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| Starting your own business; an itch that is hard to scratch. | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 21 2005, 07:21 PM (366 Views) | |
| + Bird-E | Oct 21 2005, 07:21 PM Post #1 |
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I know many of us are interested in starting our own business, going into freelance work, etc. Its the same everywhere I go. I know I want to get my feet wet with a bit of freelance work. These 'businesses' that are popping up are potential competition for Webfuzion Media, unless affiliated. So this brings me to a few questions. I'd like to ask Zeerus, or anyone else with business knowledge, about this. You dont have to answer any, if you feel that you dont want to be aiding these 'businesses' that may later (very unlikely) challenge Webfuzion Media and steal clients, etc. This is purely for interest, for me, and for others who want to make some sort of living out of their passion. [I remember Zeerus said somewhere in textonic that he'd be writing articles on some of these questions, so if they're still in the works, you can leave them unanswered.] Get into Enterprise ++ I'll explain my motives behind why I want to do this. I feel that it'd be safer to get a bit of experience in this, while I'm still living with my parents, going to school, etc. From information gathered from previous posts and articles I found, I gathered that you need to register with the government about your income, etc., and begin promoting yourself. These were geared more to people who have full time jobs, so once again I thought that itd be safer trying it out in my current situation. Zeerus is the only person I know (my age), that is actually doing this. Would you say that there's less impact when starting a business at this age, still going to school, living with parents, etc.? (this answer would really help me because without concerns for paying for living, etc. I can focus more on saving up for programs, equipment, etc.) Troubles ++ One thing I'm concerned about, pay. I'm not worried about not having a steady flow of income, I'm worried about being undercharged for my work, considering my age. I mean, if you saw some kid charging large amounts for websites, without any degree, or certificate of achievement, etc. you wouldnt want to pay them that much would you? I'm 14, going on 15 early February. Still young. If I were someone else (who didn't know me), i'd want to be cautious if I was going to ask me to do work. Hope that made sense. I'm currently in grade 9, capable of learning in a grade 11 multimedia class. After reading the book Job Guide 2004 (australia), I noticed that all the career options had a minimum of grade 10 completion. Would I still be able to do amateurish business under these career names? Finding Clients ++ A part of this was touched upon in my 'troubles' question. Is it hard to get clients to trust you, considering your age? Or do you try to dance around this until they ask you, etc? Other than make a site and promote your work over the net, how else do you go about finding clients? I was thinking fliers, but I havent ever seen a flier that promotes a web designer. Do you go around to places and ask if they're interested in a website, print work, etc.? I dont know if any of that made sense, I started to forget what I was writing about. Id appreciate any help, or discussion about this. |
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| Hacker-X | Oct 21 2005, 07:25 PM Post #2 |
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Well, just a hint, or maybe its just common sense, make sure you won't get ripped off when you make a site for a client, make sure they agree to a contract and pay you before doing anything... |
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| Zeerus | Oct 24 2005, 03:07 PM Post #3 |
Spank My Monkey!
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1. I find that starting abusiness at a young age is much easier because you don't have to pay for living expenses, food, etc. unless you have really screwed up parents. And when you're in school you get access to educational versions of programs and become eligible for tons of benefits. 2. Don't worry about pay. Charge what you think is reasonable. So far I haven't been taken advantage of. I always present myself in a professional manner. Make sure you dress nice and bring along a resume and past referalls. The average price for a complete site design is $1200 to $1500 US dollars. Don't be affraid to negotiate prices as well. One important thing to remember is to get a down payment of at least 25% so you know you won't get ripped off. As far as education, don't worry about that. IF you're looking to get a job at another design firm, chances are you'll need a Bachelor's (2 year) degree in digital media. But as long as you present some high quality work to your potential clients they shouldn't have a problem with your level of education. I suggest taking as many design classes as you can, and also take certification exams at w3schools. 3. Finding clients can be a real pain. GEnerally I create promotional items like posters with my URL on them, and hand them out. I also visit local business' and ask them if I can leave some of my business cards, or a flyer or two. Chances are, the owner himself will look at the poster or business card and call you for some work. It's a subtle way to attract new business. Most of my clients trust me because I present myself as an adult. Like I said, make sure you dress professionally, speak clearly, and present yourself as an adult. I hope this helps you. I'll be compiling this all into one large design guide sometime in the future. :smile: |
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| + Bird-E | Oct 25 2005, 07:20 AM Post #4 |
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Thanks for the help :). Lately I've just been reading and reading about what its like to start a business/freelance. I dont want to try it till I save up enough money to buy equipment, which will be like a year and a half of hard work ($8/hour, 5 hours a day, 5 days a week+ $60/sunday). Assuming that I dont get laid off after the christmas period, and I'm not garunteed that many shifts. [off topic: sorry I've been inactive, Ive been trying to sort things out in my life. I also dont want to post too much needless chatter, so I'll be trying to think up some quality posts.] |
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| + Bird-E | Oct 28 2005, 05:46 AM Post #5 |
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[ugh... double post] start up companies are popping up everywhere. Some people just have a knack for photoshop, and because of this they decide to try and make a living out of it. I dont want to seem like one of those people. Because everything is in the works, Im finding it very hard to seperate myself from this herd. Anyway, complete site design- average $1200 to $1500 O_O. Could you define 'complete site design'. I was thinking maximum around $500 AU dollars. $1500 USD converts to $1987 AUD. Thats a whopping amount. If you would, could you post what you generally charge as a quote for your clients? I'm just thinking, that large amount would surely turn off potential clients. Having read a bit on it, I now realise that charging such amounts is necessary. I mean, you need to pay for living costs (if you've moved out), equipment, taxes, etc. If you do charge average $1200, do you find it difficult convincing clients that its completely worth it? I know that my parents would surely think I was crazy, if I charged that in two or so years time. |
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| + Missingo | Nov 6 2005, 09:30 PM Post #6 |
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Its obvious you cant live off webdesign, unless you have a good good development team, and if you have alot of time on your hands...and if you have good advertisement so people actually know you exist...with so many designers and programs... theres really no point in starting a business...sure you can make a small business and just get some extra cash off it... but unless you work for a real company I doubt you can make it...but thats just my opinion anyways... also the thing about the programs... why are you gonna work so hard to buy programs that you can get for free?? all that work..and I bet you that some of the very friends you know have them... I admire your moral, and your desire to try and do what is right... cause no matter what.. downloading cracks..is ILLEGAL. PERIOD.. although I shouldnt be talking.. But Im not a illegal freak.... I only have one program that I got off(non legally), all my other ones I deleted and discarded..... I wish there was some way we can get to companies not to put out any try out versions...they should do what "Pro Tools" did, if you would like to try the product, then youd have to go to a seminar.... and they show you what it has to offer... anyways.... hows "Studio Hybrid" coming along? |
| Its too late its too late....they wont let go...they wont let go...follow my foot steps through that open door...open door....It must be very under the heart that makes this place so insane youll find in time that the gates have been upon | |
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| + Bird-E | Nov 7 2005, 01:48 AM Post #7 |
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Thanks for your feedback. I dont want to sound like some 'do-it-right' freak, but I guess I feel sorry for those that payed for all their programs and did it 'the right way'. I mean, if I bought some expensive things for work, only to find that others have downloaded it illegally and were stealing business away (lets face it, most people that want a site probably wont know the difference between a guy (or girl) with a degree/hand coder/truly skilled person and someone who 'poses' (dont quote me on this later), who one day decides that they're 'good' at webdesign/graphics/whatever.), then I'd be pretty annoyed. Scrap that. I'd be looking for blood. But I cant talk, because I'm one of those 'posers'. I agree with you on the not-being-able-to-live-off-webdesign thing, but until I get some other direction in life, I'm going to ride this wave (and probably fail). But it'd be worth trying. The problem with me is that in a way, I live to work, as dumb as that may sound. I feel uncomfortable not being productive in some way (maybe doing some art or something). The internet has pretty much replaced my social life. Everyday its the same thing, go on the computer for five or more hours (much more if its the holidays/weekend), and I dont even know what I do on it. Sad isnt it? So what comes with a life of computers/no social life/geeky and nerdiness, are things related to that. All my friends are saying they want to save up for this or that (this or that being things like bmx bikes, body boards, things not associated with computers/internet). Then I look at what I want. Programs. A new computer. Maybe an ipod (but those are a fad here so I dont want to seem like I'm a sheep). Anyway, I'm just rambling on here. Back on topic- I have barely progressed on 'Studio Hybrid'. So far it hasnt left my sketchbook (yes, I sketch out designs until I'm happy with them, Sad huh?). Just got a few more things to wrap up before I begin fleshing it out. I want it to represent the highest level of my skill, not something that I'll later think 'omg, thats so bad, what was I thinking? I could do better now'. So I'm trying to 'master' browser compatibility in CSS coding (which I cant do until I figure out how to set up mySQL on my localhost). Just looking back over this, I sure do put a lot of things in quotes and brackets. |
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| + Missingo | Nov 7 2005, 01:18 PM Post #8 |
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warconrecords.com is looking for designers...go to there FAQ page.. the best way to go is for Record lables, there looking for artists of any kind, not only do you get your name REALLY advertised because they will refer u to others.. but band will come to you for your designs.. So I advise you give it a try, you too zeerus, it might help your business. ALthough when I mean designers, Im talking the wierd stuff, All bands look for a tragic/sad/emo type of look with a mix of antich and natural things...its wierd..I admit it.. take for example thechariot.com the site design(not the flash) is the kind of art theyd want.. I really dont know the name to this type of art...but all I know is, the only times I do it is when Im messing around in photoshop and I get lucky and it comes about..but if I try to actually do it...Ill get something lame..lol.. anywyas.. go to www.purevolume.com thats the HOME of all local bands nation wide...its become quite famous every local band out there knows about it... just browse around for more known bands that are in the front page..and look at there contact info... usually a band will pay up to 100$ for 1 logo...so its a good profit.. so yea...good luck |
| Its too late its too late....they wont let go...they wont let go...follow my foot steps through that open door...open door....It must be very under the heart that makes this place so insane youll find in time that the gates have been upon | |
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| Zeerus | Nov 8 2005, 04:28 PM Post #9 |
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Spank My Monkey!
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just to extend on living off web design. Let's see, Mike Davidson (http://mikeindustries.com) is a freelance web designer who recently started his own business. He makes a six figure income (over $100,000 for the mathematically challenged) yearly ad runs one of the most popular blogs on the web. He's also the creator of sIFR Paul Scrivens (http://9rules.com) is a freelance designer with something as simple a blogging network. If he wanted to he could sell that network for millions easily. I could go on and on with a list of people who live off of web design, but I won't. You do realis ethat the average asking price for a corporate website is $10,000. It takes about a month to complete a design that large. An average designer can handle four projects that large at a time. Let's see, that's four $10,000 websites a month, times twelve months. I'd say you can make a pretty sweet living off just web design. as for buying programs, I pay for all of my programs in full so I'm not the one who ends up in jail for software piracy. I don't care what everyone else does. They can't acquire plugins, use other Adobe Products, and they'll always have a guilty conscience. and on one final note, when you start a business you must be ready to invest some of your own money for programs to begin with. During the startup process I set aside a good amount of money and acquired Adobe Photoshop CS2, Macromedia Studio 8, a digital camera, and some other goodies, all legally mind you. it's just the right thing to do |
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| + Missingo | Nov 8 2005, 04:41 PM Post #10 |
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quote"as for buying programs, I pay for all of my programs in full so I'm not the one who ends up in jail for software piracy. I don't care what everyone else does. They can't acquire plugins, use other Adobe Products, and they'll always have a guilty conscience. and on one final note, when you start a business you must be ready to invest some of your own money for programs to begin with. During the startup process I set aside a good amount of money and acquired Adobe Photoshop CS2, Macromedia Studio 8, a digital camera, and some other goodies, all legally mind you. it's just the right thing to do " good for you Zeerus!! thanks for sharing your opinion! well, first of all you have to be really inorder to have those type of designs and programming... Obviously you have to know your stuff before you can go on starting a business... well thats my input.. |
| Its too late its too late....they wont let go...they wont let go...follow my foot steps through that open door...open door....It must be very under the heart that makes this place so insane youll find in time that the gates have been upon | |
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| + Bird-E | Nov 11 2005, 12:42 AM Post #11 |
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i personally believe that if you quote a $10 000 site, then youd have to have a good reputation or some pretty bad-a** work in your portfolio. Just a reminder, piracy comes in many forms. To start a business and aim high is to prove that you're going to fail. Work with small goals, is what I say. Until you're confident enough to make that leap. One thing thats got me thinking though, if I were to buy all the things that Id use in a business (they're called assets, arent they?), then how could a sole trader get messed up in liabilities if they didnt borrow money from anyone? Are there some sort of ongoing fees of maintaining a business or a doing-business-as name (in relation to graphic/web design work)? Buying all those 'assets' (hope im using the right terminology) would break the bank. Id have to be saving up for a fair while to have enough to afford it, and have some left over for other things (we're talking a year or two from now). Thats assuming that I dont get laid off after the christmas period (im expendable) .Im such a nerd for looking that far ahead :P. Maybe its best that its so far ahead. All that time to improve. All that time to mature. Also it works out too, because next year is generally the year that people my age (in australia) can start apprenticeships and stuff. This is not something i'm going to jump into head first. None of that 'wake up, play around in photoshop then decide that your work is good enough to earn money'. I know what its like when people think badly about you because of your age. Age, or qualifications for that matter. I dont want to seem like some kid who learnt html in school and decided that they're pro (heh, we dont learn html and web technologies till next year. All my work has been self taught). I'm taking a leaf from your book zeerus, and am going to do things 'the right way'. The fact is, i'm still young. Im not looking into getting a highly-regarded designer's salary out of this. Its just the experience, which will aid me later on when the fridge is empty and the rent is overdue (I think i said something similar in one of my previous posts). Nice discussion-material though :) |
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| Zeerus | Nov 11 2005, 08:54 PM Post #12 |
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Spank My Monkey!
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it makes me happy to see my business practices are influencing other aspiring designers. You're right, it's much more than just waking up and messing around in Photoshop. If I were you I'd start by asking for just Photoshop for Christmas, or possibly your birthday. As for coding, there are plenty of great freeware tools available. If you want to work with Flash then ask for SWiSHmax as a gift for Christmas or whatever. This way your parents don't have to break the bank buying tons of programs. study the programs inside out, and then do some freelance work. I find that doing free work for charities, etc is a good way to get your name out in the open, and it gives you a good feeling too. Once you've mastered your programs enroll in some professional design courses and then apply for a job at a popular design firm later on. By this time you should be somewhat older, and while this may seem like it'll take a while, if you're dedicated you'll have plenty to do along the way. the reason I suggest waiting to start your career is because you don't have the financial support required to start a business. Another suggestion would be to approach your parents as a professional, not their son. This will show them you mean buisiness. Show them some of your best work you've created and persuade them into funding your startup business or freelance career. This is a much quicker option that may potentially work. I suggest reading my 6 part series over at Textonic, http://webfuziondesign.com/textonic/articl...nce-life-part-1. I think you could really benefit from it. I'll be adding a second part on the 13th, and then another part every week after that |
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| + Bird-E | Nov 12 2005, 03:13 AM Post #13 |
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asking for programs for christmas/my birthday would be ideal, but theres always a catch. My parents are seasoned 'business people'. So there's always the conditions- ie. Using the programs for future work for them, or a cut in profits for the next 25 years (exaggeration). It may not sound that bad, but working for family members rarely works out. Theres always the arguments, the personal matters, then the family issues. How do I know this will happen? I gave them a small questionare back when my dad wanted me to make a site for him. None of the questions were answered. He read it, then said to me 'yea, sure, go for it' (or something along those lines). I explained to him that he was meant to answer them. He said he didnt know how, and it was my job to do all that. In other words, he expected me to know his company inside out, and even said 'you should know, you work for me'. I was speechless. He ended up getting my mum to fill it out. Cost- minimal (nil for me, all expenses go to hosting/domain). deadline- asap. what do you want in a website- Like yellow pages (yellow pages is a phone book). They were asking me for some huge site, which someone would probably charge around 7 grand for (maybe more, im not sure). I knew I wouldnt be able to do it. Whats more is my dad is one of those 'just make it happen' people. I havent spoken of it for about a month now. Another sad tale of my life. Just an example of how my parents would exploit me. Plus in my opinion itd be much more satisfying buying it with cash out of your own bank. Im definately waiting to start this. In the past two weeks or so (after reading tonnes of articles), Ive realised how difficult it can be. One more thing- I tried approaching my parents as a professional, not their son (in giving them the questionare). I was laughed at. end story. |
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| Zeerus | Nov 12 2005, 08:28 PM Post #14 |
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Spank My Monkey!
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I wish I lived near you, I'd be more than happy to help out with anything. I'll tell you what, if you'd like I'll accept you as an intern at WebFuzion Media, which means no profits for you, just experience and exposure. from what I've seen you know some Flash already, right? I suggest focusing on mastering Flash for now, which is definitely in high demand. Hopefully once the business season picks up again I'll have some good clients. This'll give you a chance to put a name behind some of your work. pm me for more info. My view is, if your parents recognize people have demand for your work (through me of course), they'll take you more seriously and may reconsider funding your own startup project. |
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| + Bird-E | Nov 13 2005, 07:06 AM Post #15 |
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That'd be great working for experience. But I probably cant do much anytime soon. My copy of flash isnt exactly legit either so Id rather wait around till I've saved up enough money. One thing I am yet to master in flash is actionscript. I can read and get a general understanding of it, but I havent gotten around to understanding the syntax/remembering how things are pieced together. I mean I can do some minor actionscripting, but the most functionality I produce reuses scripts salvaged from previous projects. |
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| Zeerus | Nov 13 2005, 10:02 PM Post #16 |
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Spank My Monkey!
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Don't worry about Flash, I have a legit license lying around somewhere around here. Let me dig it up and I'll send you the info. |
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| + Bird-E | Nov 16 2005, 08:05 AM Post #17 |
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Sounds like a nice offer, but like I said, I cant do much anytime soon. Assignments came out of no where and I have to settle in to my part-time job (just finished my second shift and I feel burnt out). I cant do this forever.... might have to drop design work for a while. Thank god, summer holidays starts in a month or so. Well thanks for the offer, I might be capable of helping out in the holidays. I'll have tonnes of time then. |
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| Zeerus | Nov 18 2005, 09:56 PM Post #18 |
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Spank My Monkey!
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no problem. I want to try and learn Flash myself anyway, so chances are I wouldn't ask you for much even if you did help me out. the same goes for you Missingo. I rarely ever ask for help, I like to do everything myself. outsourcing work or working with teams can often be difficult and stressful, so I prefer to work alone |
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1:34 AM Nov 26
