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Females of VE, gather!; For nobody seems to know who you are.
Topic Started: Dec 10 2011, 06:07 AM (9,485 Views)
Speedy
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Fairly sure I've given up.
Hatsune Candy
Nov 30 2013, 09:33 PM
Whether gender neutral pronouns exist or not, I'm with Jeebs, it just feels wrong.
Even if they were commonly used, I wouldn't use them. But maybe that's just me.
And THAT is precisely the problem here. People seemingly refuse to use them. Why is it such a problem? I admit, I barely use the gender neutral pronouns myself, but I try to at least use they where I should.

Hatsune Candy
Nov 30 2013, 09:33 PM
Anyways, their existence doesn't matter. This isn't a grammar topic.
Again wrong. Maybe not a grammar topic, but this topic was originally set up for females to identify themselves as such, considering the large male presence. In the introduction post, it clearly says '(Or think you should be a girl but are in a boy's body, that counts too.)'. Back THEN I made sure to cover the bases of people who AREN'T cisgendered get a shot too. Soon as Michiyo popped up, I added the Gender Neutral list, as to show how open we are.

Because you see, Candy.. this ISN'T a grammar issue. This is an issue with calling people what they prefer. Words like xir, zhi, hu, etc. are words that SHOULD become more common. And if you flat out refuse 'even if they were commonly used'? Then you're just being a DICK.

The whole intention of this topic is to get attention to people getting called the way they want to. Naku wants to be referred to with female pronouns. Fine with me, I'll probably slip up a few times but I'll do my best to refer to HER as female. If anyone else goes 'I want to be called gender neutral', then they will get me calling them they, or when I finally start automatically applying them, the proper gender neutral pronouns.

I suppose that's where I disagree with Shane, what with the 'whether you wish to use them'.. Cause I don't see this as a 'whether you wish to use them', but rather as a 'why the hell aren't you using them if the other person asks you to'. THEY will understand if you accidentally slip up, as long as you actually take the damn effort.
Edited by Speedy, Dec 1 2013, 06:50 AM.
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Alteiriaa
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They/them is a bit of a thing, it is generally used to refer to multiple people but it is a singular thing too, even if it does seem a bit... thing.
...Not polite, or really inpersonal. That'll do. It is better then just refering to everyone as 'you' though, since that can be quite rude. (not that I'm innocent on that front. I'm not a jerk, honest, I'm just bad at words. If I misgender any of you guys, I'm sorry~ ;u;'' )

And like Speedy said, xir/xim is becoming more and more common. There was another one that was floating around too, I think, but I can't remember what it was since it's been a while since I've seen it. (edit while typing: It was zir and/or hir.) I've seen a bunch more besides, upto and including yim/yum, so really just identify as whatever oneself feels that one is, just don't go changing pronouns every other week or everyone is going to be confused.

eta: if anybody is a they though that's what they prefer, saying that they are wrong because they are refering to themselves as that and it is incorrect isn't nice to the peeps who want to be they/them, just cuz you aren't feeling it doesn't make it wrong at all. Just make a effort to call people as they like to be called. :D
Edited by Alteiriaa, Dec 1 2013, 07:09 AM.
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Hatsune Candy
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The soul of a forgotten file
Speedy
Dec 1 2013, 06:50 AM
Hatsune Candy
Nov 30 2013, 09:33 PM
Whether gender neutral pronouns exist or not, I'm with Jeebs, it just feels wrong.
Even if they were commonly used, I wouldn't use them. But maybe that's just me.
And THAT is precisely the problem here. People seemingly refuse to use them. Why is it such a problem? I admit, I barely use the gender neutral pronouns myself, but I try to at least use they where I should.

Hatsune Candy
Nov 30 2013, 09:33 PM
Anyways, their existence doesn't matter. This isn't a grammar topic.
Again wrong. Maybe not a grammar topic, but this topic was originally set up for females to identify themselves as such, considering the large male presence. In the introduction post, it clearly says '(Or think you should be a girl but are in a boy's body, that counts too.)'. Back THEN I made sure to cover the bases of people who AREN'T cisgendered get a shot too. Soon as Michiyo popped up, I added the Gender Neutral list, as to show how open we are.

Because you see, Candy.. this ISN'T a grammar issue. This is an issue with calling people what they prefer. Words like xir, zhi, hu, etc. are words that SHOULD become more common. And if you flat out refuse 'even if they were commonly used'? Then you're just being a DICK.

The whole intention of this topic is to get attention to people getting called the way they want to. Naku wants to be referred to with female pronouns. Fine with me, I'll probably slip up a few times but I'll do my best to refer to HER as female. If anyone else goes 'I want to be called gender neutral', then they will get me calling them they, or when I finally start automatically applying them, the proper gender neutral pronouns.

I suppose that's where I disagree with Shane, what with the 'whether you wish to use them'.. Cause I don't see this as a 'whether you wish to use them', but rather as a 'why the hell aren't you using them if the other person asks you to'. THEY will understand if you accidentally slip up, as long as you actually take the damn effort.
I use they as much as anyone else does, but that's not the point.
'They' is generally used if the gender is unknown.
It's completely different from a gender neutral pronoun, which is only to be used when there is no gender.

Every human has a gender, whether they accept it or not.
To call someone by a neutral pronoun just makes it feel, as Naku said, like they're not human. At least for some people.

I'm not being a "dick" by refusing to use these pronouns, I'm just not comfortable with it.
Calling me a dick for something I'm not comfortable with is being a dick.
Any decent person should be able to respect that it makes me uncomfortable and that's that.
Edited by Hatsune Candy, Dec 1 2013, 08:02 AM.
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JBRam
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Don't play with fire, kids.
Guys, calling each other dicks will only serve to undermine your positions.

I don't know anyone who has requested I use a neutral pronoun. I knorw one person irl who identifies herself as genderqueer. I call her a her because that is what I've always called her. It isn't being a dick to forget to call someone a different pronoun, especially one that is as rare as xir. In fact, I have never heard anyone use any gender neutral pronouns. Even on the internet, I hsve only heard of the supposed existence, but never seen them in action. There are also nearly dozens of these made up and mostly unused words. There are so many that it's impossible to keep track in normal conversation unless you carry around a list with you.

From a cisgendered perspective, don't think those of us who struggle with knowing what to call someone or being able to refer to someone by a nonexistent pronoun as actively trying to undermine you. I hate labels in general. I reger to people as people. Your gender is not important in whether or not you're human.

On the other hand, before you go commit to gender reassignment, ask yourself WHY you want to be the opposite sex. This has surpassed a gender issue and moved over to the physical side. If it is to be more accepted, I am sorry to say that currently, post op people are less respected than those who feel they are a different gender. If this is about gender roles and how you feel more feminine than masculine (or vice versa), you are buying into false societal norms that mean nothing in the long term and reassigning yourself will not fix the problem. A guy can like other guys, play with dolls, go shopping and get nails done, etc. It doesn't mean they're girls trapped in men's bodies. It means they are men with culturally feminine habits.

So my question is: why? Why go through the massive cash and stigma to do almost nothing to fix the true underlyoing issue of societal normatives?
Edited by JBRam, Dec 1 2013, 08:41 AM.
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Hatsune Candy
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The soul of a forgotten file
JBRam
Dec 1 2013, 08:39 AM
Guys, calling each other dicks will only serve to undermine your positions.
For the record, I wasn't calling anyone a dick, specifically.

JBRam
Dec 1 2013, 08:39 AM
On the other hand, before you go commit to gender reassignment, ask yourself WHY you want to be the opposite sex. This has surpassed a gender issue and moved over to the physical side. If it is to be more accepted, I am sorry to say that currently, post op people are less respected than those who feel they are a different gender. If this is about gender roles and how you feel more feminine than masculine (or vice versa), you are buying into false societal norms that mean nothing in the long term and reassigning yourself will not fix the problem. A guy can like other guys, play with dolls, go shopping and get nails done, etc. It doesn't mean they're girls trapped in men's bodies. It means they are men with culturally feminine habits.

So my question is: why? Why go through the massive cash and stigma to do almost nothing to fix the true underlyoing issue of societal normatives?
That is very good question, I never really thought about that before.
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Yurei Shojo
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The Wandering Spirit
Another female here you can mark down, if you don't mind.
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Speedy
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Fairly sure I've given up.
Yurei Shojo
Dec 1 2013, 12:00 PM
Another female here you can mark down, if you don't mind.
No minding at all. You're on the list.




Hatsune Candy
Dec 1 2013, 07:59 AM
Every human has a gender, whether they accept it or not.
'Whether they accept it or not'? That's a bit awkward. People are born in a certain sex, like having a penis, a vagina or being a hermaphrodite. Gender, however, is the mental association. Someone can feel like they're the completely opposite gender, both genders or even neither. Welcome to 'how to understand the difference between the born sex and people's genders', as those are two completely different terms. Might want to learn that difference. Every human has the gender they're comfortable with.

Hatsune Candy
Dec 1 2013, 07:59 AM
To call someone by a neutral pronoun just makes it feel, as Naku said, like they're not human. At least for some people.
That would be Naku specific here. But you know what? This is EXACTLY WHY WE HAVE THIS TOPIC- so people can tell us which pronoun they want. Here's a hint: Michiyo. Zhi wanted to be referred to with gender neutral pronouns.

Hatsune Candy
Dec 1 2013, 07:59 AM
I'm not being a "dick" by refusing to use these pronouns, I'm just not comfortable with it.
Calling me a dick for something I'm not comfortable with is being a dick.
Any decent person should be able to respect that it makes me uncomfortable and that's that.
You're missing the point though. Ofcourse any decent human being should be able to respect it.. you just forget that this isn't about YOU. This is about THEM. This is about the people who have issues with their sex-based appointed genders, and feel they are different, and want to be treated differently.

JBRam
Dec 1 2013, 08:39 AM
I don't know anyone who has requested I use a neutral pronoun.
Michiyo. Did you guys even read this topic?
JBRam
Dec 1 2013, 08:39 AM
I knorw one person irl who identifies herself as genderqueer. I call her a her because that is what I've always called her.
Question: Did she ever ask you to refer otherwise? If yes, might want to do so. If no, then there's no problem.
JBRam
Dec 1 2013, 08:39 AM
It isn't being a dick to forget to call someone a different pronoun, especially one that is as rare as xir.
It is if you've been asked. Otherwise, you're right.
JBRam
Dec 1 2013, 08:39 AM
From a cisgendered perspective, don't think those of us who struggle with knowing what to call someone or being able to refer to someone by a nonexistent pronoun as actively trying to undermine you. I hate labels in general. I reger to people as people. Your gender is not important in whether or not you're human.
Again, totally right. Not the point. It's about people ASKING you to refer to them with other pronouns. If they do, you really should do precisely that.

JBRam
Dec 1 2013, 08:39 AM
On the other hand, before you go commit to gender reassignment, ask yourself WHY you want to be the opposite sex. This has surpassed a gender issue and moved over to the physical side. If it is to be more accepted, I am sorry to say that currently, post op people are less respected than those who feel they are a different gender. If this is about gender roles and how you feel more feminine than masculine (or vice versa), you are buying into false societal norms that mean nothing in the long term and reassigning yourself will not fix the problem. A guy can like other guys, play with dolls, go shopping and get nails done, etc. It doesn't mean they're girls trapped in men's bodies. It means they are men with culturally feminine habits.

So my question is: why? Why go through the massive cash and stigma to do almost nothing to fix the true underlyoing issue of societal normatives?
Entirely different point. But if you want to know, I'd suggest you PM Naku. She's planning on going ahead with it, after all.


But let me make this a bit more clear..

This is not about 'I don't feel comfortable with x' or 'These words aren't common and shouldn't be used'.. This is about PEOPLE ASKING YOU TO REFER TO THEM AS ANYTHING ELSE and you being a DECENT HUMAN BEING IN ACTUALLY DOING SO. Simple as that.
Edited by Speedy, Dec 1 2013, 06:42 PM.
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Yurei Shojo
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The Wandering Spirit
Uh, wow, pardon if I'm intruding, Speedy, but aren't you taking this a little too seriously? And, correct me if I'm wrong, a little personally as well? I say just let them believe what they want and leave it at that. Even if they are wrong. They're only going to keep arguing for as long as you will. No one ever wins an argument.
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NakaTeleeli
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Naka the Honeywhite
Speedy, despite that you have a fair point, you need to lay off the aggression. I know we've had this discussion before, but as a moderator here your job is to stop fights, not flame them. I'm not asking you to compromise your own morals on issues. I'm asking you to stop getting into fights. Agree or not, your position does need to reflect on your behavior to a degree. Something as simple as word choice could often make the difference and still let you make your point.
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JBRam
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Don't play with fire, kids.
Spoiler: click to toggle
Naka stepped in, so I'm spoilering this entire post.
Edited by JBRam, Dec 1 2013, 07:04 PM.
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