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Hype Train; AitW: Revengance
Topic Started: Aug 3 2016, 09:06 PM (2,112 Views)
Void Dragon
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IT'S HERE.

KIND OF.

ALMOST.


Alone in the Wind Mk 'I stopped counting years ago!'



What is happening? What changes are coming? Will someone finally release me from this mortal coil?


-The official implementation of Tur's GBF combat system. When it was tested before, it seemed to be well received, and that it worked out fairly well.

- No factions. You heard me, NO FACTIONS. Where did they go? They're all dead. But so is most of the population. That just means you'll have room to forge your own later on.

- Where did everyone go? If you remember this map of Mar's, the Earth Sphere came down with a bad case of Mutually Assured Destruction. The current story will be set in UC 0195, 75 years in the future, and 50 years after a cataclysmic war resulted in the destruction of civilized society and the death of 98% of the Earth Sphere's population.

- "Why are we starting so far ahead? I wanted to continue my character!" Well, it'd be great if we could just start exactly from where we were. It'd be great to give all of our characters these fantastic endings. But the way that many (but not all) of the staff and I see it, we're not going to get anywhere by trying to reheat stories from years ago. Because, frankly, the 2014/2015 period of the board was full of High-grade Antagonism towards each other, plots being started and left incomplete, people arriving and leaving with no warning, 3 high profile bans, and all sorts of other nonsense that left the board and its story kinda messed up.

So yes, on the one hand, your character will more than likely be incredibly dead by this point. If the Great War didn't get 'em, the steady march of time would have. That does not mean that their legacy can't be carried on by their progeny. The characters of the modern day would be raised on the stories of their grandparents and parents, perhaps with a few family possessions from before the war.

-Because the world has gone to shit, a staple of the new era will be salvaging/looting. Yes, there are going to be rules for it, because someone would inevitably abuse it to hell and back if we were gentle about it.

-In addition to looting, one of the many things you can locate is recordings, audio logs, documents, things like that. The pre-war timeline will not be available from the start. As players locate fragments, the data will be added to the public timeline, along with a record of who found it and in what thread. These are not just about the factions at large (although they can be), but also about individual pilots (your own and/or others), politicians, civilians, people from all walks of like and from many different stations prior to the mass colony drop. That said, (and this is ongoing, as of now), players can submit 'records' via PM to me, and other staff (as long as they are up for it). These individual bits of info will be collected and processed for use with the Salvage system.

-Going back to Mar's map, you might have noticed that the world is completely and totally fucked! One of our goals is to create a set of maps to track not just player activity (travel, places a player has discovered, who is near who, places that have been looted out), but also map out settlements, and even group 'territories'.


I'm positive there is more to add, but I'm spacing out, so if I remember I will add it in another post.


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Warchester
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Professional strength asshole.

1. Not looking forward to this action point system. But whatever not like combat is required.
2. K, can work around that.
3. K. Disappointed no one put a hole in Antarctica....
4. I have family line I can make someone into.
5. Goody.
6. Not like anyone going to be interested in most of the history stuff. Knowing the type of people we tend to get here much of it will be "FIND DA GUNDAM BLUE PRINTS!" or so I suspect.
7. K, so... maps. Hooray!

right.... gunna need to talk to someone about my particular situation... with 3rd fleet or what remains of it if anything. Someone shoot me a pm.
Edited by Warchester, Aug 7 2016, 03:30 PM.
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Peace_Creed
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No Need for Titles

Not thrilled with the combat point system but I understand. I would kinda like a training session on how to properly combat now. Everything else is fine, workable, and doable.

Fantastic job lads and lassies.
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Turinu
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Also just as a heads up the combat system in the form that was prototyped on the board a year or so back may not be the final result; it's going to be picked apart and revised as necessary to properly fit the needs and style of the board.
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Warchester
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Professional strength asshole.

We could just stick to what we've been using for years?
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Spitfire
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Warchester
Aug 5 2016, 11:14 PM
We could just stick to what we've been using for years?
Every battle I've taken part here has always gone into a turmoil of OOC mess, generally because it boils down to two people not willing to take a hit and wanting to win no matter what.

Best way they go about this is by dodging an infinite amount of times, combat system like Tui's puts limitations on doing just that, among other nifty benefits.
Edited by Spitfire, Aug 6 2016, 07:53 AM.
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Turinu
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This new system attempts to remedy issues with dodging and blocking and the like by putting a limitation in place while still allowing one to choose their actions via freeform, even if points are associated with it. Certain actions are limited in their use per post, but have a definitive affect. For instance if you dodge in a post, you are definitively dodging that attack and thus will take no damage. If you are blocking an attack, you are definitively blocking that attack and taking no damage (Unless you want to get scratched for cool factor for both, etc, though I would certainly assume shields would have a durability limit before they start to wear down). And as there is a limitation to how much actions you can now do per turn (Plus more restrictive actions for dodging), each post cannot always be spent blocking and dodging every attack, as you'll then have nothing left over for going on the offense.

This will certainly help reduce, though probably not eliminate staff intervention. However, with action points clearly spelling out each and every action performed per post, it would make for resolving issues in a more quick and efficient manner (IE, they spent the points properly, but can they actually perform this action in such a circumstance, etc?).

This would certainly go ways in reducing OOC clutter in battle topics, which have been brought to grinding halts due to OOC chatter and arguments on actions taken during battle.

Freeform is good and all, however AitW's battle system, which utilizes the concept, is extremely outdated and the revisions that have been made to it are like trying to patch a broken dam with duct tape. It's not gonna hold for very long. While limited, at least this combat system still allows for freeform while providing a more solid structure for combat.
Edited by Turinu, Aug 6 2016, 08:51 PM.
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Warchester
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Professional strength asshole.

As I said in a past post. Combat isn't required. And while I'd like to still get a chance to kick ass and take names I would honestly not like to get math involved.
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Void Dragon
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While it would be nice to use the old system, unfortunately, history has proven that people cannot abide by the spirit of the rules. There have been only two battles in this (current) board's history that the staff hasn't had to moderate to hell and back. While I'm a fan of tried and true, if people can't get into combat without being powergaming asshats, the rules will have accommodate such conditions.
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Marcinko
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You know what doesn't require math?

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Edited by Marcinko, Aug 8 2016, 02:45 AM.
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Esdeath
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No. Bad Mar. No dice.
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Turinu
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If you feel you cannot execute some extremely basic addition and subtraction that doesn't even take a few seconds... then yeah, you don't really need to participate in combat. Mind you, it would probably take 1/1,000th of the time to perform your actions than it would take to settle an argument born from the old combat rules.

It's literally "I have 8 AP. This action to block costs 3AP, so I'll block the attack. Now that I've blocked it, this action to move costs 1AP, so now I'll move into position to attack from a more advantageous position. Now that I'm in position; let's attack! This action to attack costs 2 AP per attack, so now I'll attack twice. Uhp! That's 8 AP, so I can't do any more. Your turn!" And that then becomes "Alright I've decided how I'm going to spend my AP for this post, now I'll write out how it actually happens!"

This clearly spells out each and every action that has been performed. So then the other member responds in kind.

"Oh snap, this dude blocked my attack and started moving! I have 9 AP to spend... After he blocked my attack I guess I'll begin moving parallel to the enemy and get behind some cover... ahh, this debris on the battlefield should suffice! 1 AP for movement, 1 AP for getting into cover! Now that I'm under cover, his attacks are going to strike the cover. But those are attacks from a beam weapon! The cover won't last from such powerful attacks... darn! Now that the cover is gone, I'll have to move again; 1 AP. While I'm moving, I'll go ahead and jump into the air and get a clearer shot at the target. Now being on a higher plane than the enemy, I fire my bazooka twice down at the target. But damn this Bazooka takes up a lot of AP per shot due to its destructive potential; 3 AP per shot! But he's out in the open, so it should be a solid hit! That's all I'll be able to do this turn with 9 AP." And that then becomes "Alright I've decided how I'm going to spend my AP for this post, now I'll write out how it actually happens!"

And then so on and so forth with typical combat.

As a person who absolutely despises math and everything to do with it, I find this system extremely easy to utilize and keep track of.
Edited by Turinu, Aug 8 2016, 01:18 PM.
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Warchester
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Professional strength asshole.

Its less about the math and more about managing action points. "I have X amount of action points and have used Y to block/dodge. Now I have Z to attack with."

Which for me turns into, "Right... I can't attack with that, or that, or that, or that.... hmm.... does flipping them off cost action points?"

See what I mean? If I have a Bazooka and I've just blocked/dodged a hit and I want to counter attack and that bazooka shot is going to eat my remaining action points its not worth it. Because they're going to block it. Its about AP to Potential Damage economizing. Which is where MIN/MAX'ing comes into play for me. I'd want to lay as much fire as I can down range to potentially make them get hit by something. Rather than blow all of it on one powerful attack that they can block with a lesser amount of AP. So if I can force them to burn more AP blocking the incoming thus lessening what they can counter with OR use a little yet get hit by some of it thus causing damage which over time will culminate to a destruction of something which could lead to a victory, great.

The only way it could get more complicated is if you made us start keeping track of ammo usage and ammo load.
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Esdeath
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Speaking of, we're considering implementing ammo tracking due to the resource side of the new setting. Since you'll need to maintain your suits with resources found in threads, it would make sense for ammo to be taken into account there too.
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Warchester
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Professional strength asshole.

I wish I hadn't said anything.
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Turinu
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Personally not a fan of counting ammunition in anything but the simplest terms, and even then that's stretching it. I'm all for "Think logically; I can't obviously carry this much ammo" portions that require the occasional reload, and even then the thought "Man, I can only reload so much cause' I obviously can't carry this much ammo on me."
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Peace_Creed
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No Need for Titles

No ammo count.....like obviously any bazooka on here is a one, three, or 5rnd mag/rack.....I can see adding reloading here and there for "flair"/"intenseness". But nah, let make everyone go even more crazy........ O_e*twitch*
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Esdeath
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Honestly, if we do ammo counts, it'll be explicitly for what's being brought into battle, not overall for what's at base. Having people blow through thousands of rounds in a mission has been getting goofy, to say the least; Even in Wing, the worst offender of that shit, Heavyarms would and did run out of ammo quickly when doing that kind of stuff.

If base-side ammo things were gonna be a thing at all, I'd rather it be "spend x resources to replenish ammo" rather than actually counting out each bullet.
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Commissar Wolf
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I'm all for this. Good to see we're continuing on!

Plus, as a tabletop wargamer, AP systems aren't the most complex things to understand.
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Warchester
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Professional strength asshole.

I stand by my point.

I won't participate in combat that requires me to manage AP.

You all have fun playing war. I'll be combing ruins and gathering history.
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Lantern
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This all sounds really cool and exciting, great work (for what that's worth)!
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RottenVanilla
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Ya'll wonder why i don't do combat? This. This is why I don't do combat. Dodges for days, math, Ain't got time for that. Im more interested in this scavenger system yes please thank you.
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Warchester
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Professional strength asshole.

Vanilla you're more than welcome to join my character on its quests to seek out the old tech. The old history.
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Esdeath
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Like to just point out that the math actually helps curb the dodgespam, if not shut it down entirely. GBF found that it actually crippled most high-speed builds back during the original Beginners' Tournament.

So like, it's one or the other, really, and the math here's so simple even a grade schooler could do it. :V
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Turinu
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With that kind of thinking, looking back on the old system, the new system, and really any system that could possibly be conceived beyond trusting all of your actions to an RNG (Ohboy here comes Mar), the only way you would do combat is if you were fighting yourself in a topic, because that way you're avoiding all the bad variables that combat in a roleplay situation has when engaging in combat with other members of the board (Unless you both had perfect trust in each other and had no problem responding to that person's actions, but that would be besides the point as you wouldn't do combat with anyone else but them).

With the old system you have constant dodging, no one taking hits, minor chip damage and as a result, everyone and everything descends into an OOC argument that completely derails the topic. You can't really refute this, as it has happened many more times than it hasn't. With the new system, you do a little addition or subtraction, with some basic logic behind your actions, to try and avoid that. And it has been proven, aside from a small number of incidents (to which Gil can attest), that it pretty much works as intended.

The idea of this system is as such:
  • Avoidance of RNG to determine damage/block/dodge success rates.
  • Application of a set number of actions-per-post to prevent the spamming and use of cheap tactics.
  • Placing as little a limit on freeform as possible, while eliminating some of the flaws of a freeform system.
  • Bringing a greater level of creativity and logic to what can be done by a mecha, as well as creating physical limits as to what they can do, through the use of a customization system directly tied into the combat system.
  • Reducing the need for 100% administrative supervision of combat topics.

Is it perfect? Hell no! is it better than the old system? It certainly doesn't have the same track record as the old system (But it also doesn't have the negative track record of the old system), so I can't say whether or not it is. Only time will tell.

Rather than complaining about what you see and what you've seen other people do and state you won't do it whatsoever... what about actually nutting up and trying it? Provide some constructive criticism after you've gone through the paces of learning and trying out the system! Critics don't give bad reviews without actually trying out what they are reviewing. When it's time for the board to come back to life and the system is implemented, go at it and give your opinion then.
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Warchester
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Professional strength asshole.

Unless you're me and simply don't like the idea how micro'ing what you can and can't do based on responding to and defending against attacks. But hey Nilla you can tag along with me.

And that offers is open to anyone not wanting to bother with math in a game.
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Esdeath
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You mean, like, how combat was handled before?

Micro-ing has always been a thing. Hell, the old "Three Actions" system was micro-ing in the purest sense of the term, and was actually more restrictive in how much you could do in a turn than the new system. The only other big change is that the rules aren't as vague before, so abuse isn't as likely to occur.

Otherwise, combat really hasn't changed much. Hell, most people will probably keep fighting the same as they always have.
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Warchester
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Professional strength asshole.

Still enough to keep me out of it. That and I've done enough mecha combat for a while. So as I've attempted to do on several instances I'm going to do a non-combatant.
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Kazuar
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Not sure what I'm doing myself just yet. I like the GBF system but I may still watch in the beginning. Give a non-combatant and/or novice pilot a real chance for once. I'll have to see what I come up with.
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Loto Vialo
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Hm...this idea sounds vaguely familiar, but then again I can't remember where I've seen it before.

Any way there is something I would like to get clarified up front first. That is the acquisition of mobile suits, and where the actual technology of the post great war world stands. I'm assuming that mobile suits are very much like Gundam X where mass production designs have survived. Example the thousands of Daughtress and Jenice running around in Gundam X.

I'm also guessing that there are caches of mobile suits buried around as well. Example of this being turn A gundam. I'm also guessing we have a rose of hermes blueprint and EXA-DB type situation. I'm also assuming we are all earth bound as well.

The issue with the previous none ap system is that AITW has historically been a player versus player board. Instead of working to gather to write a better story people have been pitied against each other in a red vs blue type of scenario. There was also a very lose main story line with the majority of the site focused on the player versus player combat. I've experienced how things can devolve into a stand still, because of actions taken in battle, because you found a simple way of putting holes into your opponents master plan.

To be honest I'm no sure how this ap system is going to work out, but something that should be taken into account is the old question is this fun ? Does this new system make combat fun, or does it make it more tedious that people don't want to engage in combat.

On the subject of ammo and resources this lends itself to more close combat mobile suits, and suits with a high movement rate. For example a ground/land type is going to move faster in gravity versus a multi terrain suit. There are also units that can fly or hover to take into consideration.

On the front of ammo I think we can use a system similar to battle tech. This is simply for x amount of ammo there is a certain amount of shots. For example the Auto Cannon 20 has 5 rounds in each ton of ammo. Lets say it carries three tons of ammo which is 15 shots. Moving this to gundam the Zaku II 120mm machine gun has 100 rounds per a drum of ammo. We can assume that it can carry three drums into battle for a total of 300 rounds. Two of these drums are mounted on the Zaku as reloads. Put simply the Zaku has three tons of ammo for its 120 mm. The question is how do you relegate how many rounds are expelled in a single firing ? Is it ten rounds for each action with the weapon, or is it more ?

You should also take into consideration player versus npc forces. Your not going to have player versus player a lot in this type of world, since its not very advantages with a repair and rearm system. The player is going to need ways to gather said resources to keep there machine in working order. At the same time with out actually putting there machine in any actual harm, or serious harm. Example being: oh whelp your machine is damaged beyond repair, looks like your taking on other mobile suits on foot with just a bazooka. Now can you really say that is fun ?

Also you'll need to be careful on how open the world is to being a sandbox. Otherwise you might have players arguing with each other on what really happened during this great war, or over other things. Now mount up mech...uh wrong series. I'll leave you guys to what ever you are planing now.

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