hunted like that we would have a harder time killing in different areas.

As further background, I'll offer the hypothesis for our research. At some point in autumn, the amount of daylight decreases enough to reset the whitetail's reproductive clock, thus placing the breeding season in November, December and January in the Northern Hemisphere. Once the doe's reproductive cycle is reset by a specific amount of daylight, her estrous cycle is ready to be cued by moonlight, which provides a bright light stimulus to the pineal gland several nights in a row each lunar month. Then, the rapid decrease in lunar brightness during the moon's third quarter triggers hormonal production by the pineal gland. Physiological changes prompted by the pineal gland culminate in ovulation and estrous.

A northern doe's estrogen level peaks around November 1st, as does a buck's sperm count. With both sexes poised to breed, it stands to reason a mechanism must be in place if the doe is to enter estrous and be bred under the darker phases of the moon, which are the third through the first quarters. That mechanism in the North (north of about the 35th latitude) is usually the second full moon after the autumnal equinox, which we call the rutting moon.

CHARLES J. ALSHEIMER

We have been following the study for about 10 years now and 2 of those 10 were off .

07 was one and I think the other was 02 but the book is at camp .

Last year bang on again.
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TRMichels
Mar 17 2009, 06:02 PM
. The cold hard fact is, that with often fewer than 25% of all the does in the area getting bred during peak breeding, and 20 percent getting bred the week before - and 20 percent the week after - the average hunter will never be able to determine the difference.



Where is this ?

Our rut is ( Breeding ) a week tops
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TRMichels
Mar 17 2009, 06:02 PM





You might want to read all of the breeding dates on my Peak Whitetail Breeding Dates chart, and the rest of the information there - including an e-mail to me, from the deer biologist of New Brunswick.


Is this the same guy that uses the fetal calculator to "esimate " breeding times for does that have been hit by cars ?

I believe that this method is now being found out not to be full proof correct ?
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I agree that the amount of available light affects the timing of the rut because it is based on scientific research, but with that being said I still have to wonder if the moon does have some effect. I say this because the full moon period is knowen to have an affect on even humans. I have read studies about how crimes increase dramaticly during full moon periods as well as large increases at hospital emergency rooms so my belief is if the full moon can have an effect on people I dont see why it would not somehow also have an effect on deer. Just my thoughts. Northshore.
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I too believe it is a combination of less light AND the lunar phase. Just a quick question for Muskoka or TR as I know you two observe a lot of whitetail does. I know some animals can be "tricked'' into priming up early and also can be brought into estrus with shortening artificial light when kept indoors. Will a doe come into heat if kept indoors under artificial light 24/7? I'm guessing the answer is yes and if so why would she when there is light 24/7? Maybe I'm wrong but I find it hard to believe a doe wouldn't come into heat if kept indoors under lights her whole life but maybe I'm wrong. ( Why do house dogs shed their hair when they don't have a clue how short the days are outside?) Does an animals inner clock and instinct trump over all of our guessing and theories? How can a salmon return to it's birth place to spawn after being out in the ocean for 4 years? How does a homing pigeon find its way back to its keeper after he drives it 200 miles inside a car and then releases it? I know there are scientific reasons for all this but there's so much we'll never know.
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Big R,

That bit about the 35 latitude is the problem. Many people, including those below that latitude, believe that when anyone says that the moon triggers the rut, they think it means that deer all over of North America, breed at the same time -during some moon phase.

And, how do they interpret the rut, or back up their beliefs? Some of them interpret the phrase "the peak of the rut" as the timeframe when they see stupid buck activity, or bucks moving around throughout the day, some think of it as the timeframe when they actually "see "bucks chasing does, and some take it to mean the timeframe when does actually get/are bred.

Then you throw in the statement (of the hypothesis) that the deer above the 35 latitude breed in November, December and January. Of course some deer breed in each of those months, because breeding season lengths in many areas are long enough that some breeding occurs at least in November and December.

Is this hypothesis now stating that it does not matter which month they breed in, they will breed every year, during a specific time frame which is correlated with some specific phase of the moon? Just what time frame is that?

See, there is where I have a problem. Now you are talking abotu three months - instead of one month.

I think for the purposes of this discussion we should define what we mean by "the pak of the rut". I believe, after talkng to Larry and Karl, and our own deer researcher back when the study was done, who was Al Berner, and readng the e-mail sent to me by the New Brunswick deer biologist, that peak of the rut means "the one week of the year when peak breeding occcurs".

So, the question is, to you, and for all hunters, how do you define "the peak of the rut" and what methods are you using it to determine when it actually occurs? The question is essential (and the defining of when you, and they, think peak rut occurs), in order for all of us to understand the different hypothesis out there.

I'd also like to know what Larry, and Karl and the other deer biologists who followed up on my conclusions (as a result of the data here in MN) think of this hypothesis. What do they think? Do any deer biologists support this hypothesis? If so how many?And who?

Let me add that by stating that there were two times when the "years were off", you are admitting that the hypothesis did not hold up (it is wrong), and it does not meet the cirteria for a "theory".

After those pertinent questions are answered, and the definition of "peak rut" is answered, and the time frame (in relation to the lunar month) when peak breeding is supposed to occur is defined, I'm sure I'll have some more comments.

May bless you and yours,

T.R.
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TR,Will a whitetail doe come into heat if it spends all its life indoors with lighting 24/7?
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bigr
Mar 17 2009, 09:41 PM
TRMichels
Mar 17 2009, 06:02 PM
. The cold hard fact is, that with often fewer than 25% of all the does in the area  getting bred during peak breeding, and 20 percent getting bred the week before -  and 20 percent the week after -  the average hunter will never be able to determine the  difference.



Where is this ?

Our rut is ( Breeding ) a week tops

Many states have extended breeding seasons, up to 90+ days. Ours in MN is at least that long, and is the source for the statement. Ther are also studies from Karl in Georgia that show extended breeding dates. I suspect that Wisconsin is the same as MN.

A week long. Not in the lower 48, why else would so many people talk about the "late rut" in December, when peak rut is in November. Because the breeding season is longer than a week.

I sincerely doubt that the rut is only a week long - anywhere. It flies in the face of deer species research all over the world. Are you saying that (lets say 90%) of the does in your area are bred during one week. How then could the deer be bred in November, December AND January.

You might want to check out the peak breeding dates,AND breeding season lengthts, for all of the states (dates provided to me by state biologists), which can found at http://www.trmichels.com/RutDates.htm. If you look at it you will see that, accorign to the biologists in each state, peak breeding generally occurs during mid November, for most of the states above tthe 35th parallel. This does not agree with your hypothesis.

Even if we look at breeding dates of farmed deer, the largest deer breeder here in MN says that his does breed (he actually sees them get bred) during the same week each year.

How big is your "area" and who provides the data, and how do they determine when peak rut occurs?

Again, these are pertinent questions.


Here is an e-mail sent to me:

Dear T.R.;

I ran across an article of yours while trying to find some contact names for the Southeast Deer Study Group. I began to read with apprehension, but was pleasantly surprised to see you had reached the same conclusions I have with respect to deer rutting behavior and moon phases.

I recently purchased several books by the so called "Dr. Deer" (Dr. James Kroll). I read quite intently his writings about moon phases/positions and its influence (or not) on deer breeding activity. I was surprised that he does concur that the moon has an effect on rut timing, but was more surprised that the very data he uses to support this (both a chart of NA breeding dates, AND Pennsylvania breeding data) could very easily be used (to me) to disprove his theory. If deer are breeding at different times all over eastern North America (and we all experience the same hunters moon), he has just destroyed his own theory.

However, I also am a deer biologist and have access to good data for our area. Being an avid hunter as well, I have been looking at our breeding dates and timing here in New Brunswick since I began this job in 1997. Again, I found absolutely NO pattern here with our dates and the so called "hunter's moon" - the theory he purports. In the fall of 2002, after 6 years with no correlation, the peak breeding here did line up with the moon, but then again, if our deer continually breed the last 2 weeks of November, first week of December, sooner or later it will - by mere coincidence - wind up on the same date as a full moon.

I have written for two reasons. First, I have data on date of death of female deer (Jan.-June) along with fetal ruler measurements by which I calculate conception dates for New Brunswick since 1997. I have compared daily numbers of breeding does with moon phases, and also with actual buck harvests. I have yet to statistically compare the second set of data, but looking preliminarily at the data, hunter effort has more to do with when bucks are shot than any moon phase, etc. I'd be more than happy to share additional data from the eastern end of the country with you to further substantiate your case.

Second, I wanted to encourage you to continue to tell it like it is. To that end, you can use my name when you mention our data here in NB and that I have found the same results. Day to day weather, as well as hunting pressure & hormones influence what a deer does much more than the moon. Look forward to getting to know you.

All the best in WTD management,

Rod Cumberland, CWB, New Brunswick Deer Management Biologist

(end quote)


God bless,

T.R.
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TR,Will a deer come into heat if raised indoors with artificial lighting 24/7?
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buckstop
Mar 18 2009, 01:08 AM
Will a deer come into heat if raised indoors with artificial lighting 24/7?

TR, Will a buck have the urge to breed and produce enough testosterone if raised with artificial lighting 24/7?
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I myself was always under the assumption that the frost had a great deal to do with the Rut....
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IF it is the shortening hours of daylight in the fall, that triggers the rut, then the answer is no to both questions.

It has been shown that deer kept indoors can be brought into estrus (anytime of the year) using pregnant mare hormones, AND shortening the number of hours each day that the lights are left on. Dr. Karl Miller told me he used melatonin (which appears to be part of the triggering mechanism of the moon/peak breeding hypothesis) to attempt to bring does into estrus. If I remember correctly - he said they could not bring the does into estrus with this system, but they could get them tot grow winter coats. This may destroy the moon/peak breeding hypothesis - if melatonin is part of the equation.

That is is how many deer breeders claim they can have estus doe urine available for use as early as September.

I don't know if you were going here --- but, the fact that does can be brought into estrus - indoors - with no moon light - kind of destroys the moon phase/peak breeding hypothesis - doesn't it??? NOW REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.

God bless,

T.R.
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spent
Mar 18 2009, 02:49 AM
I myself was always under the assumption that the frost had a great deal to do with the Rut....

Not true
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TR

We are and they are calling peak rut ,,, Breeding phase and

You don't need to go through that much explaination to ask a question.

There are a couple of questions I asked that never were answered if you please.
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bigr
Mar 17 2009, 09:46 PM
TRMichels
Mar 17 2009, 06:02 PM





You might want to read all of the breeding dates on my Peak Whitetail Breeding Dates chart, and the rest of the information there - including an e-mail to me, from the deer biologist of New Brunswick. 


Is this the same guy that uses the fetal calculator to "esimate " breeding times for does that have been hit by cars ?

I believe that this method is now being found out not to be full proof correct ?

Yes to 1.

2. I'm not sure of that, and h ow would you prove this? But in the case of MN it is doubtful it would make any difference, due to the large number of does used, nd the fact thqt peak breeding was found to occur 8 years in a row, durin the same week. Which, as you know means peak rut did not correlate with the moon.
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bigr
Mar 18 2009, 07:11 AM
TR

We are and they are calling peak rut ,,, Breeding phase and


Your answer is not definitive - enough.

Your term "Breeding Phase" could be construed as the time frame from when the first doe is bred until the last doe is bred; which, since deer in many areas have a breeding season length up to 90 days long - means you could not possibly be wrong in your hypothesis, because the concept is rigged...

Now, since you are a good Christian man -

Do you mean

1. the time frame when bucks are most often seen during daylight hours.

2. the time frame when bucks are seen activley chasing does

3. the time frame when you or hunters "think" the breeding phase is in progress

4. the time frame from when the first doe gets bred until the last doe gets bred

5. the one week of the year when more breeding occurs than any other week

6. other description (please define exactly)



May god bless you,

T.R.
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Big R,

Is this Charles Alsheimer making these posts???


I'm waiting for your response to my questions.

I was kind enough to answer yours, now please answer mine.

They are:

1. Is this hypothesis now stating that it does not matter which month they breed in, they will breed every year, during a specific time frame which is correlated with some specific phase of the moon, and every successive year during the same month? Just what time frame is that? Be specific. How many days before after which moon phase, lasting how many days?

2. So, the question is, to you, and for all hunters, how do you define "the peak of the rut" and what methods are you using it to determine when it actually occurs?

3. I'd also like to know what Larry, and Karl and the other deer biologists who followed up on my conclusions (as a result of the data here in MN) - think of this hypothesis. What do they think? Do any deer biologists support this hypothesis? If so how many? And who?

4. How big is your "area" and who provides the data, and how do they determine when peak rut occurs?

5. How many pregnant does, or actually fawn birth dates, or actual breeding dates, per year, are involved in this study?

6. Are you studying penned deer, or wild, free-ranging deer?



God bless,

T.R.
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Posted Image buckstop
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TRMichels
Mar 18 2009, 02:03 AM
IF it is the shortening hours of daylight in the fall, that triggers the rut, then the answer is no to both questions.

It has been shown that deer kept indoors can be brought into estrus (anytime of the year) using pregnant mare hormones, AND shortening the number of hours each day that the lights are left on. Dr. Karl Miller told me he used melatonin (which appears to be part of the triggering mechanism of the moon/peak breeding hypothesis) to attempt to bring does into estrus. If I remember correctly - he said they could not bring the does into estrus with this system, but they could get them tot grow winter coats. This may destroy the moon/peak breeding hypothesis - if melatonin is part of the equation.

That is is how many deer breeders claim they can have estus doe urine available for use as early as September.

I don't know if you were going here --- but, the fact that does can be brought into estrus - indoors - with no moon light - kind of destroys the moon phase/peak breeding hypothesis - doesn't it???  NOW REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.

God bless,

T.R.

That is not where i was going with the question TR. I am wondering how a deer comes into heat and bucks breed when raised indoors and there is light 24/7 . My question is directed towards the shorter days theory. Again ,I don't know if a doe will come into heat in this situation and I'm having a real hard time beleiving that all the tests done on shortening of light triggering the estrous and rut that noone has ever done this test. Just looking for a yes or no answer as I'm positive this has been done and documented. It is my belief that a doe would not live out her entire life without coming into estrous with 24/7 lighting indoors. If the doe does come into heat this would discredit the shortening of days theory just like you discredited the moon theory with artificial light. MAYBE JUST MAYBE IT'S THE LUNAR EFFECT THE MOON HAS ON THE EARTH THAT HELPS TRIGGER THE RUT AND NOT THE LIGHT. HMMMMMMMMMM IF IT CAN AFFECT TIDES,BEHAVIOR,ETC.... THEN WHY CAN'T IT HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE RUT. Animals don't need to see the moon like you claim they only need to feel it to trigger their biological clock.
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Posted Image Sam Menard


Here's a few facts for this discussion:

- years ago, several states in the US southeast rebuilt their deer herds with deer transplanted from northern states. These transplanted deer and their offsprings have kept their original breeding dates. Some states have a mixed-bag of peek breeding dates within their borders; some early, some late.

- deer herds with unbalanced sex ratios and predominantly young buck populations have longer drawn out ruts than balanced herds. For example, states such as Pennsylvania and Michigan have been cited has having out of whack deer herds.

- several deer experts have maintained that in healthy deer herds, breeding of the majority of the doe population occurs in a relatively short time period i.e. 5 - 7 days. That being said, there are does that don't breed in this window of opportunity; some breed earlier and some later. Hence you have an actual breeding season that is 2 or 3 months long.

- TR discussed the silent rut which occurs early (October). Likely some does do ovulate and are bred at this time.

- Fawns that reach the 86 pound can breed. This weight milestone usually occurs later in the fall (December).

- According to Lenny Rue, the number of does that a buck can reasonbly be expected to service is about 6 or 7.

- Recent DNA studies have shown that in about 25% of twin births, the fawns had different fathers.

Sam
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TRMichels
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Buck stop

It is unlikely anyone has done studies on what you talk about, they probably never tried - because they know it is "shortening" hours of light - not consistent all day light.

But, because it is shortening hours (meaning there has to be less hours of light per day- not MORE hours of light), I suspect it would not work. It goes against deer physiology in the norhtern hemisphere.

However, deer species that live near the equator, may breed year round. But, that has more to do with the availability of forage all year long, which ALLOWS the female to produce milk to feed the young - all year long. And, at thos latitudes, the young may not die of hypothermia like they may do here, if they are born too early in our colder, later spring.

God bless,

T.R.

God bless,

T.R.
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The key word being "healthy" or "socially balanced" as to both bucks and does, meaning a proper number of bucks and does in all age classes. Which, due to hunting pressure, with a large percent of the bucks being 1/5 years old getting kille each year, in many states, is not the case in many states.

Resuling in breeding season lenghts as long as 90+ days in many states.



I guess I may not get answers to my "pointed" questions - anytime soon. I PM'd and e-mailed - and asked for a response.

God bless,

T.R>
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Posted Image buckstop
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I guess I feel the same way about pointed questions. I have asked this question of you. In a past post. BUCKSTOP: If daylight is the main trIgger of the rut then why don't does come into heat in mid October if there is a LOT of rainy and cloudy days in late Sept. and early October. YOUR RESPONSE: They won't because the days would still not be as short as early November days even with the cloudy weather. I say this is absolutely false. There is only about a hour difference in an early October day compared to an early November day. The cloudy days in early October could EASILY cut out a half hour of morning light and cut another half hour in the eve and be even SHORTER than clear days in November. Yet you claim deer will move earlier on cloudy days because it ''fools'' them into believing it's getting dark. How can daylight'' fool'' them into moving earlier yet not ''fool'' them to start the rut. Your two theories discredit each other.

You claim animals can feel the lunar pull yet you discredit the moon having anything to do with the rut . You claim other scientists are absolutely wrong that the moon triggers the rut because a deer can't see the full moon if it's cloudy. I'm saying it is the lunar effect not just moonlight. Go outside on a full moon in the evening. You will know there's a full moon even with cloud cover. It is much lighter out with the clouds than it would be with a ''dark '' moon and no cloud cover.
I will find out the answer to my question about deer coming into heat with indoor day light 24/7. I know you attempted to answer this but told me the study was never done as far as you know. That is an acceptable answer but something is telling me the animals survival instincts would over ride the normal triggers and they wouldn't need the shortening days. I know you used the artificial light to discredit the moon. I'm thinking this test with light 24/7 might discredit your light theory also. LOT OF READING HERE BUT BOTTOM LINE IS THIS: My belief is that shortening days is one of many triggers but it has to correlate with ''X'' amount of lunar pulls throughout the year to actually trigger it IN WILD DEER . I may be wrong and I can put my pride aside and say I might be wrong or am willing to believe someone elses findings and studies. When one claims to be right 100 % of the time others will discredit them real quickly. (just ask my wife. lol) All in all TR I think you are very knowledgable on whitetails and I am not picking a fight. I just feel you have to give more credit to other experts and not just the ones that agree with you. You cannot make the claim that dark days fool bucks into moving early and then come back and say the rut will occur at the same time in a given area whether it is very very dark and cloudy vs bright days. Just my opinion . :wink:
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whether all this info is good, bad or indifferent i am enjoying the discussion
thanks :allright:
condescending twat
Someone who looks down on other people and is beyond arrogant
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You do not seem to understand the different "light" and "moon" factors (that may or may not affect deer activity) completely, therefore you are confusing some aspects of them necessary to this discussion.

Your argument about me being wrong about daytime deer movement and the timing of the rut - does not hold up - because you are confusing "the number of hours of light each day" (for the breeding activity) with the "intensity of the light" in the evening and morning (for the daily movement times). One of those concepts - does not affect the other.

I was not talking about the number of "hours" of daylight when I was talking about how deer "tell time" each day (because they do not wear a watch), which is based on the "intensity" of the light each day. The only way they have of knowing "when" it is (let's us the word safe) "safe" to go out and feed in the evening, is by the "intensity" of the light (my "available amount of light") when it gets close to sunset. Clouds can change what time "it appears to be", in relation to sunset - thereby "fooling" the deer into thinking it is later in the day than it is.

It is not the "intensity" of light that affects the rut, but rather the shortening "number of hours" of light each day.

Two totally different effects, that affect deer.


You stated, "You claim animals can feel the lunar pull yet you discredit the moon having anything to do with the rut. You claim other scientists are absolutely wrong that the moon triggers the rut because a deer can't see the full moon if it's cloudy."

No one, that I know of - has ever suggested that the gravitational pull of the moon - affects the rut... How did you come to this "rut and lunar pull" association? Where did you get this idea???

As far as I know only two "scientists", who work together (James Kroll and Ben Koerth), have ever stated that they believe the light of the moon affects the rut. But, when I told Ben Koerth (on the phone) that Karl Miller had done a study that proved them wrong, Ben said that Karl was probably right... So, that excludes them.

As far as I know neither Alsheimer of Jeff Murray, are deer biologists, or "scientists" of any form. Not sure about LaRouche.

So - what "scientists" are you referring to???

It is not that deer necessarily "see" the full moon that matters, it is the fact that there is often not enough moonlight available in November (due to cloudy skies, which reduce the "intensity" of the moon' light) - to affect the pineal gland of the deer.


God bless,

T.R.
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