| Welcome to Ontario Trophy Bucks forum. Enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| A world record cover up ? | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 12 2013, 12:07 PM (1,345 Views) | |
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 12:07 PM Post #1 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles...lusive-story-07 Read the story of the Johnny king buck which may have scored 215 net. What's your thoughts |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 12:21 PM Post #2 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
this buck is a 6 by 6 , all tines grow upward from the base it grossed 220 yet netted 180 according to b&c . I believe its been 6 years since the buck was killed but the debate still lingers makes you wonder, when Ron Boucher of Vermont was stripped of his scoring status, a volunteer duty he performed for 25 years, for speaking publicly about his opinions on the issue. Boucher served on two B&C panel scoring sessions including the one for the current world record Milo Hanson Buck. |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 12:45 PM Post #3 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
just some quotes from the story – After a 60-day drying period, the King Buck’s gross score was 225 7/8 and following deductions of 7 3/8, the final net was 218 4/8. That score would have been almost 5 points more than the Hanson Buck’s score. “Those numbers are staggering,” Boucher said. |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 12:59 PM Post #4 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
Marlin Laidlaw is a past board member of the Wisconsin Buck and Bear Club. Although he is not an official B&C scorer, Laidlaw has scored thousands of racks during his 27-year career with the WBBC. He first saw the King Buck on display at the Wisconsin Deer and Turkey Expo in 2007, and he said he immediately knew it was a giant buck. But at that time, Laidlaw was only vaguely aware of any controversy. In 2009, Laidlaw said he received a call from a friend, Korey Schillinger, a local police chief, who asked him to look at a deer head. It turned out to be the King Buck. As Laidlaw examined the rack, he listened to the story about the unfortunate ruling in which the right G-3 had been declared abnormal. However, it appeared to him that the rack could be scored as a typical. Schillinger told him the rack had never been scored for the Wisconsin Buck and Bear Club. Several more months passed. Laidlaw was haunted by what had happened, including the fact the rack had never been scored by the WBBC. His conscience would not let him forget about the King Buck. He called Fish, the new owner, and asked him if he could score it strictly for personal knowledge. Laidlaw said he made it plain to Fish that he would not be scoring the rack as a function of the WBBC or in any other official capacity. Fish responded, “I’ve been accused of ‘shopping’ the score by B&C, even though I have never allowed one single official B&C measurer to score it. The only way I would ever allow it to be officially scored is if it goes to a panel. Since no one from the Buck and Bear Club has scored it yet, and since you’re not an official B&C scorer, I will make an exception and allow you to score it for your own purposes.” Laidlaw measured the deer under the stated conditions and came up with a net typical score of 215 1/8 inches. “I found it easy to call this rack a typical 215-plus-inch rack and difficult to call it a 180-inch typical or a nontypical,” Laidlaw said. “I learned early on in my scoring career that if it’s a close call, give it to the animal. The rules are fairly clear, but judgment does enter in to any measurement. The facts, as they relate to this deer, are: “All points come off the top of the main beams. “All points have a matching point on the other beam. “What draws attention to the rack is that the right G-3 is shorter than its matching point on the left side. But the rules clearly state that differences in point length are accounted for in the ‘difference’ column. “Then there is the question about ‘common base points.’ This occurs when two points share the same base, which increases the circumference between them. If this occurs, one point could be construed as ‘abnormal.’ This is a judgment call and, many times, results in confusion for hunters and scorers alike. Once you answer the question, ‘Do the points come off the top of the main beam and are they matched?’ it seems that any other determination that would change them to something other than ‘typical’ points is double jeopardy in my view. “Under the common-base rule, to be able to count the tines as ‘typical’ they must have a figure 8 or peanut appearance if you removed both at the main beam. If they do, then you must draw the base line not at the beam but at the low point between the points — in this case between the G-2 and G-3. This is done so as not to give double credit because of the larger circumference as well as the extra point length. “With the King Buck, I found the G-2s and G-3s do pass the figure 8 test, but I believe that although the points are growing close together, they are so evenly spaced that ‘common base’ might not necessarily be the call. I found this rack to be almost perfect with the exception of the length difference between the right and left G-3s. “I have had numerous conversations with measurers who have a long history as B&C measurers, and they are of the belief that this deer is clearly a typical 200-plus-inch deer.” - See more at: http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles...h.WPkv0lUH.dpuf |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 01:04 PM Post #5 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
After examining the rack, Laidlaw told Fish that he would talk to some other WBBC officials and attempt to set up an objective panel-scoring session at the upcoming Deer and Turkey Expo in April 2010. Naturally, Fish and King were elated the deer might be given an impartial hearing. If nothing else, they hoped to get it recognized in the state of Wisconsin. Reneau allegedly caught wind of the possible panel-scoring session and contacted several WBBC measurers, allegedly telling them Fish was “shopping for a score” and instructing them not to score the King Buck under any circumstances. The end result: The deer was deemed too controversial to allow into the show, and the anticipated scoring session never occurred. - See more at: http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles...h.lnVDT2nO.dpuf |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 01:07 PM Post #6 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
Interestingly, Laidlaw later had the rack precisely measured by a laser-measuring device. Amazingly, all of the tines were found to be almost perfectly symmetrical from side to side as far as spacing is concerned, and both G-3 tines were found to be rising up off of the main beam at the same angle as most of the other typical tines. In other words, if the G-3s were abnormal, all of the other typical tines on the rack would have to be scored as abnormal tines. In short, all of the upright tines on one of the world’s greatest 6-by-6 typical bucks with an almost perfectly symmetrical rack (except for the length difference of the G-3s) would have to be scored as abnormal points. - See more at: http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles...h.lnVDT2nO.dpuf |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 01:11 PM Post #7 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
Several more months passed. Because so many people in Wisconsin believed the deer had not gotten a fair shake, another tentative panel-scoring session was set up for October 2010 in Marshfield, Wis. Several prominent WBBC measurers again were invited to take part. Just before the session was to take place, however, one of the club officers called Reneau and asked permission to allow the club to panel-score the deer. Reneau adamantly refused, and for the second time in 2010, a scoring session was cancelled at the last minute. - See more at: http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles...h.lnVDT2nO.dpuf |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 01:12 PM Post #8 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
Ron Boucher, a highly respected B&C measurer from Vermont, had been following the plight of the King Buck since he saw it at the Iowa Deer Classic in 2010. Highly experienced in scoring deer, Boucher had been one of the panel members who scored the world record Hanson Buck in the mid-1990s. Because he planned to be bow-hunting in Wisconsin in late October, he also planned to attend the panel-scoring session — strictly as an observer. “When I arrived, I knew that Fish and many others who were anticipating the scoring were deeply let down that the panel session had been cancelled, so I volunteered to score the rack myself,” he said. “I felt like it was the right thing to do. I wasn’t trying to go against B&C, but there were so many mitigating circumstances involving the rack. Jay never asked me to score it, I simply volunteered. After all, this is a pretty special deer. To my knowledge, it’s the only straight 6-by-6 with no abnormal points ever to gross over 220 inches.” Boucher knew he might be castigated by B&C for scoring the deer. After careful scrutiny, he said he believed both G-3s met the criteria to be scored as typical points, so he scored the rack as a typical 6-by-6. When he added up his numbers, he did a double-take. Incredibly, his figures tallied up a net typical score of 213 6/8 inches, beating Milo Hanson’s world-record score by 1/8 inch! Boucher submitted his score to B&C along with a six-page letter explaining his reasons for what he had done and why he thought the deer should be scored as a typical 6-by-6, according to the rules of scoring outlined in the B&C scorer’s manual. Reneau refused to accept the score. - See more at: http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles...h.lnVDT2nO.dpuf |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 01:15 PM Post #9 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
Sadly, one of the world’s greatest whitetails has been denied a chance to be recognized as a potential world record by Boone and Crockett, and the hunter who took that buck by fair-chase means has been sorely disappointed time and again the past four years. As a result, the King Buck has not been entered in B&C and probably never will be. Nor has it been recognized in any way by Wisconsin. Because of the way things were mishandled from the beginning, the Wisconsin Buck and Bear Club has apparently been hamstrung to do anything to rectify the situation. - See more at: http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles...h.lnVDT2nO.dpuf |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 01:16 PM Post #10 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
sad story |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 01:45 PM Post #11 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
so basically it was first measured by b&c scorer John Ramsey who scored it a clean 6 by 6 typical and the only concern was the break in the beam and said it would need to be panel scored. and that he could be the owner of a new Wisconsin record and possibly the new world-record typical! then Jack Reneau, executive secretary of B&C says the break is fine and not an issue but no its a 5 by 5 and nets 180 and thats the final word i guess? |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 02:21 PM Post #12 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
interesting pics on the figure 8 to establish a common base point http://www.bearhunting.com/publisher/Hunti...attle-Continues |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 02:23 PM Post #13 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
B&C says its best to enter the buck at 217 non typical ? whats non typical about this buck |
![]() |
|
ONbuckhunter
|
Dec 12 2013, 05:18 PM Post #14 |
![]()
Havelock
![]()
|
What really bugs me about this is how many other world class bucks have more of a shared base than the king buck. I'd have to google and look for some pics of those bucks. |
| I don't always chase tail, but when I do; its whitetail. Stay camo my friends. | |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 05:33 PM Post #15 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
they dont have a problem wih the left side but they do with the right it seems? |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 05:34 PM Post #16 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
right |
![]() |
|
| brokenarrow | Dec 12 2013, 06:40 PM Post #17 |
|
Regular
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Shane, I'm pretty sure that B+C actually ended up "assembling" a panel to score it in Montana, and then came up with "new" regulations as to why it didn't merit a higher score. The whole thing has a foul smell to it. I'm pretty sure someone here on the forum actually posted a video of the King rack being scored by a certified measurer. Anyone who watches that video will see that there is no way it could considered a non-typical point unless for nefarious reasons. IMOP Evan |
![]() |
|
ONbuckhunter
|
Dec 12 2013, 07:13 PM Post #18 |
![]()
Havelock
![]()
|
here is a Cpl that are top 20 in the world with similar common base point like the king buck![]() ![]() ![]() |
| I don't always chase tail, but when I do; its whitetail. Stay camo my friends. | |
![]() |
|
ONbuckhunter
|
Dec 12 2013, 07:18 PM Post #19 |
![]()
Havelock
![]()
|
Here is another. One of my favs the Maine "potato pile buck"
|
| I don't always chase tail, but when I do; its whitetail. Stay camo my friends. | |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 07:48 PM Post #20 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
obviously the bucks above have points that are in iffy of points sharing the same base point but how were they scored? were those points classified as non typical or typical points? |
![]() |
|
ONbuckhunter
|
Dec 12 2013, 08:03 PM Post #21 |
![]()
Havelock
![]()
|
Those are all scored as typicals. And all have base points similar to king buck. The potato pile buck is way more obvious than the king buck |
| I don't always chase tail, but when I do; its whitetail. Stay camo my friends. | |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 08:17 PM Post #22 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
Wow that's interesting obviously there's a problem here |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 09:29 PM Post #23 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
new regulations? i would like to know about them. |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 09:30 PM Post #24 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
any official measurers here that know of any changes to the b&c system? |
![]() |
|
| Renegade | Dec 12 2013, 09:33 PM Post #25 |
![]()
Atikokan, Ontario
|
We did have a lot of discussion on this awhile back. I think it should have been a typical as well. B&C got a black eye over this. I like the BTR scoring system myself. |
| |
![]() |
|
| Shane | Dec 12 2013, 10:09 PM Post #26 |
|
Team Ontario Trophy Bucks
|
the reason i brought this all up again Rene is i seen on facebook the king buck was announced as that it was the new number 1 typical antlered buck of all time from the Northeast Big Buck club just what that club is i dont know |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · Hunters Campfire · Next Topic » |









2a_Left_Side.jpg (58.08 KB)

![]](http://z4.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)




2:18 PM Jul 11