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Big 3 hand out; whats your thought
Topic Started: Dec 6 2008, 07:45 AM (522 Views)
Posted Image dobber
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With all the news going on about the big 3 asking for financial help whats your thoughts on the request?
Please try to respect everyones opinion
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Posted Image Coyotechaser
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If the government does it for them, then they'd have to do it for everyone. I say they got themselves into it, they can get themselves out of it.

p.s. I do believe its got to do with the companies not running their business properly, leading to cut backs/layoffs/plant closures/etc.

Toyota is opening their brand new plant in woodstock soon, cost of 1.1 billion. I guess the automotive business is only bad for certain companies (the big 3). Actually, ford, gm and chrysler aren't the big 3 anymore, toyota became one of the "big 3" about a year ago.
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Posted Image Terrym
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I'm on the fence about this. Part of me says these companies have been mismanaged and produce products that don't reflect what the market wants anymore. If McDonalds served food nobody wanted would they deserve taxpayer's money? The unions are also to blame as they have stated flat out they won't take any concessions to save the company. Kind of sounds a bit like they feel "entitled" to a taxpayer funded bailout. What about all the other tens of thousands of recently laid off workers who will not get taxpayer funded aid to save their jobs? The auto sector has been rolling in huge money for decades with management making millions as well as labour making great money based on education and skills. The profits used to be enormous yet the companies didn't come to the government then and say " hey we're doing great we would be happy to pay our taxes did they"?
The other side of this argument is that the auto sector employs a huge amount of people and the associated service industries attached to it more again. It would cause a huge domino effect that would suck huge amounts of tax revenue out of government coffers. Well, if that happens the government has 2 choices. Either cut back services or run a deficit/raise taxes. None of these options are good for taxpayers. People don't realize that already 15% of all tax revenue goes to paying interest on the national debt. If that goes up due to irresponsible new deficits then less of your tax dollars will actually work for you and you "will" have reduced services and increased taxes.
Given the fact that they have arrogantly basically demanded the money without a corresponding new business plan to justify the money I think its throwing good money into the fire. Almost holding us hostage. Just delaying the inevitable as they will be back for more when that runs out. People hate the Japanese auto companies and say they are "foreign". That is total self serving union rhetoric as far as I'm concerned as US auto companies are foreign owned also and the profits leave the country also. Profit money flows to the USA instead of Japan. In the end I think even if it hurts for a while and recessions are no fun let's not kid ourselves I think the market should rule. Countries that try to nationalize industry tend to have way lower standards of living than we do here. We need to think 10-20-30 years down the road, not just the next 12 months. I'll get down off the soap box now.
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Shane
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not sure what the answer is, a lot of employees with the big 3. There is no way there are other jobs for all of them.
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Like all bad things, those companies should die. They will be replaced and life will go on. Why is socialism even considered? Everyone is spoiled and expects things handed to them. Short term pain is all it is. Let them suffer.
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Dinsdale
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Lots of jobs in Canada. Unemployment rate is 6.3% . Ideal is 7%.

The problem is there won't be jobs in Southern Ontario and they will have to re-skill to get jobs at anywhere similar pay.

No bailout = Bad for Ontario, good for Canada.
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Shane
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A loss of jobs isnt good for anything. How can a country run if everyone is on unemployment or welfare. Someone has to pay tax's to pay for all of this . In NWO our land and houses arent worth much because there are no jobs for anyone even concidering moving here. A buddy told me about a house in Ignace , Ontario that was sold for $30,000 it was a big house with a 2 stall garage attached. The guy sold it for that or it was leave it and get nothing. Yet in Fort Mac in Alberta the same house would be $450,000 to $500,000.
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My whole family has at one time lost our jobs in the Automotive Industry and sadly alot more people are gonna lose there jobs. there is alot of people in Ontario that are working on minimum wage for years and you never hear of them yet, yet everyone has there Timmy's before there $30 dollar an hour job. this gov't should wake up and do something about our jobs in Ontario. my last 2 cents, im broke.
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If a bailout would in fact work, and save hundreds of jobs, and save the smaller companies that provide parts to the auto makers, I'd be in favor of it. The fact of the matter is however, that they dont have a solid vision of the future or where they want to be. A bailout now only prolongs the inevitable.

I was in Mississippi this past week for work. Saw the new Toyota facility in Blue Springs. Nice! Toyota delayed opening it, to retool the facility. The Highlander was scheduled to be made there. Niow the Prius will be. There will be thousands of jobs there. No it wont be the $75 / hr fully blown package, but $40 / hr aint bad either.

The best thing that can happen to the big 3 is let them fall in Chapter 11 bankrupcy. No different than any other failing company. In Chapter 11 they can work through their problems while their business is somewhat protected frm creditors.
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Ringer44
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This is a tough one and one the congress is having a hard time with. Some good points already. the us economy lost 550,000 jobs in the month of November. letting the big three go down just simply isn't an option in my opinion at this time. Its not just the employees for Ford, GM and Chrysler, its all the ripple effect that will spill over into almost all areas of industry. This ripple effect will be felt well beyond the US borders. Something has to be done. This is some very scary times!
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I don't understand why people are against this, it's not like this is being done for the first time in history. Infact they did it for Chrysler back in 1979 and what the government paid them was paid back PLUS MORE. This is nothing lore than a loan that is to be repaid.

If just one of these companies go under it would be disasterous for not only the workers in the US and Canada but the retired workers out of there as they could lose their pensions. Over 15 million people in Canada and the US are emplyed by the Big 3 so just one gone would be bad.

As for Toyota, they are not ammune to this slump, all automakers are hurting right now. Toyota's sales for example are down 43%, Honda 35% and the list goes on. Toyota just held the grand openning for that woodstock plant, they hired 2000 initially but only 1200 are employed as they laid off one shift before it could even start. There are new homes in Woodstock only partially built with no plans to complete because of them only bringing in 1200.

Suzuki halted the production of their XL7 at Cami because of poor sales and then decided to build them in Japan and ship them over here after they are built. A nice way to support the Canadian economy....... :sick: :sick:

Last year for the first time in history we had an auto trade deficit with Japan, for every $1.00 worth of automotive stuff we exported we imported $135.00 worth of Automotive stuff. This is why we are hurting right now......

Until people realize that they need to support local and Canadian/US businesses our economy will continue to decline. Think about this, go into Walmart and try to find a T shirt that was made in Canada or the US. Nike Shoes, a US compnay that has their shoes made in Tywain.....

The reason for this is free trade, it is a good idea between US and Canada but with the rest of the world it is a bad idea. The auto pact used to protect us but Clinton and Chretian abolished this and look where we are.

Just my 2 cents

Drew

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Shane
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the price of gas this last year didnt help anything either.
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Posted Image dobber
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It might be too little too late but the big 3 and the unions have been working on a tier 2 wage system. This will certainly help with costs and savings.
A lot of middle management, upper management and on line workers will be removed and some replaced by either contractors or not at all.
I listened to a radio program a while ago and while many people will complain about the money the auto worker makes, they made mention of how much they also pay in taxes. To put it in perspective if 100,000 people who would be effected by the shutdowns and they all lost their jobs, using $100,000 as an easy math number as their yearly wage, at least $30,000 is paid out in taxes. Lets just say each of these people find new jobs that now pays them $50,000, once again to keep the math simple. It means a shortfall in taxes now of $1.5 billion which will then affect every person in Ontario with the government programs. (i fully understand that there is a maximum amount for CPP but this made the math simple)

If people are worried about whether the Canada Pension plan is in danger, it also means that that program will now lose the ongoing benefits of the auto workers putting money into it. A program where these same workers will not get the full pension due to the pension they will be getting from their union benefits. This will now mean that if it is to be safe for all people it will mean an increase in everyone elses pay deductions.

We all need to worry about what we want cause we just might get it.
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You are right Dobber with your assesment. Both my wife and I were auto workers and unfortunately our company (STerling Trucks) decided to move our operations to Mexico because it is cheaper to build them there. So another fine example of supporting the Canadian economy.

Your assesment of taxing an autoworker is correct, we are in a higher tax bracket and pay alot more taxes. Infact a guy that makes $10/hour less only brings home $300 less than me every 2 weeks.

The loss of taxes is going to be huge on both the Provincial and Federal governments.

Drew
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Plus the spin off jobs we support in the area, think of all the plumbers, electricians, house builders, ect that will suffer when a plant closes.
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I live just outside of Windsor, the ripple effects are astounding
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I worked for a tier 2 supplier in Windsor for 11 years. I left before they closed, thank god. Why didn't the big 3 bail them out, why didn't the gov'y bail them out? Because the CAW only care about those who make $30 an hour. I would never, ever work for the CAW again. They have no business plan to help any company do better. They only have their hand out for more money. Then they have the balls to tell the membership how they should vote! I had a few not so kind words with a rep about that. I would rather not vote than vote NDP!

Hargrove was bad for the autoworkers, as much as they say he did for them, now look where they are. Lewenza is worse, I have met him a few years ago. He is a 1st class A$$HOLE. He actually told us in a meeting that the CAW didn't work for the membership, we worked for him. There is a huge sense of entitlement in Windsor, I don't know about Oshawa. The CAW needs to make concessions, say a 20% pay cut. They would still be making way above the average salary.

The NHL had to make concessions, the CAW is next!

My 1 cent, the other would be taken by the CAW for "dues"
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Sharon
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Dec 6 2008, 10:32 AM
Lots of jobs in Canada. Unemployment rate is 6.3% . Ideal is 7%.

The problem is there won't be jobs in Southern Ontario and they will have to re-skill to get jobs at anywhere similar pay.

No bailout = Bad for Ontario, good for Canada.

Exactly.
By the way at 11PM last night, the unemployed rate was at 7 percent. I wouldn't say "ideal". I might say" tolerable" unless I was one of those people out of work.

If they don't do it , Ontario is ...........
( It believe it will definately be done in the States.)

Then again, the East Coast Provinces have suffered for years with an Unemployment rate in the teens. Maybe it's our turn.

PS I'm an Adult Ed. teacher when I'm not in jail , and the province is already gearing up for an influx of out of work people needing to get their diploma / GED etc.
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I and 60% in the US say No to bailout.

Let them file bankrupcy and then a Bankrupcy Judge will order them to restructure their companies, so then if they really want to save their companies management and labor will work it out, and they'll may survive.

But I'll bet as soon as Obama takes over the big 3 will get whatever they want. It's called Union payback. Then they can give themselves all a pay raise, more benifits, and pay for it building pricey Hy-breds that few want. ( hy-bred sales are down 50%)
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If they want money then they should bring back plants that are related to them back into this country and then and only then will they get help.
None of this BS. about re-tooling and then start begging for more money down the road again.... :boxing:
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Magna just announced a plant closure in Aurora, curiously though the plant in Mexico is not closing. The auto manufacturers have been moving production away from the high wages of Canada & the USA as fast as they can get away with it, even before the economic slump. McGinty gave millions to Ford about a year ago and they turned around and closed plants anyway. I'm all for stimulating the economy but just throwing money at the wall to see what sticks is not going to help us.
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They are also closing the plant in Newmarket, we just lost a similar plant in Leamington, another one or two Magna plants out East (NB or NS) are going to be shutting the doors

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This is not good.Every auto worker = 5 off shoot jobs.The plants pay big taxes to the cities,the employees pay big taxes.It's effects every aspect of our economy.Housing prices are going way down.The places that have gone up for sale around here is unreal.
I've been given a forgiveable load and grants over the years by the goverment.If I fault on my obligations.I have to pay 8% interest from day one plus interest on the interest.I'm sure any load would be structured the same.I would expected they want guarnteed jobs in return for the loans.Brent j..
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:boxing: We have been told by the company many times that the cost of labour to produce a new car is 7% of the total price. :boxing:

So we as auto workers aren't going to take the brunt of the downfall of a companys mismanaged agenda.They have to take a look at what got themselves into this mess.

After our contract was opened and negotiated EARLY this year.
We as the CAW will be saveing the "big 3" ;) 300 milion dollars US.in consesions.
Over the life of the contract(3 years)


So dont say "it's the high payed workers that brought this on" :readytorock:

I hate hearing this F*****G BS that it"s the workers and ther hourly rate.

Ken

a proud CAW member.

Remember........The so called "Big 3 " are and always be American companys.
Canada is just a profitable place to build cars.(the dollar at 80 cents,health care,government hand outs)

Don't kid yourself if it wasn't profiable to build the cars here in Ontario they wouldn't do it.Just like they have done in Mexico.

Unfortunatly It's all about the bottom line. :moderator:
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unclefester
Dec 6 2008, 11:50 PM
:boxing: We have been told by the company many times that the cost of labour to produce a new car is 7% of the total price. :boxing:

So we as auto workers aren't going to take the brunt of the downfall of a companys mismanaged agenda.They have to take a look at what got themselves into this mess.

After our contract was opened and negotiated EARLY this year.
We as the CAW will be saveing the "big 3" ;) 300 milion dollars US.in consesions.
Over the life of the contract(3 years)


So dont say "it's the high payed workers that brought this on" :readytorock:

I hate hearing this F*****G BS that it"s the workers and ther hourly rate.

Ken

a proud CAW member.

Remember........The so called "Big 3 " are and always be American companys.
Canada is just a profitable place to build cars.(the dollar at 80 cents,health care,government hand outs)

Don't kid yourself if it wasn't profiable to build the cars here in Ontario they wouldn't do it.Just like they have done in Mexico.

Unfortunatly It's all about the bottom line. :moderator:

A lot of it does have to do with the pay that workers get, hence why they move to Mexico where wages are much lower than in Canada/US.

And as far as the big 3 being an American company, well they are as American as all the other auto manufacturers I guess. Once these companies went on the stock exchange, people from all over the world "own" them........and a lot aren't Americans.
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I get a kick outta these licence plate covers I see that says somehting to the effect "buy domestic or eat an import"! lol))) lol))) lol)))

I agree to that 100%, thats why I drive a Honda, built right here in Ontario (Alliston). The last import I owned was built in Mexico.....it was a Sunfire.
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Question...............why aren't Toyota and Honda unionized? Anyone know?

Ford/GM/Chrysler are all companies that have the CAW representing their employees, and all three are standing in line waiting for handouts from the government.

Toyota/Honda have no unions, and aren't asking for a cent?

Weird 'eh? Kinda makes ya wonder?
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Extreme
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Maybe the guys at Toyota and Honda are well paid as it is and a great benefit package to boot-Who could ask for more lol)))

Excuse me for saying this but I have always believed that bringing in a Union is greed,wanting more when you are probably already getting enough as it is.
It does protect the lazy workers to I suppose (;
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Honda and Toyota have always been non union, their pay rate and benefits are somewhat equal with the unionized plants.
The Unions had/have their place and as long as the union rep within the plant understands the rules and follows them they are a good thing. Every 3 years they negotiate and the company can claw back if they decide to fight that fight, normally they choose not to. I have talked to enough union presidents and vice presidents to ask the question, "What do you want?" the answer is always the same "more".
Its like blaming the hockey player for being paid $10m a year, all he did was ask, no one has to pay it. When someone decides not to pay, everyone needs to be on the same page and perhaps things will turn around.
Tier 2 wages is new here and will be happening, more subcontractors will be out there taking over different jobs.
CC, i hear ya about the bumper stickers, see enough of them on the PT cruiser which is made in Mexico.
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Interestingly as you say dobber many cars aren't made where people think they are. Many Honda and Toyota cars are Ontario or US made. Many Volvo & VW cars are mexican made. My last car was a Toyota camry V6 XLE which was manufactured in Japan ( V6 XLE's come from Japan or at least did in those days ) and even the Toyota dealer admitted there was a noticeable quality difference and reliability difference between it and the domestic ones. In 275,000 kms the only money put into that car was routine maintenance and brakes lasted over 120K per set. Not a single thing ever failed not even a headlight.
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heres a question, would you buy a Dodge minivan or the new VW minivan? both fairly similar vehicles. Reason i ask is that both vehicles are made in the same plant by the same workers, yet one could be considered an import.
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My understanding is that new VW is basically a dodge so I would get a dodge and likely get the exact same engineering and quality control as the VW for less money.
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Toyota has overtaken GM in sales.

Funny how Toyota has done this with 1500 dealerships in the US and GM has/had 7000 dealerships.

Just another sign of GM mismanagement . But throw 35 billion at the Big 3, and Toyota better look out ? lol)))
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Coyotechaser
Dec 7 2008, 12:21 AM
Question...............why aren't Toyota and Honda unionized? Anyone know?


Toyota and Honda are not unionized YET !!! There are people in there that are organizing union drives but before they can hold a vote they need a certain amount of cards signed. This has been all over the news in the past and infact there are websites devoted just to these drives.

What you have to take into consideration is the workers at Honda and Toyota are well paid and have a good benifit package but this is not because the company is generous, it is because of the CAW and what they have done at the big 3.

If Toyota or Honda only paid them 1/2 of what someone made at the big 3 then the workers would rally and bring in the CAW or any other union. So that is why they are well paid.

Soon all plants will be down in mexico. They pay them 2.25/hour and they work like pigs. How can we compete with that? They work 8 hours and barely make enough to buy a 12 pack of beer up here.

Drew
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I can see if a auto plant was sh!tting as plain as day on the people then go ahead put a union in... but if they have no union and are within considerable range of a union plant then leave well enough alone. If the employee's start to jack their plant around... then they'll see what happens because there will be ramifications to deal with in the long run.
The next time you walk into your plants you take a look at the floor and you'll see that every piece of machinery is just "BOLTED" down.
I was in a factory at one time as many others were too, and now I'm not.....
Don't give the "Big Three" anything"...
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Obama has basically announced that he will not let the Big 3 go down. Its just too important a part of the economy down there never mind the blow to the American ego. So, this being the case the Canadian Government will also be bailing out the the Big 3 here. So when you go into a car dealer to dicker price it will be with someone who in part is paid with your tax dollars.
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tell us how you really feel Annie , lol
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I myself worry more for my father and th emany like him who depend on his pension from G.M. It really sucks that a man who worked hard for 41 years has to wonder if his pension will last him. I work in a factory, not automotive, and would have to say that one of th emany reasons we are still in Canada is the fact we are not unionized. The only plant in the corpuration, not the only factor but one of many. We are also the highest paid yet have the lowest cost, top safety record and various othe rthings helping to keep us running. As much as it pains me as I live in Oshawa and come from a G.M. it's thier own fault and now it's hard to dig out. Up to 8-10 years ago the vehicles were not to par with imports but the sad thing is they are building some really great vehicles now but people will not even look at them anymore. I have friends with all kind of imports and they have issues too but the dealer service they get is so much better. That is th enumber one thing that drives me crazy about G.M dealers. They look at your miliage and tell you what needs to be replaced. I look right back at them and say I'll tell you when it needs to be replaced. Brakes every 30,000k is a joke, when th ewear indicators tell me to have a look I will. My rant is over.

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Shane
Dec 8 2008, 10:41 AM
tell us how you really feel Annie , lol

Well you see Shane....it's like this....blah blah blah...lol.... :D
<bottomleft><b>AS A MATTER OF FACT, I DO HUNT LIKE A GIRL!!</b>


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Bottom line is, even though less and less people are buying their (Big 3)vehicles.
They're still going to get our money.
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