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Females of VE, gather!; For nobody seems to know who you are.
Topic Started: Dec 10 2011, 06:07 AM (9,484 Views)
Ash

Alright, against my better judgement, I think that I'm going to throw in my opinion in here. Despite the fact that an argument about this with me can become really heated really quickly, I'm going to do my best to stay calm. Won't be too hard.

On the broad lines, my view is similar to Speedy's, but with a couple hues that differ.

I don't believe that forgetting to call someone by their preferred pronouns means that you're a "dick", or bad in general. Everyone makes mistakes. As long as you make an effort to change that internally, you're fine. I myself had a problem with how I see trans* people, though I doubt anyone other than Speedy will remember.

However, not making an effort to change how you refer to them, or even worse, outright refusing to do so, shows an extreme lack of tact and that you just don't care about how the other person feels. Many trans* and non-binary people, if not all of them, already have to deal with extreme hate and rejection. There is a huge possibility that being referred to with the pronouns of their assigned sex will remind them of all of that. And while it is probably not something that will make them start moping, they will certainly feel uncomfortable, to different degrees depending on the person. It's not as if I, as a cis male, got called a "she", and I just laughed it off. It's as if you refuse to stop calling your overweight classmate "the bus" or something like that. Maybe it's his nickname, maybe you don't realize it really hurts. But that kind of non-acceptance can destroy a person. Misgendering on accident is understandable. Misgendering on purpose is a recalcitrant insult.

Yurei, I must say that this is indeed a really important issue. I assume that people who don't have much contact with that may not see it that way, but I am the Ghost Of Christmas Past And Political Correctness And Tact and I have quite a few friends who aren't cis. And since importance is in the eye of the beholder, I can say that this is a pretty important matter to me. It's fine if you don't see it that way, but you should understand that other people do.

JB, I'm leaving you for last over here because I had to calm myself down several times before and while writing the reply to your post. I don't know if you're afraid of Naka or if you think that spoilering a post will stifle the consequences if there are any, but... I don't see the point in spoilering that?

I'm gonna start with the part that was originally under a spoiler.

First off, your making fun of gender-neutral pronouns seems to me like a cheap and almost puerile way of undermining their legitimacy as chosen pronouns. I should probably remind you that most if not all of us go by handles and nicknames. Speedy, Ash, Stabby, Retro, you name it. Some of those aren't even English words, like YureiShojo over there. And some of those aren't even words at all. Your own handle. I don't see how it's so hard to refer to someone with a word that isn't in the English dictionary when all of us do it all the time. Constantly.

If you feel uncomfortable referring to someone by their preferred pronouns, then that's fine. But make a damn effort. It will feel less uncomfortable after the fifth time. It will feel more natural after the fifteenth. After the fiftieth, you'll have no problem at all. It's just a matter of getting used to it. More importantly, it's just a matter of putting the other person's well-being before one's commodity. Yes, it might be less uncomfortable to call them something they don't want to be called. It's also uncomfortable to try and make the effort to stop calling Brian "the bus" so that he doesn't feel as bad when you talk to or about him. But in the end, if you're not doing it, you're just putting a slight comfort raise for you over someone else's identity and mental well-being, and that, in my opinion, is extremely self-centered.

Which brings me to the next point. Calling someone by their preferred pronoun is never an insult. It's not something that strips them of their humanity. Not doing it, on the other hand, is what does that. Refusing to do it is just a big "Fuck you and your gender identity, I don't care about your feelings and mental well-being as long as I get to not use this word that makes you more comfortable about who you are and how you feel about your own self and that reaffirms your identity". Calling someone by their preferred pronouns, especially if it's a non-binary person since those people meet many more obstacles regarding acceptance than other trans* people (see: this thread), is not only not an insult but actually an act that reaffirms who they are and reassures them that no, they're not freaks. No, they're not unreasonable. No, they're not weird. No, they're not mentally fucked up. They're just people that have to deal with a lot more bigoted attitude and insults against them in their lives. You really shouldn't be adding to that pile.

About "carrying that list in your pocket". Seriously? Is it that hard to remember that Speedy's a guy and that Min's a girl? That Milk is a guy and Sel is a girl? Why would you need a list to remember that? Why do you need a list to add the one entry that says "NB" instead of "Guy" or "Girl"? Is it really that hard to remember the gender of one more person?

And now, let's step into what you said outside of the spoiler for the conclusion.

You most probably know Min. You most probably refer to her as a "her". You're using her chosen pronouns that reflect her gender identity.
You most probably know Retro. You most probably refer to him as a "him". You're using his chosen pronouns that reflect his gender identity.
You most probably know Fluffy. You most probably refer to her as a "her". You're using her chosen pronouns that reflect her gender identity.
You may or may not know Michiyo, that is irrelevant. You flat-out refuse to refer to xem as "xem". You are not using xyr chosen pronouns that reflect xyr gender identity, thus undermining xyr legitimacy as non-binary.

Non-binary people who prefer non-binary pronouns aren't "lording" over others. I don't even know where you got that from at all. It doesn't place them on a pedestal nor does it strip off their humanity. Being called by another pronoun does not redeem them of everything else. They're not automatically protected by "better not say anything negative about anyone with this label because if you do you're a hater". Guess what, they get much more bigoted shit than cis people by a huge amount. They are people just like any other and being polite to them doesn't change that. And for someone who "doesn't like labels", you sure are pretty adamant in trying to slap the "male" or "female" label on them through refusal of usage of their chosen pronouns. By calling them as they are asking you to be called, you are not putting them above others. You are putting them at the same level as others. It is by not doing so that you don't recognize their individuality and identity. That's not putting them at the same level as others, since you are disrespecting them and overlooking and undermining their identity. And if you really think that "non-binary" is a label that doesn't let them do this or that because "that's not that this label does", then you're looking at the wrong label. You should be looking at the "male" and "female" ones. The ones you're trying to slap on them as you attempt to strip them of the freer NB one.

As a final note, I am not even going to pretend that I didn't see those "they is only plural" people. It has already been said that it is not the case, and if you can use it for situations when the gender of the person is unknown, I don't see the reason why you can't use it when the gender of the person is non-binary, unless you're actually trying to make them uncomfortable. Hell, I've know people who actually prefer to be referred to as "it" because that makes them more comfortable and they feel it fits best for them. And if you're putting grammar correctness over someone's mental well-being, then that says some things about you as a person, and none of them are good.

PS: This whole topic is about making sure people get called by their preferred pronouns. Let that sink in. This whole space that you're talking in was created with the sole purpose of promoting exactly what you're fighting against. So this might not be the best place to fight this battle.


There we go. I'm gonna stuff my face full of candy to try and wash off the taste of the rainbow puke that's been coming out nonstop for the last two hours. See you guys later.
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JBRam
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Don't play with fire, kids.
I am not responding to this. If you want a response, please send this in a PM. I haven't even read it since it only serves to heat up an argument. I respectfully request that you spoiler or remove this comment.
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Speedy
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Fairly sure I've given up.
I respectfully disagree. Ash' post right there specifically addresses every and all issues made, and serves as a great point of why this topic exists.

I'd almost be inclined to quote it and put it in the opening post, if only it didn't specifically address some people. Perhaps I should ask Ash to take his time to write a summary for the opening post.

My main suggestion is that you actually do read it. Replying like that is somewhat disrespectful to someone who actually calmly responds to this entire ordeal.
Edited by Speedy, Dec 1 2013, 09:17 PM.
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Ash

I'm not gonna remove it since I feel it is relevant to the topic and I think that I adressed all of the points that you put forward respectfully, so I don't believe it will serve to heat up an argument. Please do read what others have written before emitting judgments on the reaction that very writing will provoke on people that aren't yourself. Besides, I don't see why I would have to remove or spoiler my first contribution to this topic when you have displayed your opinion freely and out in the open up until now.

I have PM'd you a copy of the post so that you may reply to it at your leisure if you so desire.
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NakaTeleeli
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Naka the Honeywhite
JB. The same goes for you, here. After I made my post, there was no need to continue fighting. I would expect better of the moderation team.

Now I've gone and got all riled up too. This argument ends here. I don't care who thinks it's not "arguing" or "flaming".

edit to be a little less aggressive, myself.
Edited by NakaTeleeli, Dec 1 2013, 10:12 PM.
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JBRam
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Don't play with fire, kids.
Apologies, Naka. I hadn't seen your post until I hit post on mine. That's why I spoilered it.
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NakaTeleeli
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Naka the Honeywhite
Okay, I think everybody's calmed down. I think a lot of us handled things last night a little less than perfectly, myself included. I tried to put a stop to the fighting without actually resolving anything. In turn, (at risk or riling people up again) I'd like to make clear what I expect of people here on the forum and give an explanation as to why.

I do expect people to refer to people using the pronoun the other would prefer. However, I also don't expect anybody to bend over backwards for everybody else's preferences. I think "he", "she" and the singular "they" where necessary would suffice. As nice as it would be to have a proper gender-neutral pronoun, what we have is something that hasn't been accepted by the main population, and for the most part is only used by small circles with strong opinions that have a common use for it. The vast majority of people don't even know it exists, much less feel it's a necessary or legitimate part of our language. This doesn't mean an effort to spread it shouldn't exist, but I'm not going to expect its use of people. Language is very bendable and adaptable, it's far from static. "They", though commonly used to refer to a group, is the best we have that's gender neutral and has become much more commonly used that way. Because it's commonly used and accepted that way it's become a more legitimate part of our vocabulary. Perhaps it's not perfect, but it's the best we have.

That said it is important to use the pronoun the other person prefers. This is as simple as giving them the same rights we already have and perhaps take for granted. ie being referred to with a word that doesn't feel like an insult. The importance of this is perhaps lost on many people, myself included, because I think many people don't as strongly identify as one gender or the other. For many it's just sort of something that is. If I woke up the next day as female I'd probably just get used to it in time and move on with my life. But that's because I don't have a strong gender identity, and I think many people are very similar. It's hard to understand that there are others that do have a very strong identity and in the same situation would instead feel like they're trapped in someone else's skin, and that their real skin is out there somewhere. They're trapped in someone else's life, not their own. Worse yet, they may be born that way and have to live their lives that way.

So it may be difficult to grasp, but I don't think I'm asking for much of everyone. I'm simply asking that everyone treat others with respect (a reminder that it doesn't really matter what you think respect is. It matters what the other person thinks respect is). And to have an understanding that others may feel very different about things than ourselves.
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Naku Nyame
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The changed Naku
I'm sorry I indirectly started that. I personally didn't mean to do that. I just wanted to state how I felt about people calling me about a gender neutral pronoun.
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RenScorch
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Programmer, software breaker, hardware destroyer.
I prefer gender neutral pronouns.

However, the web will be the web. Call me whatever you want!
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Yurei Shojo
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The Wandering Spirit
Well, that's a coincidence if I've ever seen one.

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