Confirmed, MAME doesn't emulate sound

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Confirmed, MAME doesn't emulate sound; At least not correctly
Topic Started: Jun 15 2009, 07:59 AM (175 Views)
sheath	Jun 15 2009, 07:59 AM Post #1
Apollyon of the Wicker People Posts: 2,792 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: October 5, 2004	I've been lurching a lot over at spritesmind and observing. Most of these guys actually work on emulators, including MAME, but for Genesis emulators they require extensive testing on modified Genesis consoles to test and then troubleshoot their sound code. It is impossible to listen to the sound and decide it is accurate. Without actual hardware to test potentially for years, the emulation is not accurate to the original hardware. http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=386&start=465 -We have confirmed that MAME implements phase modulation incorrectly. Phase modulation is applied to the 11-bit fnum value before it is combined with the block data, or any other operations are carried out using it. This is done using the same process implemented in the MAME core, but without the apparent extra bit of precision which was added, which is also what breaks the precision loss when block data is 0. The incorrect calculations most likely originated from confusion over the sign extension of the phase modulation value when it was in the negative oscillation, which would create an apparent extra bit of precision, even when all significant bits had been discarded. By repeatedly disabling the LFO before it entered into the negative oscillation phase, and carefully measuring and monitoring the output from the YM2612, we were able to observe that frequency modulation values do indeed cut off after the 11th bit, not the phantom 12th bit which MAME creates.
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Belpowerslave	Jun 18 2009, 08:57 AM Post #2
Administrator Posts: 7,830 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: August 23, 2004	Hmmmm, I thought this was corrected...or on the way to being corrected when MAME made that huge change about the way sound was handled(I think it was around 0.130). They added some code, or something, to actually emulate the sound chips or whatnot. I'll try to see if I can find the info in one of the various "what's new" text files included with the MAME updates... Bel
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sheath	Jun 19 2009, 01:34 PM Post #3
Apollyon of the Wicker People Posts: 2,792 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: October 5, 2004	As of right now, MAME is not attempting accuracy on the audio or video. It's only attempting to get the hardware emulated to the point that the games will play without obvious glitches. The folks over at spritesmind have made it very clear that special filters will have to be introduced to the audio and video in order to enact anything resembling "accuracy". These filters attempt to emulate the effects of whatever output cable types one might want to use (i.e. RGB, Composite, S-Video) for the video, and the "muddying" of the audio as a result of running the sound through a cable. I'm not being completely anal about this mind you. I don't care about them simulating the sound of a 6x9 speaker directly over my head, and I don't expect them to simulate the quirks of every single monitor ever used for any particular game. That would be true accuracy, but I am very content when aliasing, color brightness and color transitions look reasonably close to the original and when the audio isn't subdued or glitchy. As I will probably never have that gameroom I always dreamed of, the Mamebox is pretty much my only outlet for this stuff.
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Belpowerslave	Jul 2 2009, 06:41 PM Post #4
Administrator Posts: 7,830 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: August 23, 2004	I guess I'd have to have an example of a game, whose audio is messed up, and have it be one that I can actually remember fairly well in order to be convinced. Thing is, play something that's had a CD-based home console port and listen to the music. I find it hard to believe that the BGM from VF, or something, isn't perfect when it sounds exactly the same on the Saturn(which just simply has the arcade's BGM redbooked). Now, granted, when you start up a game and it says "Sound Emulation not 100%", there's a good chance you'll be able to spot the issues(again, on games that have had CD-based console ports, I can spot it), but the MAME team is letting you know right away that those issues exist. On the various video filters, I'm with you: I love'em. I'm not looking for 100% video accuracy on any of these titles, I just want something that doesn't look like ass on my HDTV. :) Bel
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sheath	Jul 3 2009, 08:07 AM Post #5
Apollyon of the Wicker People Posts: 2,792 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: October 5, 2004	Well, it's just like in the compilation discs, you'd have to know the original game to hear what went wrong with the audio. If I can ever get this Shinobi cabinet up and running I will definitely try to do an audio comparison at least. But I can tell you that the music coming out of that 6x9 is way louder and just stands out more as actual music than it does on my Mamebox or XBLA. They all sound about the same, but the effects and music are more subdued in emulation. I feel the same way about Final Fight in Mame as I did about it in that Capcom collection, I'd rather play the Sega CD game because the music is more than background ambiance.
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Belpowerslave	Jul 3 2009, 09:01 AM Post #6
Administrator Posts: 7,830 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: August 23, 2004	Are you sure this doesn't have anything to do with the settings in the "Sound" section of the MAME options? In there, you can do things to the sound that change the quality, how loud it is, etc. I usually jack the sound quality up to 48000, but that's about it. Bel
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sheath	Jul 4 2009, 08:07 AM Post #7
Apollyon of the Wicker People Posts: 2,792 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: October 5, 2004	I haven't noticed any settings that would allow me to increase just the BGM, I'll have to check again. I always play games in emulation using 48kHz, even though 41kHz is probably closer to the original output. One of the things I've noticed about console emulator authors is that they all have modified hardware that they test their code on. With MAME though I guarantee they're not testing the audio on original hardware, they're probably just using available documentation of the sound hardware and tuning to their own liking.
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Belpowerslave	Jul 10 2009, 12:02 PM Post #8
Administrator Posts: 7,830 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: August 23, 2004	Quote: I haven't noticed any settings that would allow me to increase just the BGM, I'll have to check again. Well, the MAME options won't let you do that, that's something you'll have to hit "F2" during a game to check on(will take you to the game's options). The MAME options just let you jack up the quality and stuff. Quote: I always play games in emulation using 48kHz, even though 41kHz is probably closer to the original output. One of the things I've noticed about console emulator authors is that they all have modified hardware that they test their code on. With MAME though I guarantee they're not testing the audio on original hardware, they're probably just using available documentation of the sound hardware and tuning to their own liking. I can live with that...just simply because, like the Genesis, it seems like some of the original hardware is a big factor in the sound's quality. Take away that limitation and we get something that actually sounds better...just not accurate in terms of how it sounded back on the original hardware. Bel
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sheath	Jul 10 2009, 04:43 PM Post #9
Apollyon of the Wicker People Posts: 2,792 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: October 5, 2004	Quote: Well, the MAME options won't let you do that, that's something you'll have to hit "F2" during a game to check on(will take you to the game's options). The MAME options just let you jack up the quality and stuff. Okay, I will definitely check that out. I've hardly messed around with in game options outside of joystick settings. Quote: I can live with that...just simply because, like the Genesis, it seems like some of the original hardware is a big factor in the sound's quality. Take away that limitation and we get something that actually sounds better...just not accurate in terms of how it sounded back on the original hardware. Bel Well, my main issue with that is the fact that developers weren't testing their games on modified hardware. Capcom never would have used such a shrill sound for the sword effect in Strider if they were testing it with sound quality straight from the audio hardware. I'm all for doing away with artifacts of poor signal quality, but these games were counting on that poor quality in too many cases for my tastes. I'm not kidding, I can't play Strider on my Mamebox (which is hooked up to my Yamaha tuner) because of how sharp that sword effect is. Please do me a favor at some point, listen to my emulation versus console section of the Genesis versus SNES page. I keep all of these files in one folder and periodically listen to them as one playlist in winamp. I honestly hear two totally different sounds out of each sample, to the point that I just can't stand the music in emulation and can pin it even when I don't know what's playing. Tell me I'm crazy or something and I'll make sure not to follow up on this topic on Gamepilgrimage.
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Belpowerslave	Jul 16 2009, 03:29 PM Post #10
Administrator Posts: 7,830 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: August 23, 2004	sheath Jul 10 2009, 04:43 PM Okay, I will definitely check that out. I've hardly messed around with in game options outside of joystick settings. * There are a few options I always enable in MAME Plus, like turning off the game info screen, enabling Hyperthreading, etc. It's a good idea to run through it once, just to get it all set and ready to go. Well, my main issue with that is the fact that developers weren't testing their games on modified hardware. Capcom never would have used such a shrill sound for the sword effect in Strider if they were testing it with sound quality straight from the audio hardware. I'm all for doing away with artifacts of poor signal quality, but these games were counting on that poor quality in too many cases for my tastes. I'm not kidding, I can't play Strider on my Mamebox (which is hooked up to my Yamaha tuner) because of how sharp that sword effect is. * Well, there are certain exceptions...there always are. I mean, you've heard my argument against using S-Video for the Saturn...it ruins the dithering effect that developers used, and counted on working due to the fact that via straight composite, it comes off alright. Same goes for the audio thing, there will always be games where the sound is a little much coming through a clean signal or whatnot. Please do me a favor at some point, listen to my emulation versus console section of the Genesis versus SNES page. I keep all of these files in one folder and periodically listen to them as one playlist in winamp. I honestly hear two totally different sounds out of each sample, to the point that I just can't stand the music in emulation and can pin it even when I don't know what's playing. Tell me I'm crazy or something and I'll make sure not to follow up on this topic on Gamepilgrimage. * It just depends...I don't know that I'd say I hear two completely different sounds, but rather I hear what sounds like a little distortion on the Genesis side, and a little cleaner sound coming from the emulation side. Here's a breakdown(please note that this is me listening to these files at my PC, via a 2.1 setup at a raised volume level): * Revenge of Shinobi: Make Me Dance - The Genesis version sound muffled in comparison to the Gens sound dump. It's almost like a sharpening filter has been run over the audio, much like you'd run one over an image in Photoshop. Now, that's not to say that the original Genesis audio sucks by any means, or that I prefer the Gens dump, that's just the difference I am hearing across these two files. * Golden Axe: Level 3, MUSHA: Level 5, Batman: Level 1 and Streets of Rage: Intro - Same here, but on a much smaller scale. The Gens dump doesn't seem to clean up the audio that much over the Genesis original. * Like I said, I can see how it could bother some people...just like the Saturn running off of S-Video bothers me, but I guess it all just comes down to a matter of personal preference rather than "this is better than that". :) Bel
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sheath	Jul 16 2009, 10:59 PM Post #11
Apollyon of the Wicker People Posts: 2,792 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: October 5, 2004	I think you're absolutely correct in saying that it bothers some people and not others. I do want to be clear that one person can prefer one sound or level of clarity over another and two people could argue forever and never reach a logical conclusion. I think we both agree though, that no emulator for any console replicates every game without alteration. I think this thread proves that emulator authors have no intention of perfectly replicating the original experience, but focus on replicating their perception of a "perfect" output instead. My observations on the audio comparison are spread over more than five car stereo systems, my home entertainment system and at least three different PC speaker setups. The folks over at Spritesmind agree with you, and go out of their way to mod their actual hardware to get as close to the straight chip output as possible. I like Genesis sound as much as anybody and generally don't mind the sound of the music in emulation. However, I've had numerous women, actually only women, complain about the high pitches of Genesis sound in general. When I've played some of the best examples of Genesis music to them they've admitted it sounded "okay" but they still didn't like the sound of the instruments as much as real instruments. At other times though, I have noticed a near instant irritation to the same songs recorded via emulation. Now this isn't anywhere near "scientific", because I haven't documented anything. But my experience has been that the sharpness of Genesis audio is as sharp as these people can handle, and only those of us who really love the sound to begin with can even stand emulation. That's not even considering sound effects that just aren't emulated correctly. Considering the game development process, which included numerous individuals experiencing the output of the actual console, it makes sense that developers would have coded their games differently if they had been testing their software on modded hardware or emulators.
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LoneCrusader	Jul 17 2009, 08:55 AM Post #12
The other pallet swapped ninja Posts: 1,057 Group: Members Member #33 Joined: March 3, 2005	Quote: However, I've had numerous women, actually only women, complain about the high pitches of Genesis sound in general. When I've played some of the best examples of Genesis music to them they've admitted it sounded "okay" but they still didn't like the sound of the instruments as much as real instruments. I'm curious to know more about your testing environment where you have access to random women.
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sheath	Jul 17 2009, 09:09 AM Post #13
Apollyon of the Wicker People Posts: 2,792 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: October 5, 2004	College town.
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Belpowerslave	Sep 10 2009, 11:13 AM Post #14
Administrator Posts: 7,830 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: August 23, 2004	Quote: I think you're absolutely correct in saying that it bothers some people and not others. I do want to be clear that one person can prefer one sound or level of clarity over another and two people could argue forever and never reach a logical conclusion. I think we both agree though, that no emulator for any console replicates every game without alteration. I think this thread proves that emulator authors have no intention of perfectly replicating the original experience, but focus on replicating their perception of a "perfect" output instead. That's probably true. I support them in that too, as like I said, I like how some stuff sounds better than it did on the original system, etc. Quote: My observations on the audio comparison are spread over more than five car stereo systems, my home entertainment system and at least three different PC speaker setups. The folks over at Spritesmind agree with you, and go out of their way to mod their actual hardware to get as close to the straight chip output as possible. I like Genesis sound as much as anybody and generally don't mind the sound of the music in emulation. It's just interesting to hear how the music was actually coming out before hitting the hardware. I agree that it's not 100% accurate to the originals, but when you're just listening to the music(no game accompanying it), the increased clarity of the sound seems to fit as you're missing the video and gameplay. Quote: However, I've had numerous women, actually only women, complain about the high pitches of Genesis sound in general. When I've played some of the best examples of Genesis music to them they've admitted it sounded "okay" but they still didn't like the sound of the instruments as much as real instruments. At other times though, I have noticed a near instant irritation to the same songs recorded via emulation. Now this isn't anywhere near "scientific", because I haven't documented anything. But my experience has been that the sharpness of Genesis audio is as sharp as these people can handle, and only those of us who really love the sound to begin with can even stand emulation. That's not even considering sound effects that just aren't emulated correctly. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that they never really saw or heard these games back in the day, so they have no real perspective on where and when this stuff came from. It's like when forum member Grimshade sees me playing Saturn, PSX or Genesis games: He often comments about how horrible they look and sound...because he never saw any of them back in the day. His first console was the DC...and shit, what a way to start, right? I mean, think about it: Gaming didn't really become that mainstream until the PS2...and by then things looked alright...3D was doing pretty good, all music was done with real instruments, it was a full package. So, take someone who has only been exposed to that...then hand them the original GameBoy. Of course they're going to sit there and scream about the shitty graphics and complain about how the sound hurts their ears. ;) Quote: Considering the game development process, which included numerous individuals experiencing the output of the actual console, it makes sense that developers would have coded their games differently if they had been testing their software on modded hardware or emulators. Agreed. Bel
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