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Apples to Acorns.......
Topic Started: Jan 14 2013, 11:46 AM (3,178 Views)
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If you were going to plant trees to provide a long term food source, would you plant apple trees or oak trees?? My thought is that oaks take a lot longer to produce acorns than apple trees do apples, but acorns provide better nutritional value for the deer. Thoughts? Has anyone tried planting one or both of these species?
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Friggs
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Bocephus_86
Jan 14 2013, 11:46 AM
If you were going to plant trees to provide a long term food source, would you plant apple trees or oak trees?? My thought is that oaks take a lot longer to produce acorns than apple trees do apples, but acorns provide better nutritional value for the deer. Thoughts? Has anyone tried planting one or both of these species?

Why not plant both.
Diversity is the way to go....I have both, plus pear and crab apples all in a orchard next to my destination food plot. Apples come in different drop times and you could have apples from late summer to late winter if you have different varieties. Acorns only last a month or two depending on the amount of acorns that year and other competition, like squirrels and turkeys.
I have swamp white oak and burr oak seedlings growing now and I started some Chinese chestnut. I just don't plant for deer but for all critters like bear, grouse, rabbits. Try some of the berry shrubs like elderberry, blackberry and highbush cranberries, deer eat and love the berries and the browse too.

Just look in the USA especially the northern states that have a planting zone - 3 & 4 like us, we should be able to plant the same varieties as they do here in Ontario, but very few do.

Here is some of my orchard trees which I started two years ago. You will spend more money on protecting and nursing the tree then the actual cost of the tree. I've also started my own from seed and cloning rootstock and grafting, loads of fun.
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Here are some crabapple seedlings from last year and have been bud grafted and will be planted in spring of 2014.
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Friggs
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Friggs, right on!!! Did you buy some tree stock to get yourself started??
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Nice work Friggs.

I plant both as well, but oak can be really difficult to establish if you are growing them outside their primary range... I planted red and white oak in the Kincardine area, and I have tried all sorts of methods. They often seem to experience transplant shock, no matter how much I try to baby them. Once they are established, I count on at least 10 years before they start to put on much growth. It seems that they put most of their growth into the roots first, and once established they grow upwards. We now have a red oak that grows about 2 feet in height each year, and has produced some acorns as of age 15 or so. The rest put on inches per year.... I planted to oak so that one day, when I am long gone, I'll be leaving a little gift for the critters that roam after me.

On my parents land I try and promote the foods that tend to grow naturally (American beach, apple trees, and other fruit bearing shrubs). My advice would be to try and work with nature's tendencies, and not against them.

Eastern Ontario, far southern Ontario, and the north shores of the great lakes seem to grow good oak.
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Friggs
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Bocephus_86
Jan 14 2013, 01:04 PM
Friggs, right on!!! Did you buy some tree stock to get yourself started??

Yes, bit of both... I first bought 2 wealthy apple on M111 and 2 redfree on ELMA 106 that were about 3-4 years old and in the previous photo thats caged. The following year I bought a 3 year old dolgo crabapple and a centinial and chestnut crabapple on ranetka whips which are also planted and caged. Plus that fall 2 golden delcious on ranetka and a couple of barlett pears about 10 trees in total now. I have 2 liberty and 4 dolgo crabs that were all grafted and still to come.
I used 5 foot concrete mesh for caging on the first four and placed 36" metal screening around the trunk, for mice, moles and rabbits. All this protection is a must. I have one apple tree that has been browsed because it has a small 3 foot fence around it. I also used plastic snow drift fencing make a 5 foot circle around the tree and that works great.

Let me know if your interested and I'll send you loads of stuff to read to get you started.

Friggs
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Friggs
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Cervus_stalker
Jan 14 2013, 02:42 PM
Nice work Friggs.

I plant both as well, but oak can be really difficult to establish if you are growing them outside their primary range... I planted red and white oak in the Kincardine area, and I have tried all sorts of methods. They often seem to experience transplant shock, no matter how much I try to baby them. Once they are established, I count on at least 10 years before they start to put on much growth. It seems that they put most of their growth into the roots first, and once established they grow upwards. We now have a red oak that grows about 2 feet in height each year, and has produced some acorns as of age 15 or so. The rest put on inches per year.... I planted to oak so that one day, when I am long gone, I'll be leaving a little gift for the critters that roam after me.

On my parents land I try and promote the foods that tend to grow naturally (American beach, apple trees, and other fruit bearing shrubs). My advice would be to try and work with nature's tendencies, and not against them.

Eastern Ontario, far southern Ontario, and the north shores of the great lakes seem to grow good oak.

I feel the same way as you about leaving stuff for down the road when your gone.
I also have 4 black walnut that I planted from seed and are over ten years old but no nuts yet maybe in another 5-6 years from now.
I have several large wild red oak which I have released from other trees and fertilize every spring which drop loads of acorns, the smaller oaks grow just as you said. I think the squirels eat most of the acorns and bury quite a few also. That's why lots of baby red oaks coming up everywhere and when there about 6-8 feet tall I start looking after them.

I agree with you about growing better in more southern climates but some will grow in my zone - 4, either way I enjoy planting them even if they don't make it.

Friggs
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Friggs
Jan 14 2013, 03:03 PM

Let me know if your interested and I'll send you loads of stuff to read to get you started.

Friggs

That would be great! Thanks Friggs!!
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Friggs
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Bocephus,
He is some good reading and resource for you regarding apple trees. First this is my advise, I'm no expert but I have learned a lot from reading.

First stick with standard size trees that are disease resistant. Select the type of rootstock for your soil and zone and different drop times of the fruit. My favorites are redfree, liberty, enterprise and in crabs dolgo and chestnut and rootstock is m111, b118 or ranetka, antonovka. There are certain fruit tree nurseries in Ontario that will get the selection of trees you want but might take a year or two. These two are good to deal with and I have. Just tell them you want as I mentioned above.
http://www.silvercreeknursery.ca/index.php
http://www.siloamorchards.com/apple_tr.html

My soil is sandy loam so I mixed a bag of manure and some dolomite lime with the soil with each tree and cover the top of the root area with black plastic (i use plastic old lumber tarp, they were free) stake and protect the tree and trunk from deer and critters. First year don't fertilize there is enough in the manure and spray and watch for pests/insects and water them. Second year prune and fertilize in early spring and remove plastic and apply mulch, and get the scaffolds slightly horizontal.
Just spend the next little while reading and researching these sites below and once that's done I can help you with any questions.

I hope this helps and I hope you don't get bit by the bug like I did.....Friggs

I borrowed these links from other sites.

http://www.outreachoutdoors.com/phpBB3/vie....php?f=26&t=317
http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17837

Choosing a rootstock for your wildlife apple trees
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32037
Fundamentals of fruit tree planting for wildlife
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30510
The wildlife apple orchard calendar
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43901
Apple spray program for newbies
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36243
Tips on growing/pruning caged apple trees
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30469


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Unbelievable! Thanks for the info Friggs! :cheers:
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Friggs
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Bocephus_86
Jan 15 2013, 12:26 PM
Unbelievable! Thanks for the info Friggs! :cheers:

No problem and my pleaure. Where do you live and hunt ?

Frank
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Friggs
Jan 15 2013, 12:50 PM
Bocephus_86
Jan 15 2013, 12:26 PM
Unbelievable! Thanks for the info Friggs! :cheers:

No problem and my pleaure. Where do you live and hunt ?

Frank

Lanark. I have two properties that I hunt on, one is a colleague's parents and it is big woods country north of Lanark, but I am planning on doing the tree planting on my in-laws property. We cleared some area this past spring and we thought the trees would be a nice long term food source to go with our food plots.
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Friggs
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We both have the same planting hardiness zone which is Zone - 4, make sure you buy tree that can handle zone - 3

Friggs
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Bocephus or whoever,

Here is some video's and resource from Dave at Century Farms in North Carolina.
Keep in mind that their climate and zone is different then here in the north so the varieties might not work in your planting zone, still good basic information in planting and spraying.

http://www.centuryfarmorchards.com/demos/demonstrations.html

Enjoy...Friggs
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Awesome, thanks for the link to Silver Creek. I didn't know there was another good nursery other than Siloam and they only seemed to have dwarfs and they're 5$ more per tree! Just put in an order with Silver Creek for

4xSweet 16 (Mid-Sep drop)
4xCortland (Early Oct)
4xHoney Gold (Mid Oct)
4xNorthern Spy (Late Oct drop)

Going to put 2 of each at the deer property and 2 of each at home. I already have 5 liberty and 5 freedom, all dwarf, going into their 3rd year. I love watching them grow a bit each year.
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Ikantski
Jan 17 2013, 12:34 PM
Awesome, thanks for the link to Silver Creek. I didn't know there was another good nursery other than Siloam and they only seemed to have dwarfs and they're 5$ more per tree! Just put in an order with Silver Creek for

4xSweet 16 (Mid-Sep drop)
4xCortland (Early Oct)
4xHoney Gold (Mid Oct)
4xNorthern Spy (Late Oct drop)

Going to put 2 of each at the deer property and 2 of each at home. I already have 5 liberty and 5 freedom, all dwarf, going into their 3rd year. I love watching them grow a bit each year.

Kantski,
You will like Ken from Silvercreek, easy to work with and great customer service. Not certain if your picking up or shipped.
Siloam is good also but they need some time for special rootstock orders like Ranetka or larger varieties. They also sell some scionwood which I'll be interested next year, like enterprise.
I will have my first crop of clonial Ranetka rootstock this coming spring, three rootstocks actually. I will have more rootstocks down the road as the root ball gets bigger. Hoping to graft some liberty on to these rootstocks and the following year and try some different varieties the following year.

How is your liberty growing ? is it vigorous ? more than freedom or the same ?

I whip and tongue grafted some liberty on to some crab seedlings and they grew over 4 feet last summer. I've talk to several people that have liberty and they really like it because its disease resistant and grows vigorously.

All this apple tree stuff should be right up your alley with your honey bee's and all. I guess it won't be long before you get your hives going.
I'm getting cabin fever and can't wait for maple syrup season to start. Tapping trees around mid/end Feburary and I hope we have better weather than last year.
Friggs
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Ikantski
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They're both growing at about the same rate actually. I didn't mark which were which when I planted though. This will be their 3rd summer since I planted. They slept and crept so hopefully this year they leap.

The bees are packed up for winter, I made a big box out of aspenite, put the 4 hives in there and wrapped the whole thing in tar paper with a few holes for them to fly on nice days. They'll be staying in there until the end of March at least. Maple syrup sounds way more fun during the winter! I'll be out there spray painting some trees to mark the new clearing soon as it warms up a bit.
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125 plus
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IF YOU ARE YOUNG PUT IN OAKS AND APPLES TREES. I PUT IN 450 WHITE OAKS, FROM SEEDLINGS, ON A PROPERTY IN 1992, I HAVE YET TO SEE A ACORN THOUGH IT SHOULD BE HAPPENING SOON. BECAUSE OF THE KNOWN DELAY IN WHITE OAK GROWTH AND ACORN PRODUCTION I ALSO PLANTED 300 SAWTOOTH OAKS THAT WERE HAVE ACORNS IN 3-6 YEARS, I PLANTED THOSE IN 1993 AND 1994 STILL NO ACORNS. MY APPLES TREES THAT WERE ALREADY ON THE PROPERTY ARE PUTTING DOWN APPLES AND THE DEER ARE MOPPING THEM UP. I WOULD GO WITH THE APPLES ESPECIALLY IF THERE ARE NO OTHER TREES AROUND YOUR AREA. I WOULD WORRY ABOUT BEAR DAMAGE. NOT SURE HOW THAT WOULD PLAY OUT? HATE TO GROW AN APPLE TREE FOR 5 - 10 YEARS TO HAVE THE BEAR TEAR IT DOWN. ANYONE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THEIR APPLE TREES GETTING HIT BY BEARS ??? THINKING ABOUT PUTTING SOME ON A PROPERTY NEAR IRON BRIDGE ?? THE OTHER THING TO LOOK AT ARE RED OAKS, I HEAR THEY GROW FASTER AND PRODUCE SOONER THOUGH THE DEER WILL WALK RIGHT BY THOSE ACORNS TO GET TO THE WHITE OAK ACORNS.
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trophy
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Had a bear every year at our old apple tree they usually broke a couple branches, but it still lives and produces.
Young trees need really good protection or don't bother.
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Friggs
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No problem with bears yet with my apple trees but that could change once they produce fruit. I pinched off fruit last year and maybe will let a few grow this year to see what happens.
It will be interesting to see what the bears will do to the 5' concrete mesh if that happens. I'm heading up this weekend and will fertilize my orchard on Sunday, its suppose to rain early next week. All the pruning is done and just have to spray when the bugs come (especially caterpillars).

I agree with 125 plus about oak trees especially white oak, I won't see any acorns in my life time and they have a hard time growing in zone-4 and lower.
As I stated earlier, I've started some white, burr, swampy white oak and chinese chestnut indoors and some are outside now and will be planting them sometime this fall and maybe a few next spring all in zone- 4b. If they die during the winter then no big deal didn't cost me anything.
Its not just about shooting brown but the enjoyment and the contribution before the hunt.

Friggs
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I planted 36,000 seedlings on my property between 2006 and 2009,42 different varieties of hard woods.A lot of the berry bushes too.i have 9 different dog wood and the deer do a good job of prunning them.Deer like the red and white cedarsas well as white pines.
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Well started the oak growing process this year. Picked a bunch of white oak acorns in September/October whenever they were starting to drop and then put them in a plastic bag with some damp paper towels for the winter. I then planted them in early January, and I have 18 going. Plan to plant these guys in early spring, once the weather warms up.
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I am going to start more this fall ( I have limited space to do so) and also try starting some apples.
:cheers:
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Friggs
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Great job, they look very healthy. They look more like Burr Oak or possibly Swamp White Oak but leaning more towards Burr. Make sure you introduce them slowly to direct sunlight come this spring. I planted 15 burr, 10 swamp white oak and 10 white oak last fall from acorns also. Hope they make it through the winter.

I've ordered 30 burr oak seedlings to plant this spring at the hunt camp.
Keep us posted on your progress.

Friggs
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Another Bowhunter

Excellent information and advice, tfs.
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Friggs
Mar 6 2014, 09:02 PM
Great job, they look very healthy. They look more like Burr Oak or possibly Swamp White Oak but leaning more towards Burr. Make sure you introduce them slowly to direct sunlight come this spring. I planted 15 burr, 10 swamp white oak and 10 white oak last fall from acorns also. Hope they make it through the winter.

I've ordered 30 burr oak seedlings to plant this spring at the hunt camp.
Keep us posted on your progress.

Friggs
They could be Burr or Swamp White's Friggs, I have lost my touch when it comes to tree ID, so I lump them into either white or red oak :D

Thanks for the advice. :cheers:
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Bocephus_86
Mar 7 2014, 08:37 AM
Friggs
Mar 6 2014, 09:02 PM
Great job, they look very healthy. They look more like Burr Oak or possibly Swamp White Oak but leaning more towards Burr. Make sure you introduce them slowly to direct sunlight come this spring. I planted 15 burr, 10 swamp white oak and 10 white oak last fall from acorns also. Hope they make it through the winter.

I've ordered 30 burr oak seedlings to plant this spring at the hunt camp.
Keep us posted on your progress.

Friggs
They could be Burr or Swamp White's Friggs, I have lost my touch when it comes to tree ID, so I lump them into either white or red oak :D

Thanks for the advice. :cheers:
White oak have distictive rounded lobes, swamp and burr leaves look the same but the swamp is whiteish color on the bottom of the leaf and burr has same color on both sides.
Are you going to plant some fruit trees in the future ?
I'm taking a grafting course at Silver Creek nursery in late May. I've already successfully grafted several apple and pear but thought it would be fun to attend.

Friggs
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I would like to plant fruit trees, however I am not familiar on how to graft fruit trees.....
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Friggs
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You can always purchase fruit trees from a nursery with the variety and rootstock you want. Grafting is just the next step and is not for everyone. I like sweet eating crabs like chestnut, Rescue and Dolgo to name a few the deer really like the smaller fruit and its easier for deer to eat. Deer will eat the wild crabs also but my thinking is I would like to eat/cook a few also.
Now that I'm retired and I will be spending more time at the hunt camp and will be planting various fruit trees and fruiting shrubs such as blueberry. I've got several catologues in the mail recently.

If you decide to purchase custom fruit trees get ready to spend more money on protecting your tree then actually buying the tree.
Hope this helps.

Take care...Friggs
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MOOSEHEAD

I planted two apples trees about 5ft high last spring. Have them fenced off so the deer don't touch them. I do want to plant some more apple trees and maybe a few acorn trees
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Friggs
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Mattones,
What variety are these two trees ?
Do you know the rootstock, drawf or semi-drawf ?
Stick to the disease resistant varieties such as Liberty, Enterprise, Pristine to name a few. Just look after them for the first couple of years and then leave them alone.

Friggs
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Lanark Hill Country

Does anyone on here have experience planting black walnuts? I gathered up a bunch of nuts this Fall but have no idea of what is the best way to make them grow? Any help would be appreciated.

George
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Friggs
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Hey George,
My Dad and I use to plant them around the farm when I was a teenager 35-40 years ago. Today when I drive by the farm they're still there feeding the squirrels and providing shade around the house. Dad also started a small 1/2 acre plantation which is still there today and each tree is about 6" diameter.
Dad and I use to stick the nuts in the ground in the fall, husk and all, side ways about 2-3" down. The squirrels got most of them but the odd one would grow. Years later, Dad and I planted some at the hunt camp and know I have about a dozen growing which I look after. I bet Dad planted about a bushel or two to just get a dozen trees.

Black Walnut trees produce a toxic oil and during the heat of the summer it drips this oily substance underneath so keep your vehicles away and certain plants/trees will die and certain others are fine. Also, when the nuts are dropping they can hurt if they land on your head or make a nice dent on your car. They prefer deep soil because of their tap root but we have planted them in 30" of soil above bedrock. When you handle the nuts they will stain your hands and clothing and it hard to clean off.

That all being said, they are still one of my favorite trees and I will plant them around any hardwood tree or forest area.

BW seeds need to be cold straitified for 3-4 months before they will germinate, so take the husks off in the fall asap because it easier stick several nuts in a plastic bag with damp peatmoss for 3-4 months in the refridgerator and when they form a small root plant them sideways or tap root down. You must some how protect the buried seed from squirrels by caging them. Dad also planted some seeds in flat trays with 3-4" of soil in the fall and stuck them in the garage during the winter and moved them into the sun in the spring and covered them with chicken wire. Once they sprouted he would transplant them elsewhere.
Or, you can buy seedlings from certain nurseries but its cheaper, rewarding and more fun planting the seeds by hand. We use to kick our heels in the dirt drop a seed and cover them with dirt and all with your boot and no bending over.

I hope this helps a little and good luck and keep us posted.

Friggs

George,
Found these links about planting and harvesting Black Walnuts.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/garden/yard-garden/trees-shrubs/growing-black-walnut/

http://nightwriter.hubpages.com/hub/How_To_Grow_Your_Own_Walnut_Trees_From_Seeds

http://tomclothier.hort.net/page21.html

http://www.centerforagroforestry.org/pubs/walnutNuts.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feNMcuvF4kY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM-tgJw7CaU

Friggs
Edited by Friggs, Apr 7 2014, 08:09 AM.
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Lanark Hill Country

Thanks Friggs. This is the info I was looking for. I have a gallon bucket of seeds that I will try to get going. They have been in my shed all Winter so they did get cold. I hope some of them will sprout.
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I think I'm going to try planting some hybrid oak seedlings this year and see how the do. Apparently 2-3 times faster growing than regular white oak. Has anyone plante these? Schuettes oak is what I'm lookingg at.
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coolhcarol
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Hey why is that cylindrical kind of thing used for?? what's it advantage?
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coolhcarol
May 7 2014, 01:13 AM
Hey why is that cylindrical kind of thing used for?? what's it advantage?
Do you mean the pots that the seedlings were planted in? It is just a peat pot I believe?? They were left over from some shoreline plantings that we used at work. No real advantage to them other than the tree can be planted directly in the ground still in the pot, unless you did what I did and planted 2 acorns per pot = bad idea.

Trees were put in the ground May 14, just in time for all the rain we got last week. I will try and remember to take my camera out and get pictures of them when I check them on the weekend.

Cheers,

Andy
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baydog
Apr 19 2014, 04:36 PM
I think I'm going to try planting some hybrid oak seedlings this year and see how the do. Apparently 2-3 times faster growing than regular white oak. Has anyone plante these? Schuettes oak is what I'm lookingg at.

I have 8or 9 different types of oaks from the MIchigan ,Windsor area ,but never heard of Schuettes. I prefers the whites oaks,their a lot sweeter and produce every year. The red/ blacks every other year. The deer in our area prefers to eat them during the spring and summer,but will scarf them up in the staging area.
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Friggs
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Greenhorn,
Schuette Oak is a cross between a Swamp White Oak and a Burr oak. One is grafted on to another to produce this variety. They say the nut is slightly sweeter than a Burr or Swamp white. Their are several varieties of hybred grafted oak out there, they say bur will graft on to most white oaks.

Friggs
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I have a few different types of Shumard oaks. Could they be the same?? My property is turning into a wild life haven,they have all the food necessary. Brent
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Friggs
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Greenhorn
May 25 2014, 11:09 AM
I have a few different types of Shumard oaks. Could they be the same?? My property is turning into a wild life haven,they have all the food necessary. Brent
Shumard is in the red oak family and is not a crossbreed or grafted variety. Will grow in zone 5 but that's about it for hardiness.

Friggs
The Schuette, Burr and Swamp white are all in the white oak family.
Greenhorn, I' sent you a PM....Friggs
Edited by Friggs, May 25 2014, 12:41 PM.
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I think schuettes is supposed to be ok for my hardiness zone......Thunder Bay/northern minnesota........I didn't get them planted yet.........had to plant a bunch of conifer seedlings and that took up most of my time.
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