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GM new ad; typical auto workers mentality
Topic Started: Dec 17 2008, 10:22 AM (495 Views)
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Man there is so much truth in that. :( :( :( :(

Rick
Chevy Trucks, Black Widow bows, Sako rifles and my grandkids.
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Posted Image Terrym
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Bradford Ont

Speaking as a guy with "no" government or corporate pension plans I find it pretty offensive that my tax dollars are going to assist others in securing theirs. I also have a problem with going into a dealership to buy a car knowing that my tax dollars are also keeping them employed. If my industry tanks the CAW will not be trying to help me out.
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shedherder
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Seen on TV last night if the big 3 tanks Canada will lose 600,000 jobs. These people right now are paying 3.6 million dollars per hour in taxes. (rough estimate at $ 6 per hour). Then there product is taxed again to make even more revenue. Where will all this tax money come from ?
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Posted Image ricoh
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I hear ya Terry. When the dollar went way up it just killed our industry. We had a bunch of layoffs because we lost so many job orders. Nobody bailed us out. We weathered the storm and now that the dollar is back down we are expecting our biggest year ever next year. Over the years our union has made concessions to keep everyone employed and help the company secure orders. I have and continue to make a very nice living (38 yrs) only being laid off one time for a 2 week period. These people are holding us for ransom and never intend to make any concessions to keep their jobs and their companies afloat. There needs to be a rude awakening and I do believe it is coming.

Rick
Chevy Trucks, Black Widow bows, Sako rifles and my grandkids.
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Posted Image nubo


I don't even want to think about that.


nubo
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Posted Image dufus
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i can see where you all are coming from........but reread shedhearders post.......this affect's alot more than just the actuall big three auto plants. plants across the board will be hurt by this and it will mean astomical #'s in lost tax dollars..............probably in the gov'ts(and us) best interest to help them out than lose the tax money from many different levels plus pay out a wack of employment insurance. i think if one was to sit down and count the numbers there would be a big eye opener as to what us as a province would lose if the auto industry was to crash.

Scott :cheers:


and just another thought...........it makes me feel better to help out the ones who want to work and pay taxes than to shell out the billions that it takes to keep the ones who don't give a rats ass and would rather sit at home and laugh at us for paying them to do so.
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Posted Image fishnhunt
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The North shore of L. Erie

I can feel my blood pressure rising!!! I'm with Terrym.
The big three dug there own hole and the union helped them dig it with a real big
back hoe. Alot of these empoyees view layoffs as a fully paid holiday, they could
care less. Dozens of weeks off a year and I'm paying for it making a fraction of
what they make. Give me a break, where's my buy out when I'm in a tight spot?
If the big three go down there will be someone there to fill there shoes. Job losses
will be there, but will be quickly filled as the competition increases production.


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Posted Image Brooke
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Hanover, Ontario.

I am all for helping out. But why do they need my money, I already bought a new truck.

My opinion is they should cut taxes to corporations. No way should they get a hand out. If they all get a tax break, and I mean all, not just big three, they can save money and jobs. I also think we should increase income tax, if every one of those 517 000 people that would lose their jobs would pay another $100 a year in income tax that would be $51 700 000! That's a lot of money, If it meant saving my job for $100 a year I would be all over it!
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Posted Image dufus
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Eagle Lake(Haliburton)

it will take alot of time to fill almost 600 000 jobs by competition that is for the most part overseas.


as i said i can see where you are coming from and i myself have to ask why taxpayers have to bail out big company's that should be able to look after themselves. Unions seved the "worker"(and themselves) well for years now. So well that such a big revenue comes out of the industry that as a province we are are pretty well dependent on it as far as our economy goes.

It's a shame that a better way couldn't be found to save this sector of our economy but i for one can't see a better way. Such a drastic blow to our employment status i think would be traumatic and would take years to recover from. The auto industry goes way deeper than we can fathom.


Scott :cheers:

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Posted Image dufus
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Eagle Lake(Haliburton)

Brooke..........How does giving the government more money save thier jobs...............unless your talking about paying back a loan?????

Are you also saying ..........give the big guy a break and stick it to the little guy?


Scott
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Sen. Barney Frank slipped up last Sunday night on "60 Minutes" when asked if this bailout was nothing more than welfare, and for once he told the truth about the big 3 bailout. He said "it is welfare".

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Posted Image dobber
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i live the life on both ends, the CAW is working towards a tier 2 wage so they understand the cuts need to happen. Might be a little late but they are working with the companies.
The banks just got a $350B hand out with no mention of loans, now one of these same banks just handed out a crap load of bonus's. Least the big 3 are looking at paying the money back.

The UAW made cuts and concessions last year with not just a tier 2 wage but also a tier 3 wage as well.
Things in the big 3 plants are getting better with cost cutting, over management reductions, automation and cutting the fat as it were. I live it every day and see the change, just hope its not too late
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Bradford Ont

No government is going to let the auto sector fall, just too big a part of the economy. At the end of the day nomatter how much money they lend/grant the auto sector unless they bring out products that people want to buy then they are doomed and our money invested is lost. After all these companies are in the predicament they are because people aren't buying their cars, simple as that.
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Hit the nail right on the head!
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority,and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a bowel movement by the clean end

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My god guys, this is not a handout. It is nothing more than a loan that has to be paid back and as for the government using your tax money maybe just sit back for a minute and think about it. The autoworkers have contributed this money 10x over so in reality they are using thier own money if you want to think about it that way. Employee's of the big 3 pay over 7 billion per year in federal tax here in Canada. That's just what they take off our pay checks every year.

That is 7 billion that is taken from us, the auto workers and used to benifit people all across Canada. Now it is us that are hurting and this is the reaction we get.....

UN FRIGGEN BELIEVABLE
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Terrym
Dec 17 2008, 07:50 PM
. After all these companies are in the predicament they are because people aren't buying their cars, simple as that.

People are not buying cars/trucks because of the credit crisis. They have lost on average 25% of their sales due to this. The financing is simply not there.
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Posted Image dobber
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there are too many people to point a finger at and i think all are willing to share the blame and get the fix in place. Like both DD and i posted, it is a loan to be paid back unlike the handout the banks got.

condescending twat
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DDRetrievers
Dec 17 2008, 09:00 PM
My god guys, this is not a handout. It is nothing more than a loan that has to be paid back and as for the government using your tax money maybe just sit back for a minute and think about it. The autoworkers have contributed this money 10x over so in reality they are using thier own money if you want to think about it that way. Employee's of the big 3 pay over 7 billion per year in federal tax here in Canada. That's just what they take off our pay checks every year.

That is 7 billion that is taken from us, the auto workers and used to benifit people all across Canada. Now it is us that are hurting and this is the reaction we get.....

UN FRIGGEN BELIEVABLE

I beg to differ, the tax money that was paid is to run the country, not act as a line of credit/debit card to withdraw from when the cash in your wallet gets low.
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority,and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a bowel movement by the clean end

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Posted Image Brooke
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Hanover, Ontario.

Dufus, I don't think giving a tax break to a company is giving the gov't money. It is simply saving the company money that they would normaly have to pay the gov't. The corporations spend a lot in health care etc. Cutting them a break would ease the stress of our current economic crisis. I would hardly call $100 sticking it to the little guy, especially if that little guy is a grade 12 grad making $120 000. Since the gov't can't afford to lose that much money it could easily be made up from those people whose jobs are saved.

I would gladly pay another $100 a year to kep my job. It's a lot better than losing your job and tryig to live off EI. The tax cuts would be dependant on the corporations being more financially prudent, ie selling off company jets, cutting bonuses etc.

The bigger point here is that people have to come up with different ideas. Throwing good money after bad makes no sense at all. We need to think outside the box. I would love to hear other people's ideas, not just yay or nay to the "loan" or "bailout"
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DDRetrievers
Dec 17 2008, 09:02 PM
Terrym
Dec 17 2008, 07:50 PM
. After all these companies are in the predicament they are because people aren't buying their cars, simple as that.

People are not buying cars/trucks because of the credit crisis. They have lost on average 25% of their sales due to this. The financing is simply not there.

I think part of the reason they got themselves into this fix is because of an overpriced, low quality vehicles that they produce. Regardless of any low interest rate they like to dangle in front of my face like a carrot in front of the donkey, I won't buy a big 3 product again.....EVER! In 2004 I bought a civic (after I smashed up my sunfire) and today I have over 214,000 kms on it. No problems as far as quality goes, thats why we got the 2009 Pilot. We are paying a lot more as far as interest goes, but its worth the quality I know I'm getting.
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority,and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a bowel movement by the clean end

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Coyotechaser
Dec 17 2008, 08:27 PM
I beg to differ, the tax money that was paid is to run the country, not act as a line of credit/debit card to withdraw from when the cash in your wallet gets low.

So then I assume you are pissed off that the Canadian Goverment spent 75 billion and bought mortgages to free up the credit market? After all that 75 Billion was your and my tax money that they took from us to run the country? Why are there no posts on this then? After all that is over 10 times more than they are going to give to the big 3....


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i am one of those subcontractors in the auto industry who supplies the big 3 (and more) a cheaper way to do business. We pay a good wage and have been growing bigger and bigger every time the cuts are made. Within the last year we have taken over about 150 jobs, for every one taken it was replaced with a tier 2 wage CAW worker. We are likely going to reach the same type of numbers again in 2009, cost savings are huge and both the big 3 and the CAW are on board. This shows a working relationship and a willingness to work for a common goal
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Coyotechaser
Dec 17 2008, 08:32 PM
I think part of the reason they got themselves into this fix is because of an overpriced, low quality vehicles that they produce. Regardless of any low interest rate they like to dangle in front of my face like a carrot in front of the donkey, I won't buy a big 3 product again.....EVER! In 2004 I bought a civic (after I smashed up my sunfire) and today I have over 214,000 kms on it. No problems as far as quality goes, thats why we got the 2009 Pilot. We are paying a lot more as far as interest goes, but its worth the quality I know I'm getting.

So whats your point? I have 191 000kms on my 2004 Ford F150 and the only thing I have ever put into it is maintance items. My 1990 Chev Z-71 had over 300 000 on it and no serious issues.

As a former mechanic I have fixed just as many Honda's and Toyota's as I did Ford and Chevy's. I have put engines and tranny's in Accords, Civics, Nissans and the list goes on.... If it is man made it will break. plain and simple. As the owners of the new tundra's, poor fuel milage, poor quality.....
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Posted Image Brooke
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Hanover, Ontario.

Everybody has their preferance as to favourite makes and models. I bought 3 GM vehicles and the last time I was treated like garbage. It will be a miracle if I ever buy a GM again. The last 2 Gms I had were duds, recalls and stupid problems over and over. I'm sure people can say the sae about Chrysler and Ford as well as Honda and Toyota.
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My wife and I decided to buy a 2009 Toyota and we'll never buy a Ford, Chrysler or Gm product again.....
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on my 3rd F150, put on just over 400k on the first and 330k on the second
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DDRetrievers
Dec 17 2008, 10:35 PM
Coyotechaser
Dec 17 2008, 08:27 PM
I beg to differ, the tax money that was paid is to run the country, not act as a line of credit/debit card to withdraw from when the cash in your wallet gets low.

So then I assume you are pissed off that the Canadian Goverment spent 75 billion and bought mortgages to free up the credit market? After all that 75 Billion was your and my tax money that they took from us to run the country? Why are there no posts on this then? After all that is over 10 times more than they are going to give to the big 3....

the reason there is not talk on the government in buying out morgages is they were already garrenteed by the government to be paid .. the government did the right thing ... they might as well get the intrest on the loans than the bank.... your statement does not make sence......and further more to get the big three out of there problem.... the econonomical people say the figure will be 150 billion to completely save the auto sector .... thats twice the amount of the loans
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tizbass
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Here is another side to the story.
Subject: FW: Incredible editorial from a Dealer in the Pittsburgh Region


A very well written letter that is worth a read and to send to your friends and family as well as their government reps.

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Editor:

As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.

When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.

Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.

When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.

Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.

It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.

Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama 's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.

After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!

We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.

Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.

The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?

As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.

So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.

So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit . Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way.

Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson

Elkins

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good read
condescending twat
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HERE HERE


nubo
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Lol,I wonder what the public reaction would be if the Banks said no more morgage loans.Brent j..
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Alces
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Glad the Feds and the province have stepped up for the car industry, now if we could get them to pay a little attention to the fate of all the single industry towns in the North that are tanking along with our paper and lumber mills . I don't seem to recall any loan guarantees or bailout money here.
To quote the Boss" These jobs are goin son and they ain't comin back"

Alces
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