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game shopping; the thread that should never end...
Topic Started: Oct 17 2005, 03:55 PM (21,711 Views)
bluecrabfive
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had Driver, couldn't get past that opening part where you have to cruise around the underground garage, got mad, gave it to Noah. Then, Grim got a free copy where he works, gave it to me. Now I'm stuck in the underground garage again, thinking of putting it on my trades list. God, why does the opening tutorial A) have to be mandatory and B) be so fucking hard? I can't even *play* the game because I can't get past it.


That is a real bitch, huh? You can do it, don't just try to beat it in a night. It does suck though. Pretty weird, Gran Turismo with the liscences was the same way. Its like, ever hear of a learning curve Mr. Developer?

If you can get through that, I think you'll like it alot. Some shit seems totally unfair and you have to try it alot, but the missions are so short its not a huge deal. If you think Driver is bad, the same guys did a game called Stuntman that will make you pull your hair out its so tough. Beats the hell out of that new Driver did though yuck, stupid fetch quests plus idiotically tough oponnent AI.

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Hehehe, yeah. ;) Speaking of True Crime though, the videos of it look fucking great. If you've got the horsepower, check out the HD trailer for the first TC here:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsme...ntshowcase.aspx

I see it dirt cheap most times, I need to check it out. Not sure if that new TC is supposed to be any good or not.


Yeah, it is cheap as hell. I think this new Saints Row thing is the first game that emulated GTA III that the press has warmed up to at all. I can appreciate stuff that is different, shit I liked Dead to Rights and everybody hated that one. The second Dead to Rights got such bad reviews I'm pretty nervous to try it.

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You'd think it'd be a no-brainer. Bring it to the PC, from there port it to the Xbox...I don't know why they're sitting on this, unless they signed another contract with $ony so that it'd stay exclusive to the PSP/PS2 for a year or whatever. Seems like that bullshit is coming to an end, especially with MS paying off Rockstar for exclusive content for GTA4 on the 360.


I hadn't thought of that way but being designed for the PSP, that makes alot of sense. I saw where there are developing a Vice City Stories for PSP now, so probably the same deal on that.

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Seems like a lot of people are nowadays. I know people who are selling/trading off their older systems because they can play them on emulators via the DC/Xbox or waiting for the stuff to hit the Wii, etc. I guess it's not a bad way to go, I just prefer the original hardware for some reason or another.


Well, I have never even tryed an emulator on a PC. I guess I should. Planning on getting one of those sweet MS PC 360 style wireless controllers so I should give it a shot. Definitely want a pad of some sort.

It is really tough to get around to setting my stuff up. I'm talking 3 or 4 of those huge Tuperware containers, with piles of consoles, cables, transformers, controllers, arcade sticks, light guns, its just not any fun. I am already planning the set up in the basement, so I'm getting organized but with everybodies' stored stuff to deal with its a long term job. I'm motivated to do it though, its going to be real cool.
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Belpowerslave
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That is a real bitch, huh?  You can do it, don't just try to beat it in a night.  It does suck though.  Pretty weird, Gran Turismo with the liscences was the same way.  Its like, ever hear of a learning curve Mr. Developer?


If it just wasn't the *first thing you have to do to even start playing the game* it wouldn't be so bad. I just cannot believe they did that.

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If you can get through that, I think you'll like it alot.  Some shit seems totally unfair and you have to try it alot, but the missions are so short its not a huge deal.  If you think Driver is bad, the same guys did a game called Stuntman that will make you pull your hair out its so tough.  Beats the hell out of that new Driver did though yuck, stupid fetch quests plus idiotically tough oponnent AI.


Well, I'm still debating whether or not I'm going to take the time to even try to get through the garage(yet again). I played the part where you can just cruise around, and I wasn't real thrilled with the control(seems sim-ish). To make matters worse, it seems like the game has GTA-style police that will do any and everything they can fuck you up.

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Yeah, it is cheap as hell.  I think this new Saints Row thing is the first game that emulated GTA III that the press has warmed up to at all.  I can appreciate stuff that is different, shit I liked Dead to Rights and everybody hated that one.  The second Dead to Rights got such bad reviews I'm pretty nervous to try it.


Hmmmm, Saints Row, is that the one on the 360? I never tried Dead to Rights as every comment I heard about the game included some sort of statement about it being hard as fuck. I *should* have kept with that train of thought and skipped Ninja Gaiden Black...but no, I was dumb. ;)

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I hadn't thought of that way but being designed for the PSP, that makes alot of sense.  I saw where there are developing a Vice City Stories for PSP now, so probably the same deal on that.


It's the only thing I can think of for them not releasing it on PC and Xbox at the same time as the PS2 version.

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Well, I have never even tryed an emulator on a PC.  I guess I should.  Planning on getting one of those sweet MS PC 360 style wireless controllers so I should give it a shot.  Definitely want a pad of some sort.


Depending on what kind of gaming you want to do, I don't know that you're going to want a 360 PC controller. Granted, it'd be kind of nice for some games...but most don't allow for use of the analog pads in real analog mode, and other weird issues like that. For old school emulation, I'd go with something like that 3 in 1 JoyBox thing I got:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.v...e099b10b505f48e

That's just me though. :)

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It is really tough to get around to setting my stuff up.  I'm talking 3 or 4 of those huge Tuperware containers, with piles of consoles, cables, transformers, controllers, arcade sticks, light guns, its just not any fun.  I am already planning the set up in the basement, so I'm getting organized but with everybodies' stored stuff to deal with its a long term job.  I'm motivated to do it though, its going to be real cool.


I hear ya. Right now, I'd say 90% of my stuff is still in boxes laying around the apt. I don't know when I'll ever get around to setting it all up. Would be nice to consolidate some stuff, but I just don't have any systems where I can do that(like having a PS2 that plays PS1 games, thus reducing the console count by 1, etc).

Bel
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bluecrabfive
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Well, I'm still debating whether or not I'm going to take the time to even try to get through the garage(yet again). I played the part where you can just cruise around, and I wasn't real thrilled with the control(seems sim-ish). To make matters worse, it seems like the game has GTA-style police that will do any and everything they can fuck you up.


It does suck that bad as far as AI, they are ruthless. Still, if you can beat some of the "impossible", cheap ass missions in GTA, its doable. To me that game, Driver, was worth all the hype it got. They just could never quite repeat the magic.

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Hmmmm, Saints Row, is that the one on the 360? I never tried Dead to Rights as every comment I heard about the game included some sort of statement about it being hard as fuck. I *should* have kept with that train of thought and skipped Ninja Gaiden Black...but no, I was dumb. ;)


You don't know what Saints Row is? Don't you hang out with your buddies Bliggy and Air Raid overthere at AGVX right? Yeah, thats the big thing for 360 right now. The graphics are nice, especially nice looking splosions and stuff, other than being so "derivative" everything I have read has been positive.

As far as Ninja Gaiden Black, did you try Ninja Dog mode ("easy" mode) or whatever it is right?

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Depending on what kind of gaming you want to do, I don't know that you're going to want a 360 PC controller. Granted, it'd be kind of nice for some games...but most don't allow for use of the analog pads in real analog mode, and other weird issues like that. For old school emulation, I'd go with something like that 3 in 1 JoyBox thing I got:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.v...e099b10b505f48e

That's just me though. :)


No doubt. That would be cool for fighters and stuff especially. Didn't you say the MS Sidewinder or those Logitech PC pads are pretty decent for PC also?

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I hear ya. Right now, I'd say 90% of my stuff is still in boxes laying around the apt. I don't know when I'll ever get around to setting it all up. Would be nice to consolidate some stuff, but I just don't have any systems where I can do that(like having a PS2 that plays PS1 games, thus reducing the console count by 1, etc).


Oh, you have the X'Eye right, thats the Genesis and CD in one, plus the bulbous 32x. Can you run a Power Base Converter on that (or on the X'Eye at all will it fit)?

I would treat yourself one of the new model PS2 though they are really as nice a put together system build wise as I have seen. Hopefully they will last a bit longer than the first model. When they go on discount I just may have to get a back up for all my systems, its pretty awful really.
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Belpowerslave
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It does suck that bad as far as AI, they are ruthless.  Still, if you can beat some of the "impossible", cheap ass missions in GTA, its doable.  To me that game, Driver, was worth all the hype it got.  They just could never quite repeat the magic.


Yeah, that's true, some of the missions on any of the given GTA titles were hard and cheap as fuck, and I managed to beat them. I'll give Driver another shot, see if I can get out of the garage...

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You don't know what Saints Row is?  Don't you hang out with your buddies Bliggy and Air Raid overthere at AGVX right?  Yeah, thats the big thing for 360 right now.  The graphics are nice, especially nice looking splosions and stuff, other than being so "derivative" everything I have read has been positive.


I haven't been back to AGVX in over a year. I liked it and all, and I liked talking to people like Robert Holley, etc. but after a while the trolls just took it over and I spent more time killfiling threads than actually reading relevant ones and that's when it just got to be too much(and I left). That's why I'm pretty happy about the forums here, we actually get some Xbox conversation going. I really dig that. :)

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As far as Ninja Gaiden Black, did you try Ninja Dog mode ("easy" mode) or whatever it is right?


I did actually activate Ninja Dog mode, but after making it to this one boss than rides around on a horse while these fucking teleporters take pot shots at you, I just said "Fuck this". It was too hard, and way too cheap...and I'm not going to waste my time trying to beat the game just to prove to myself that I can. Thing is, I just wasn't having fun with it. Like with the GTA titles, they are cheap as fuck too, but at least I have fun with it. Quite honestly, I think I'm more in the Tenchu crowd when it comes to ninja games anyway. ;)

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No doubt.  That would be cool for fighters and stuff especially.  Didn't you say the MS Sidewinder or those Logitech PC pads are pretty decent for PC also?


The Sidewinder is kind of an odd thing to talk about: In one regard it's a good controller because it's so cheap and the fact that it's made by MS means that it'll work on any given version of Windows. On the other hand, the control pad is just fucked for anything other than games where you have unlimited lives, etc. It's not bad for MAME stuff, where you just need a controller, just something. It sucks ass for fighters, that pad is just horrible.

Not sure on the Logitech pads, never had one of those. With the 3 in 1 thing only being $20, it's like, why bother even trying the other stuff when you get to use either a Saturn, PSX or DC controller, you know? About the only reason I have 3 or 4 SideWinders is because I've either bought them at $1 at local GameStops or have been given them for free. ;)

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Oh, you have the X'Eye right, thats the Genesis and CD in one, plus the bulbous 32x.  Can you run a Power Base Converter on that (or on the X'Eye at all will it fit)?


Well, the thing with the X'eye is, yeah it's a SCD and Genesis in one...but it really doesn't save any space console-wise, you know? Like one X'eye only replaces one Genesis/SCD/32X combo machine. As for the PBC, it'll work with the X'eye as long as you take it out of the shell(kinda sucks).

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I would treat yourself one of the new model PS2 though they are really as nice a put together system build wise as I have seen.  Hopefully they will last a bit longer than the first model.  When they go on discount I just may have to get a back up for all my systems, its pretty awful really.


Pleasure Kitty used to have a PS2, the thin-ass model. It was pretty hip. Thing is, and I'm sure Eiji will fucking sign up for the forums if he were to read this, I just have too much on my {gaming}plate to go and get another system. That goes for the 360 too. It'd be nice to have a PS2, especially to play PS1 games on it, but I just don't need it right now. Once the PS3 hits though, I'm guessing that PS2s will drop to $20(just like the PS1 did when the PS2 hit) and at that point I may just pick one up to replace my PSX. I wonder if those Import Boot Discs like PS-X-Change work for PS1 games on the PS2?

Bel
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benstylus
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Belpowerslave
Aug 29 2006, 03:29 PM
I wonder if those Import Boot Discs like PS-X-Change work for PS1 games on the PS2?

Bel

I had the swap magic discs back when I had a PS2, and they did not work for PS1 games.
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bluecrabfive
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I haven't been back to AGVX in over a year. I liked it and all, and I liked talking to people like Robert Holley, etc. but after a while the trolls just took it over and I spent more time killfiling threads than actually reading relevant ones and that's when it just got to be too much(and I left). That's why I'm pretty happy about the forums here, we actually get some Xbox conversation going. I really dig that. :)


Yeah, but since they crosspost their crap to the Sega groups you get to read it there anyway. I just saw you had posted in a thread there (AGVX), it must have just been crossposted. Don't you just love all that XBox-3Shitty and Flopstation3 stuff?

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Not sure on the Logitech pads, never had one of those. With the 3 in 1 thing only being $20, it's like, why bother even trying the other stuff when you get to use either a Saturn, PSX or DC controller, you know? About the only reason I have 3 or 4 SideWinders is because I've either bought them at $1 at local GameStops or have been given them for free. ;)


Ah, yeah I have a ton of pads and arcade sticks that would be the way to go.

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As for the PBC, it'll work with the X'eye as long as you take it out of the shell(kinda sucks).


You mean just the exposed circuit board? Like I said, with my first one I cut the plastic with a jig saw so I could get the cables either to the Genesis 2 or the Sega CD 2. Its like solid plastic not hollow. You might not want to mangle your PBC but if you took a saw to it I be you could make it fit. ;)

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I'm guessing that PS2s will drop to $20(just like the PS1 did when the PS2 hit) and at that point I may just pick one up to replace my PSX.


No doubt, your right PSOne dropped to 49 bucks once PS2 came out or not long after that. That PSOne is a really nice machine too, I actually held onto mine and never traded it. Makes a nice travel console.
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Belpowerslave
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Yeah, but since they crosspost their crap to the Sega groups you get to read it there anyway.  I just saw you had posted in a thread there (AGVX), it must have just been crossposted.  Don't you just love all that XBox-3Shitty and Flopstation3 stuff? 


That's true, a lot of that crap does make it to RGVS in crosspost form, unfortunately. It wears me out to no end listening to the trolls profess why their system is so amazingly wonderful. Makes you wish you could get a hold of one of them and beat them to death with their system of choice(and if that were the case, I'd feel especially sorry for the PSP or GameBoy fans as it'd take weeks to kill someone with one of those things). ;)

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You mean just the exposed circuit board?  Like I said, with my first one I cut the plastic with a jig saw so I could get the cables either to the Genesis 2 or the Sega CD 2.  Its like solid plastic not hollow.  You might not want to mangle your PBC but if you took a saw to it I be you could make it fit. ;)


Wow, yeah I've not ever seen any PBC modifcations. I know over in Europe a PBC 2 came out that was built so that it could fit into the MD 2 models, but that's about it. If you get a chance, take a pic of what you've done and shoot it to me or post a link, I'd love to see it.

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No doubt, your right PSOne dropped to 49 bucks once PS2 came out or not long after that.  That PSOne is a really nice machine too, I actually held onto mine and never traded it.  Makes a nice travel console.

Right now, I can't find a place that sells the PS1(or PSX) for more than $25, except maybe Target or someplace that still sells them new. They did used to be $80 though, and then $50 and now $25 or so...so hopefully we'll see the PS2 do something like that now. Right now, a used PS2 is, like, $100 I think.

Bel
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16bitman
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I see Flatout 2 is out for X-box now. It is so tempting...
old school!
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David J.
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Trim the back of the PBC and it will work with a Genesis 2. Pliars or a Dremel tool works great.
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bluecrabfive
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Wow, yeah I've not ever seen any PBC modifcations. I know over in Europe a PBC 2 came out that was built so that it could fit into the MD 2 models, but that's about it. If you get a chance, take a pic of what you've done and shoot it to me or post a link, I'd love to see it.


Sure I can take a pic of the modified PBC and how it looks when its on the Genny 2. Its kind of wild because the PBC red (back) and black (front) on that side and sandwiched together, but because its solid plastic it doesn't affect it structually or functionally. I think I read it in an FAQ before I ever got one or did it though. It would look better if the edge was sanded with some really really fine sandpaper but it doesn't look bad.

Plus, I will shoot you a couple of pics of the kittens; two girls (grey tiger stripe and white with a little grey on the face) and one boy (orange tiger stripe). About a month old now, frisky buggers. I even got a picture of the kitty with the XBox just to say I did.
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Belpowerslave
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16bitman
Aug 30 2006, 07:28 PM
I see Flatout 2 is out for X-box now. It is so tempting...

hehehehe, I've still yet to see the first...;)

BTW, you going to join us in the Trading section with your huge-ass cache of trade-able items? ;)

Bel
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Belpowerslave
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Aug 30 2006, 09:18 PM
Trim the back of the PBC and it will work with a Genesis 2. Pliars or a Dremel tool works great.

What about the X'eye, does the same method work out there as well?

Bel
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Belpowerslave
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Sure I can take a pic of the modified PBC and how it looks when its on the Genny 2.  Its kind of wild because the PBC red (back) and black (front) on that side and sandwiched together, but because its solid plastic it doesn't affect it structually or functionally.  I think I read it in an FAQ before I ever got one or did it though.  It would look better if the edge was sanded with some really really fine sandpaper but it doesn't look bad.


Right now, I've got two Genesis model 1 units: One is with my Genesis/32X/SCD combo machine and the other is with my modded MCD2 unit. So, my PBC fits nicely on the Genesis 1 with the MCD2, and is pretty much my SMS...I just pop it off anytime I want to play a MCD game. Not bad.

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Plus, I will shoot you a couple of pics of the kittens; two girls (grey tiger stripe and white with a little grey on the face) and one boy (orange tiger stripe).  About a month old now, frisky buggers.  I even got a picture of the kitty with the XBox just to say I did.


Awesome man, would love to see some kitten/Xbox pics! :)

Bel
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bluecrabfive
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(David J. @ Aug 30 2006, 09:18 PM)
Trim the back of the PBC and it will work with a Genesis 2. Pliars or a Dremel tool works great.


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What about the X'eye, does the same method work out there as well?


I would assume so. What is it about the X'eye that doesn't let the PBC case fit?

I think if the length from the cartridge slot to the back of the machine is greater on the X'eye than on the Genesis 1, the only possibility would be to cut off the curving back part of the PBC.
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Belpowerslave
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I think, and this is I can recall correctly, it's not only the back of the PBC that makes it incompatible with the PBC, but also that the cart slot seems to be deeper(I don't know how that's even possible, I may just be loopy on this) as well. It's been a while since I attempted to get it to work with the X'eye, and now that I've got that other Genesis 1(that goes with the MCD2) it's not really an issue anymore.

I often times think of selling the X'eye and Nomad....but man, the Nomad is just so cool and the X'eye I could use as my Genesis/SCD/32X combo machine if my trusted model 1 Genesis and SCD die.

Bel
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bluecrabfive
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I think, and this is I can recall correctly, it's not only the back of the PBC that makes it incompatible with the PBC, but also that the cart slot seems to be deeper(I don't know how that's even possible, I may just be loopy on this) as well. It's been a while since I attempted to get it to work with the X'eye, and now that I've got that other Genesis 1(that goes with the MCD2) it's not really an issue anymore.


Yeah, I would just leave it alone since you have the regular Genesis it was designed for anyway. Its funny I have a CDX now and the cart slot is maybe a half an inch from the back of the machine so the back of the PBC hangs like 2 or 3 inches off the back. Looks retarded but works well. The 32x on the other hand, it will work but you have fuck with it...alot.

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I often times think of selling the X'eye and Nomad....but man, the Nomad is just so cool and the X'eye I could use as my Genesis/SCD/32X combo machine if my trusted model 1 Genesis and SCD die.


Yeah, the Nomad is so bad ass. I wouldn't have gotten rid of mine if a buddy hadn't lusted over it so much. He has hooked me up so hard with like a Neo Geo CD, Goldstar 3dO, Neo Geo carts, etc. (his shit *has* to be perfect), I thought it would be the least I could do. I think I gave like $80 for it NIB at Sega-Parts a few years ago.

The X'Eye I would keep it for the same reasons you say, if one goes bad you'll have a backup. I'm keeping all my brothers old systems as backups, I have a few others stored as well. Cart systems and cart games seem pretty damn hardy but disc based systems are another story. I have been thinking about getting new back-ups for my XB (they already aren't making new ones now), GC (wouldn't suprise me if it wasn't being manufactered) and PS2. Maybe at Christmas or after New Years when they are bound to be on mega clearout discount price.

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Yeah, I would just leave it alone since you have the regular Genesis it was designed for anyway.  Its funny I have a CDX now and the cart slot is maybe a half an inch from the back of the machine so the back of the PBC hangs like 2 or 3 inches off the back.  Looks retarded but works well.  The 32x on the other hand, it will work but you have fuck with it...alot.


Gen has a CDX, but I've not really messed with it much. I can imagine how dumb the PBC must look on it. ;) As for the 32X, I don't have to imagine:

http://www.whipassgaming.com/genesisreviews/32X_CDX.html

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Yeah, the Nomad is so bad ass.  I wouldn't have gotten rid of mine if a buddy hadn't lusted over it so much.  He has hooked me up so hard with like a Neo Geo CD, Goldstar 3dO, Neo Geo carts, etc. (his shit *has* to be perfect), I thought it would be the least I could do.  I think I gave like $80 for it NIB at Sega-Parts a few years ago.


Wow, yeah that's a nice deal. I think if I could get something like that for my Nomad, I'd go for it as well. Mine has the box, manual, everything. I got it off the net from a guy a long while back(I think I paid $150 for it). It was really nice to have for all those years before I got the iBook(and then the Inspiron). Now, I can't ever see taking it with me when the Inspiron and Gens would hook me up with any Genesis gaming I'd need until I got back home. ;)

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The X'Eye I would keep it for the same reasons you say, if one goes bad you'll have a backup.  I'm keeping all my brothers old systems as backups, I have a few others stored as well.  Cart systems and cart games seem pretty damn hardy but disc based systems are another story.  I have been thinking about getting new back-ups for my XB (they already aren't making new ones now), GC (wouldn't suprise me if it wasn't being manufactered) and PS2.  Maybe at Christmas or after New Years when they are bound to be on mega clearout discount price.


Just wait until around Feb/March of next year and I guarantee you you will be able to get an Xbox and PS2 for, like, $50 and a GC for around $25. Speaking of bargains, I got the X'eye at this sort of electronics fleamarket thing they have in Dallas called "First Saturday" for, I think, $15 or $20. Even had Mad Dog McCree in it(score!!!). ;)

Bel
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bluecrabfive
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Gen has a CDX, but I've not really messed with it much. I can imagine how dumb the PBC must look on it. ;) As for the 32X, I don't have to imagine:

http://www.whipassgaming.com/genesisreviews/32X_CDX.html


Well, with the 32x, its hard to tell whether is the connection or the connection in the machine itself. I don't recommend the CDX for the 32x, its kind of massive and tippy perched up there. Luckily theres just not that much worth playing on the 32x anyway. ;)

Don't you have that cool 32x FAQ archived on your site?

I have had a couple 32x's and I have always had problems with, I don't know, weird locking up problems. A game will play like a charm for 30 minutes and then it will lock and you can't make it work for awhile. No bumping the table or anything to make it lock either. Leave it off and it will come back up, like I said weird.

I wish I had one of those Neptune's, then I might not have problems with having to add on the 32x or those two massive bricks to plug in.
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Belpowerslave
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Don't you have that cool 32x FAQ archived on your site?


Well, I've got various FAQs for the 32X hosted on the site(all with the authors' permission). They are all in the 32X(hardware) quick review:

http://www.whipassgaming.com/genesisreviews/32X.html

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I have had a couple 32x's and I have always had problems with, I don't know, weird locking up problems.  A game will play like a charm for 30 minutes and then it will lock and you can't make it work for awhile.  No bumping the table or anything to make it lock either.  Leave it off and it will come back up, like I said weird.


White wire problems, I *guarantee* you that's the issue. Here's the fix:

http://www.whipassgaming.com/genesisreview...epairguide.html

Apparently it's the heat from the system that makes them come loose, I don't know. At any rate, just follow the walkthrough and it will, without doubt, solve your issue. I too, had this problem(as virtually every 32X owner has).

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I wish I had one of those Neptune's, then I might not have problems with having to add on the 32x or those two massive bricks to plug in.


That's my main, and possibly only, issue with the Genesis/32X/SCD combo machine. EVERY single one of them requires their own power brick. Ugh.

Bel
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bluecrabfive
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Quote:
 
Apparently it's the heat from the system that makes them come loose, I don't know. At any rate, just follow the walkthrough and it will, without doubt, solve your issue. I too, had this problem(as virtually every 32X owner has).


No doubt, thats what I thought it was. I have done it a couple of times, it just doesn't last long. Maybe they can be glued or taped down or something? This is my main problem with the 32x (it does have some good games, just very few of them), its a buggy piece of shit. If I had bought one when they first came out, I would be seriously pissed.

Quote:
 
That's my main, and possibly only, issue with the Genesis/32X/SCD combo machine. EVERY single one of them requires their own power brick. Ugh.


As bad as those bricks are, the CDX is the worse, its at least 50% larger than any of the other ones. You what the best bricks are, if they are Turbo Graphix style, with the cord and plug coming out of the brick. That way it doesn't take up anymore room. I don't know why more people don't or haven't done it this way.



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