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600,000 off reserve natives recognized; Same benefits as on reserve?
Topic Started: Jan 8 2013, 10:40 AM (2,868 Views)
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Cause he wasn't driving a "smart" car for carrying all of the traditional equipment needed for hunting or fishing, not to mention "conservation / preservation" knowledge of Mother Earth's concerns.

:crazy:
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CanuckShooter
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revrnd
Jan 18 2013, 11:27 AM
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Jan 16 2013, 08:39 AM
I have heard and read many times that first nations feel they are caretakers of the land, that they were a peaceful society before we came and I have had some tell be that they were always here in the america's.

If the FN feel they have more of a connection w/ the land & water than the rest of us & are indeed caretakers of "mother earth", why did a member of the Curve Lake reserve abandon a Suburban in the middle of nowhere several miles from Highway 28?

During the middle of the snowmobiling season we found a older Suburban @ the intersection of the Pencil Lake & Hadlington roads. There was a couple of feet of snow around it. The truck was unlocked & the registration was in the glovebox. The owner's address was @ Curve Lake. Passed the paperwork on to the OPP in Apsley.

OMGosh....one man leaves a broken down truck in the bush and his entire race takes the heat for it?? What shallow thinking.
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Rebel Soul


Oh boy.

Not this fn s-h-i-t again.
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Renegade
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LoneWolf
Jan 18 2013, 06:49 PM
Oh boy.

Not this fn s-h-i-t again.

I think the FN brought this discussion on themselves. Feel free to discuss the issues. Not talking about it and pretending it will go away by itself is certainly not going to help FN.
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Posted Image LoneWolf
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Talking about it, is one thing. But when all of FN gets bashed, it's another thing.

Oh and BTW... I too, pay my taxes.
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Renegade
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LoneWolf
Jan 18 2013, 07:02 PM
Talking about it, is one thing. But when all of FN gets bashed, it's another thing.

Oh and BTW... I too, pay my taxes.

I think the thread on the topic has been quite civil. We will remove outright bashing from the forum like we always do. We haven't had to remove a post yet.
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CanuckShooter
Jan 16 2013, 02:56 PM
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Jan 16 2013, 08:39 AM
CanuckShooter
Jan 15 2013, 11:16 PM
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Jan 14 2013, 01:04 PM
Canada's First Nations Debate - Globe & Mail.

This land does NOT belong to them.
Why do some people keep saying that it does?
Is it because that's what they want you to believe?
Well then the marketing campaign must be working.

Let's get this straight...

1. These people's ancestors did not just appear in North America
magically out of thin air one day 50,000 years ago.
They came in waves across the land/ice bridge from Asia .
What's more these waves in many case were not related groups of people.
They came from various places around North Eastern Asia and were from different genetic strains....
in other words the "natives of North America are not a homogenous group of people and more importantly....
They are immigrants too, like millions of immigrants today.

2. The idea that the "natives" were peaceful caretakers of the land or benevolent tenants couldn't
be further from the truth. The various tribes warred on each other constantly.
They were violent.
Want proof?
Ask the Huron's...oh that's right you can't.
The Iroquois wiped them out.
How about slavery that was rife among the first nation tribes until the Europeans came over
and freed the slaves and put an end to this "valued cultural tradition"?
Is slavery peaceful and humane?

3. The idea that we "stole" this land from them is also ridiculous.
A more technologically advanced and numerous culture invaded and conquered.
This is exactly what has been happening since the dawn of humanity all around the globe.
To say we "stole" their lands is just plain wrong.
That is akin to saying the Saxons should return England to the Angles.
Or maybe we should launch a campaign to have Roman descendants give Italy back to the Etruscans.

It is a nonsensical notion driven by the politically correct bleeding hearts on the left
and some intellectually deficient liberals, and it will continue to cost this country needless
and wasted billions and billions until we get some backbone and turn off the taps.

Are these people in trouble?
Yes.
Do they need help?
Yes.
Are they responsible enough to look after themselves and efficiently
spend the billions the tax payers give them?
Certainly not.

The only way to fix this situation is to bring them into society as equals.
They should be getting jobs and paying taxes like the rest of us because in reality,
they are no more special than any of the other hundred or more cultures that call Canada home.

Turn off the taps.
Do away with this "traditional use" and "cultural" nonsense.
Educate their children to become modern citizens, instead of finding their identity and
source of pride in some folks who occupied the land 15000 years ago.
Let them stand or fall on their own account

I don't know how many times I've seen this absolutely disgusting garbage spread on the Internet!!!
:-(.

It doesn't matter "who was here first"...anyone educated in this country should know this, if you don't then go find out why they signed treaties with the people that were living here back then.

Kenniwick was found in Washington State, Norse people lived here once...it's the known history of the expansion of the human race in the America's.....and it has diddly squat to do with native status and treaties.

Of course you don't like this Canuckshooter. You have been against any type of discussion that would dare to challenge the status quo. I have heard and read many times that first nations feel they are caretakers of the land, that they were a peaceful society before we came and I have had some tell be that they were always here in the america's.

Instead of saying that that whole article is garbage, why not bring up some solid points as to why you think it is garbage.

I did already....it's doesn't matter 'who was here first'...

The rest of it doesn't even justify a response because the vast majority of it is just designed to foster more anti native sentiment.

Lets look a little closer at number 3:

3. The idea that we "stole" this land from them is also ridiculous.
A more technologically advanced and numerous culture invaded and conquered.
This is exactly what has been happening since the dawn of humanity all around the globe.
To say we "stole" their lands is just plain wrong.




1. History lessons told us that the Metis had settlements along the Red River...when they came home from the buffalo hunt white settlers had moved onto their land and displaced them....stolen lands no doubt.

2. History lessons taught us that the vast majority of the Bands in British Columbia have no treaties signed....expropriation without compensation? or stolen lands? or just unceded territory because they are still negotiating??

3. How many different Bands of aboriginals are there in Canada?? How many lessons did you get in school that taught us "a more technologically advanced and numerous culture invaded and conquered"?? OR, how many actual armed conflicts between aboriginals groups and government troops actually happened in Canadian history in relation to the number of aboriginal groups?


This is some of our proud history of how aboriginals were treated in Canada...you could type till your fingers bled with this type of REAL history....but here is just a little for your reading pleasure.

Catholic priests and nuns sexually assaulted, beat, and separated aboriginal children from their families for years. Aboriginal people were not permitted to vote until the 1950s. Natives resident on reserves were required to have permission slips from the 'indian agent' to leave the reserves. [containment camps?] at least up until 1932. For a time in Canada it was illegal for natives to hold a potlatch or pow wow...and they could be jailed for dancing. Natives that chose to fight for Canada in WWII had to give up their 'indian status' in order to join the Canadian Forces. When they returned to Canada after the war they were not provided the same housing and benefit opportunities that non-natives were because of their race.


The point is....the status quo is the law of our land....and some of our laws are there due to the gross and inhumane treatment Canadas aboriginal endured over the years. We were educated about all of this, and discussion on aboriginal issues shouldn't be focused on creating more misconceptions and spreading more lies.

Everyone in Canada should be damn thankful that we live in such a great country... Are neighbours to the south handled things a little different and god knows what would the world would be like if the 'history' never panned out like it did. Also catholicism throughout the world has caused these such disgusting acts world wide... I would not hold the average canadian responsible for there actions. What happen in the past is history we should all beaware of the past. Canada doesn't have the best past and many different cultures have been persecuted... moving forward what should we do? What would it take to right a wrong? It seems a monetary value is always works..... but I always hear its not about that! Many differrent cultures have built this country to where its at today and last time I checked we r all gentically related.... :CanFlag:
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revrnd
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CanuckShooter
Jan 18 2013, 03:50 PM
revrnd
Jan 18 2013, 11:27 AM
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Jan 16 2013, 08:39 AM
I have heard and read many times that first nations feel they are caretakers of the land, that they were a peaceful society before we came and I have had some tell be that they were always here in the america's.

If the FN feel they have more of a connection w/ the land & water than the rest of us & are indeed caretakers of "mother earth", why did a member of the Curve Lake reserve abandon a Suburban in the middle of nowhere several miles from Highway 28?

During the middle of the snowmobiling season we found a older Suburban @ the intersection of the Pencil Lake & Hadlington roads. There was a couple of feet of snow around it. The truck was unlocked & the registration was in the glovebox. The owner's address was @ Curve Lake. Passed the paperwork on to the OPP in Apsley.

OMGosh....one man leaves a broken down truck in the bush and his entire race takes the heat for it?? What shallow thinking.

My family has been told by a native in our own home (uninvited) that all the land behind us (patented) "Is ours". The person is in his early 50s, went thru school here in central Ontario w/ my friends. He hasn't held a steady job (not sure if he is working now or not) in years. As far as I'm concerned the only reason for his situation is himself. He had just as many opportunities as my friends. Don't blame the ROC.

That being said I worked w/ a machinist that was native off & on over 28 years. I never minded helping him out and if he didn't know how to do something, he was ready to learn. Unfortunately his cancer came back & he passed away before his retirement. Anyone who knew him, enjoyed being around him. You're missed Chief.
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reddfoxx
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I get a little confused trying to understand the Metis issue.

I understand that the original native people claim (perhaps rightfully so) that they were here first. Then along comes the white European. They meet up with, fight and eventually share and trade with the native people. White guys probably hunted, trapped and lived a pretty free lifestyle. Then a few of the french Europeans tangled up with some native people and there were mixed blood children born. They called themselves (or were called) Metis.

How come those people who, were the results of mixing of blood after European arrival, claim to have more rights than the European who was here before them and.... if it wasn't for the European influence..they might not be here at all?

I think the European decendants should have more rights than the Metis. If I can trace my ancestory back to pre-Metis times in North America, shouldn't my rights supercede theirs?

Redd :shy:
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revrnd
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HBC was formed in 1670. The North West Co' began in 1779. So I imagine there was little or no contact w/ Europeans before 1670 in present day northern Ontario & western Canada.

Peter C. Newman has written 2 books on the fur trade.

A History of the Hudson Bay Company: Volume One: Company of Adventurers

A History of the Hudson Bay Company: Volume Two: Caesars of the Wilderness

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CanuckShooter
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reddfoxx
Jan 21 2013, 08:57 PM
I get a little confused trying to understand the Metis issue.

I understand that the original native people claim (perhaps rightfully so) that they were here first. Then along comes the white European. They meet up with, fight and eventually share and trade with the native people. White guys probably hunted, trapped and lived a pretty free lifestyle. Then a few of the french Europeans tangled up with some native people and there were mixed blood children born. They called themselves (or were called) Metis.

How come those people who, were the results of mixing of blood after European arrival, claim to have more rights than the European who was here before them and.... if it wasn't for the European influence..they might not be here at all?

I think the European decendants should have more rights than the Metis. If I can trace my ancestory back to pre-Metis times in North America, shouldn't my rights supercede theirs?

Redd :shy:

""If I can trace my ancestory back to pre-Metis times in North America, shouldn't my rights supercede theirs?""



Is that why the Metis have rights? Or do they have rights because mainstream Canadian politicians recognized them as 'aboriginal' in our Constitution?
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reddfoxx
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I think you are right about the constitution thing.

But if Europeans have been here longer than the first Metis, (because Metis are a product of First Nations people and Euiropean) how come we lose out?

This baffles me

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Jan 18 2013, 05:09 PM
LoneWolf
Jan 18 2013, 07:02 PM
Talking about it, is one thing. But when all of FN gets bashed, it's another thing.

Oh and BTW... I too, pay my taxes.

I think the thread on the topic has been quite civil. We will remove outright bashing from the forum like we always do. We haven't had to remove a post yet.

I have some question. Who exactly review's and removes the posts? Are these people impartial, seeing past the rhetoric? Can they recognize discrimination to others, other then themselves? There are ways of answering around my questions but I am trying to be straight forward and hope the answer is honest enough.
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reddfoxx
Jan 22 2013, 09:28 PM
I think you are right about the constitution thing.

But if Europeans have been here longer than the first Metis, (because Metis are a product of First Nations people and Euiropean) how come we lose out?

This baffles me

Redd

I am sure the First Nation's people had a say in the Metis getting recognized in some similarities as the government understood and agreed.
.
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bushbuck
Jan 23 2013, 10:24 AM
Renegade
Jan 18 2013, 05:09 PM
LoneWolf
Jan 18 2013, 07:02 PM
Talking about it, is one thing. But when all of FN gets bashed, it's another thing.

Oh and BTW... I too, pay my taxes.

I think the thread on the topic has been quite civil. We will remove outright bashing from the forum like we always do. We haven't had to remove a post yet.

I have some question. Who exactly review's and removes the posts? Are these people impartial, seeing past the rhetoric? Can they recognize discrimination to others, other then themselves? There are ways of answering around my questions but I am trying to be straight forward and hope the answer is honest enough.

We try to be impartial when it comes to removing topics and posts. It has been a long long time since we have removed, edited or deleted anything on the forum. But it does come up from time to time.

We have mods and admin here and we make these decisions as a group. We take this pretty seriously. We also have to temper moderation with a certain amount of allowable free speach.

If you have an issue with any posts made on the forum and feel that they are racist then certainly pm any moderator or admin to look at this issue and provide you with an answer to your question. We can't be everywhere on the forum or see everything. Thanks for your feedback.

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This shows the double standards of policing in canada... i cant believe they said what they said with the cameras rolling could just imagine what they would have said or done when no cameras... i am very pro police but this is just f ing stupid


http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/feature...2#2109745140001
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trophy
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CanuckShooter
Jan 22 2013, 12:09 PM
reddfoxx
Jan 21 2013, 08:57 PM
I get a little confused trying to understand the Metis issue.

I understand that the original native people claim (perhaps rightfully so) that they were here first. Then along comes the white European. They meet up with, fight and eventually share and trade with the native people. White guys probably hunted, trapped and lived a pretty free lifestyle. Then a few of the french Europeans tangled up with some native people and there were mixed blood children born. They called themselves (or were called) Metis.

How come those people who, were the results of mixing of blood after European arrival, claim to have more rights than the European who was here before them and.... if it wasn't for the European influence..they might not be here at all?

I think the European decendants should have more rights than the Metis. If I can trace my ancestory back to pre-Metis times in North America, shouldn't my rights supercede theirs?

Redd :shy:

""If I can trace my ancestory back to pre-Metis times in North America, shouldn't my rights supercede theirs?""



Is that why the Metis have rights? Or do they have rights because mainstream Canadian politicians recognized them as 'aboriginal' in our Constitution?

Actually Canuck Shooter, they are right ,Metis first got their rights because they were settled with traditional hunting areas before Canada was born.
Now with the new ruling Metis people are now Indians.

Settlers should get the same right to sustanance.
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Posted Image LeGrand
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a great-great-great aunt of mine was Indian, so that would make me Métis.

Just can't prove it, since her maidem name was never recognised on her mariage certificate, except for "other person", by the then society officials (Catholic Church). Also the Aboriginal leader and their Society want her maidem name to justify it.

Oh well!

My mother is from France and her grand mother was a European Gypsie, and my Dad's Father and Mother lineage, go all the way back to Europe, that I have proof of.

So I'm one kind of "mix".

But still no rights "to argue freely".

Go figure
.
Do I make sense? That might be the reason why I'm not allowed to protest in Public.

:crycry:
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The man with the PowerPoint presentation is miffed.

He is speaking to a large aboriginal conference and some of the attendees, including a few who hold high office, have straggled in.

"I can't stand people who are late," he says into the microphone.

"Indian Time doesn't cut it."

Some giggle, but no one is quite sure how far he is going to go. Just sit back and listen:

"My first rule for success is 'Show up on time.' My No. 2 rule for success is follow Rule No. 1."

"If your life sucks, it's because you suck."

"Quit your sniffling."

"Join the real world - go to school or get a job."

"Get off of welfare. Get off your butt."

He pauses, seeming to gauge whether he dare, then does.

"People often say to me, 'How you doin'?' Geez - I'm working with Indians - what do you think?"

Now they are openly laughing ... applauding. Clarence Louie is everything that was advertised - and more.

"Our ancestors worked for a living," he says. "So should you."

He is, fortunately, aboriginal himself. If someone else stood up and said these things - the white columnist standing there with his mouth open, for example - "You'd be seen as a racist." Instead, Chief Clarence Louie is seen, increasingly, as one of the most interesting and innovative native leaders in the country - even though he avoids national politics.

He has come here to Fort McMurray because the aboriginal community needs, desperately, to start talking about economic development and what all this multibillion-dollar oil madness might mean, for good and for bad.

Clarence Louie is chief - and CEO - of the Osoyoos Band in British Columbia's South Okanagan. He is 44 years old, though he looks like he would have been an infant when he began his remarkable 20-year-run as chief. He took a band that had been declared bankrupt and taken over by Indian Affairs and he has turned in into an inspiration.

In 2000, the band set a goal of becoming self-sufficient in five years. They're there.

The Osoyoos, 432 strong, own, among other things, a vineyard, a winery, a golf course and a tourist resort, and they are partners in the Baldy Mountain ski development. They have more businesses per capita than any first nation in Canada.

There are not only enough jobs for everyone, there are so many jobs being created that there are now members of 13 other tribal communities working for the Osoyoos. The little band contributes $40-million a year to the area economy.

Chief Louie is tough. He is as proud of the fact that his band fires its own people as well as hires them. He has his mottos pasted throughout the "Rez." He believes there is "no such thing as consensus," that there will always be those who disagree. And, he says, he is milquetoast compared to his own mother when it comes to how today's lazy aboriginal youth, almost exclusively male, should be dealt with.

"Rent a plane," she told him, "and fly them all to Iraq. Dump 'em off and all the ones who make it back are keepers. Right on, Mom."

The message he has brought here to the Chipewyan, Dene and Cree who live around the oil sands is equally direct: Get involved, create jobs - and meaningful jobs, not just "window dressing" for the oil companies.

"The biggest employer," he says, "shouldn't be the band office."

He also says the time has come to "get over it." No more whining about 100-year-old failed experiments. No foolishly looking to the Queen to protect rights.

Louie says aboriginals here and along the Mackenzie Valley should not look at any sharing in development as "rocking-chair money" but as investment opportunity to create sustainable businesses. He wants them to move beyond entry-level jobs to real jobs they "earn" - all the way to the boardrooms. He wants to see "business manners" develop: showing up on time, working extra hours. The business lunch, he says, should be "drive through," and then right back at it.

"You're going to lose your language and culture faster in poverty than you will in economic development," he says to those who say he is ignoring tradition.

Tough talk, at times shocking talk given the audience, but on this day in this community, they took it - and, judging by the response, they loved it.

"Eighty per cent like what I have to say," Louie says, "Twenty per cent don't. I always say to the 20 per cent, 'Get over it. Chances are you're never going to see me again and I'm never going to see you again. Get some counselling.'"

The first step, he says, is all about leadership. He prides himself on being "a stay-home chief who looks after the potholes in his own backyard" and wastes no time "running around fighting 100-year-old battles.

"The biggest challenge will be how you treat your own people.

"Blaming government? That time is over."

rmacgregor@globeandmail.com
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CanuckShooter
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trophy
Jan 23 2013, 01:13 PM
CanuckShooter
Jan 22 2013, 12:09 PM
reddfoxx
Jan 21 2013, 08:57 PM
I get a little confused trying to understand the Metis issue.

I understand that the original native people claim (perhaps rightfully so) that they were here first. Then along comes the white European. They meet up with, fight and eventually share and trade with the native people. White guys probably hunted, trapped and lived a pretty free lifestyle. Then a few of the french Europeans tangled up with some native people and there were mixed blood children born. They called themselves (or were called) Metis.

How come those people who, were the esults of mixing of blood after European arrival, claim to have more rights than the European who was here before them and.... if it wasn't for the European influence..they might not be here at all?

I think the European decendants should have more rights than the Metis. If I can trace my ancestory back to pre-Metis times in North America, shouldn't my rights supercede theirs?

Redd :shy:

""If I can trace my ancestory back to pre-Metis times in North America, shouldn't my rights supercede theirs?""



Is that why the Metis have rights? Or do they have rights because mainstream Canadian politicians recognized them as 'aboriginal' in our Constitution?

Actually Canuck Shooter, they are right ,Metis first got their rights because they were settled with traditional hunting areas before Canada was born.
Now with the new ruling Metis people are now Indians.

Settlers should get the same right to sustanance.

There is no point in debating the issue, Metis, Cree, Ojibway, Inuk, Carrier, Haida, Mohawk..Etc...all are 'aboriginal' under our Constitution (1982) and so are all their children, grand children, great great and greater grandchildren. And so are those that gained 'status' under old laws via marriage or adoption. Being Metis isn't only having aboriginal ancestry, it's also having ties to the historic Metis communities and families that were around when they formed the provisional government of Manitoba....
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CanuckShooter
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LeGrand
Jan 23 2013, 03:59 PM
a great-great-great aunt of mine was Indian, so that would make me Métis.

Just can't prove it, since her maidem name was never recognised on her mariage certificate, except for "other person", by the then society officials (Catholic Church). Also the Aboriginal leader and their Society want her maidem name to justify it.

Oh well!

My mother is from France and her grand mother was a European Gypsie, and my Dad's Father and Mother lineage, go all the way back to Europe, that I have proof of.

So I'm one kind of "mix".

But still no rights "to argue freely".

Go figure
.
Do I make sense? That might be the reason why I'm not allowed to protest in Public.

:crycry:

Doesn't necessarily make you Metis, want to prove it have a DNA test done that looks for aboriginal markers.....then you'll have proof that will stand up in court. :-)
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CanuckShooter
Jan 24 2013, 01:13 AM
trophy,Jan 23 2013
01:13 PM
...ancestry, it's also having ties to the historic Metis communities and families that were around when they formed the provisional government of Manitoba....

Well if I recall Gabriel "Dumont" was involved.
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CanuckShooter
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LeGrand
Jan 24 2013, 08:25 AM
CanuckShooter,Jan 24 2013
01:13 AM
trophy,Jan 23 2013
01:13 PM
...ancestry, it's also having ties to the historic Metis communities and families that were around when they formed the provisional government of Manitoba....

Well if I recall Gabriel "Dumont" was involved.

Google Gabriel...lots of info online about his part in history.
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Renegade
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We should get a ruling today on the government appeal of the decision to recognize Canadians with mixed racial backgrounds with Indians as Indians. Hope some common sense shines through.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/m%C3%A9tis-non-status-indians-await-crucial-rights-ruling-from-court-1.2612874
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To be a member of the Golden Lake band you only need 1/178 part blood of a native. I know a whole family that has there card from there, blue eyed and blonde. Go figure.
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Sam Menard
Jan 11 2013, 07:33 PM
CanuckShooter,Jan 10 2013
03:04 AM
Renegade,Jan 8 2013
10:40 AM


What percentage of native blood do you have to have to be recognized as Metis?

What % do you need to be German, English or Spanish??

Prior to 1985 if you married a status Indian, you were automatically given status...so some might have zero native genetics....same thing for adoptees.

You are partly correct. Prior to 1985 if a native woman married a white man, she lost her status. If a white woman married a native man she gained status.

As for being Metis, a lot of people claim to be one because they may have aboriginal blood. In the eyes of the law, a true metis person is a person who:
- self identifies
- is accepted by the local community
- and is descendant of a member of one of the original Metis communities at the time of European control.

Other people, with "some" aboriginal blood, may be able to call themselves non-status indians.

The way the law works, its up to the person who asserts a right to prove it.

Sam

There's more to being able to claim metis rights than most people know. The "Powley" test is the standard used for enforcement in ontario. Only a small portion of metis citizens can pass this and are subsequently granted harvesting rights. They include in addition to what Sam said the requirement that a metis person is descended from a traditional metis community that existed before european control and continues to exist today, and the person continues to have a connection to the community. Even then, harvesting rights will only apply in their traditional territory. For eg. A metis from Sault Ste. Marie cannot just come to Thunder Bay and hunt moose without the demonstrated historical connection to the fur trade, and historic metis community.
Having said this, many people claim to be metis because they have native blood.........but they're mistaken and will be charged/convicted accordingly if caught.
Edited by baydog, Apr 19 2014, 04:23 PM.
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