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Ras' Tigermen Army log - list evolution and battle reps
Topic Started: Dec 12 2013, 04:47 AM (633 Views)
RasputinIII
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The Chosen
Something I really like on Ulthuan.org is there army logs - not about painting but about playing. So I thought I'd do the same here, to chart the gaming side of my return to the hobby and my development from rusty old time to Aussie tourney pro. Maybe. I'm a Brit, and I've only lived out here two years, so forgive the frequent references to Aussies being other than myself.

This log is also distinct from my Plog about the modeling side of this, Ind themed, WoC army. That can be found here http://s4.zetaboards.com/cotec/topic/9976441/1/

Contents:
coming later

The first army list
The first list is aimed at 2400pts etc / Swedish. There seems to be lots of comp tourneys in Oz, so this seems like a good base to work from. Probably also good to get used to the army without some of the "crutches" both systems hate so strongly.

Etc 2014 pack here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9urpdtq2papitrd/First%20Draft%20Rulepack%20for%20ETC%20WFB%202014.docx

Swedish comp pack here:
http://swfbr.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4494

Daemon Prince: Chaos Familiar; Scaled Skin; The Other Trickster's Shard; Dragonbane Gem; Charmed Shield; Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Slaanesh; Chaos armour; Daemon of Slaanesh. 470

BsB (Exalted Hero): Talisman of Preservation; Daemonic Mount (barding); Mark of Tzeentch; great weapon; Battle Standard. 246
Exalted Hero: Dragonhelm; Potion of Foolhardiness; Burning Body; Steed of Slaanesh; Mark of Slaanesh; halberd; shield. 174

15 Forsaken: Mark of Slaanesh. 315
Chaos Chariot: Mark of Slaanesh. 115
Chaos Chariot: Mark of Slaanesh. 115
5 Chaos Warhounds: Vanguard. 40
5 Chaos Warhounds: Vanguard. 40

6 Chaos Trolls 210
5 Hellstriders of Slaanesh: musician; standard bearer. 115

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth: additional hand weapon. 220
4 Skullcrushers of Khorne: musician; standard bearer; Gleaming Pennant; ensorcelled weapons. 337

2,397 points


This first post will act as an index page to link to battle reports within the thread as it grows. It will also hold this, the first list and the most current play tested list as reference.
Edited by RasputinIII, Dec 13 2013, 11:43 AM.
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
Daemon Prince: Chaos Familiar; Scaled Skin; The Other Trickster's Shard; Dragonbane Gem; Charmed Shield; Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Slaanesh; Chaos armour; Daemon of Slaanesh. 470
The DP is a better lord then either of the other two, and whilst I take a massive comp hit for him in Swedish, I can't create an army I like without him. The Tzeench SL on Disc is a very long way behind 2nd choice. He can't fly because primarily the model I have doesn't have wings. He's Ganesh, and Ganesh doesn't fly. But also its kind of comped out under ETC. Standard kind of kit. No breath because I don't fly. Slaanesh is good because its gives me AP attacks, helping deal with 1+ armour. I like the lore too, because whilst the whole army is medium fast, nothing flies, so being able to affect movement / choir is cool. My only fear is because he doesn't fly and the lore is very short ranged that I'm not going to get anything worthwhile off in T.1-2. So I might swap to shadow after playtesting.

BsB (Exalted Hero): Talisman of Preservation; Daemonic Mount (barding); Mark of Tzeentch; great weapon; Battle Standard. 246
nothing to say here

Exalted Hero: Dragonhelm; Potion of Foolhardiness; Burning Body; Steed of Slaanesh; Mark of Slaanesh; halberd; shield. 174
I really like the idea of this guy. Fast cav, very very fast, hitty, andbrings Iniative order flaming attacks where I need them. However hes 174pts, which makes him damned pricey. Keen to playtest, he may end up becoming more troops or a L1 death caster if hes not worth is points.

15 Forsaken: Mark of Slaanesh. 315
M6 with swiftstide, 2 ranks, totaly overpriced, but with 15-25 attacks I think they have some real merit over warriors (although I can get 15 Khorne warriors with the banner of swiftness for basically the same points).However these are soft on comp, much faster and are really good in buildings. Very keen to try these out as the mini block. My gut feeling is they will be ignored as a low priority by my opponent, cause some damage and ultimately keep there points on the table at the end of the game

Chaos Chariot: Mark of Slaanesh. 115
Chaos Chariot: Mark of Slaanesh. 115
Slaanesh is good. Not having to roll dice is good.

5 Chaos Warhounds: Vanguard. 40
5 Chaos Warhounds: Vanguard. 40
Ummm, chaff. They aren't fast cav, so I don't really like them, but they are cheap, and at least they can vanguard. I'd prefer two units of horsemen.

6 Chaos Trolls 210
I'd like 8 or 9, but 6 is all I can afford, and its less of a comp hit. Trolls are good.

5 Hellstriders of Slaanesh: musician; standard bearer. 115
For only 10pts more then marauder horse they are much fster, have higher Initiative, the mounts have magic attacks (spirit hosts I'm looking at you) and hit a little harder (mounts are better). Okay they are special, but meh, I have the core I want anyway, so its not like its a problem.

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth: additional hand weapon. 220
LD9, M7, I4 A6 S6. Me like. Very good choice under Swedish. Cheaper and better comp score than the Chimera. Fights a bit better (ignoring breath) is under used and more resilient to death magic / Shadow magic. Plus he doesn't need to be with the DP. Plus my DP doesn't fly, so he can't keep up with a Chimera.

4 Skullcrushers of Khorne: musician; standard bearer; Gleaming Pennant; ensorcelled weapons. 337
Whats to say.
I'm playing with the Gleaming pennant to let them work away from the BSB is he's needed elsewhere. But I also like the idea of the warbanner a lot. But if they fail break-tests a lot during play-testing I might loose the banner all together.
Edited by RasputinIII, Dec 12 2013, 06:59 AM.
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thughes0801
The Chosen
I'm liking the concept behind this thread you might want to make some suggestions in the main page and see if we can start a whole section on the forum for this kind of thing.

Cant wait to see how it updates and looks. Good idea
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Berghofer
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The Undivided
+1, Looks good, looking forward to read this Battlelog.
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
Thanks guys. Hopefully it/I won't disappoint.

I've edited Post #2 with the thoughts and reasoning behind the list.
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
GAME 1

So I played a game on Universal battles last night against someone who was really good. We played ETC, which I hadn't done before, but my list works for ETC.

I didn’t really record this game, because well, I was rusty as hell. I made lots of mistakes, some rules blunders etc. Anyway, his list:
Archamge on Moon dragon, Lvl4 Death, 4++, scroll, Ironcure icon
Dragonmage, lvl 2, charmed shield, DA, Golden Crown, gem of sunfire
BSB on horse, SoM and Dawnstone
3x 5 Reavers with bows
15 Helms, FC
Eagle
Frostie
4 RBT


Infinitely high hills and a list that’s faster and way more shooty then me, oh dear. Uphill battle. We basically all ended up on the right side of the table. He gets turn one and kills my exalted on steed of slaanesh and the Hellstriders. I make a stupid charge with a chariot to some reavers, who flee, escape and my chariot pulls across in front of the SC and blocks them in. Trolls fail stupidity and lurch 6” forward.

Hmmmm, I wanted to be 12” across the board after my T.1. Instead I am 0-6” forward. Fail. I know that his helm bus can break through any of my units on the charge probably. This wouldn't be good. So I send the DP out on his own to get in their face, and prevent their charge. From here the DP dies a turn later as I can’t get him into CC as he backs the hell up - but he is now basically pinned against the board edge. Dogs are in the backfield dying – but keeping the reavers from getting round behind me. I do a really good job of preventing the fliers from getting behind me with careful positioning and a chariot in rear-guard. Despite the fact he’s faster than me I push him back, with nowhere to go and the DP having soaked up all the ranged damage I managed to beat the frost bird/Helms/Dragon Mage in combats in turns 3-4. But I loose the shaggoth and BSB. At the end of T4 I have the SC, Trolls, Forsaken and chariots left. He has the archmage, 4 RBT and 1 unit of reavers.

At this point I can see what’s happening. I can get three RBTs in the next two turns and I will loose the chariots. I will probably loose 12-8 maybe draw. Instead his Turn 5 the dragon arch mage miscasts killing the chariot with spirit leach and goes into the warp. I do get my three RBT. He’s got one RBT and one unit of reavers left. I have the trolls, the SC and forsaken. I win. 2650vp vs 1780 or there abouts. Unexpected to say the least.

Reflecting on the list
- I’m really iffy on the lore of Slaanesh. 12” range on Choir isn’t great, and I’m not that fast. I more or less got nothing consequential off in my three magic phases. It was so obvious what needed to be stopped, that it was stopped. By contrast if I had shadow there were things I could have been casting all the time. I will stick with slaanesh for a few more games, but I liked it the least. Maybe I need wings on the DP to make it work.

- Target saturation. Everything in my army apart from the dogs hurts. I like that. Giving up the DP was the only thing I could this game. It worked.

- I need to pay much more attention when declaring charges.

- I don’t like dogs. I know they’re chaff, but they aren’t fast cav, so they can’t get anywhere when I need them. I don’t play them well, but I don’t like them much. I’d rather have horsemen.

- My lists not that fast. It’s all medium fast. Having no fliers is a bit crap. But then this was an avoidance flier army, so maybe that’s to be expected.

- The exalted on SoS is very vulnerable to death magic, and quite expensive at 175pts. If he were Dark Elf master price this would be okay. But its not so good here. Maybe I need to spend more on him (wardsave) or drop him. We’ll play a few more games and see.

- Forsaken are really good :) So fast. Lots of attacks (I always seemed to roll the wrong mutation though (as in the only one that has no relevance). Having something than can be steadfast is awesome. also, the flipside of them being so expensive is they contribute alot of points denial when they are ignored.
Edited by RasputinIII, Dec 12 2013, 10:49 AM.
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MAVV
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Warrior of the Chamber
I would agree with you and say the Exalted on the SoS is the only thing that doesn't pull a lot of its weight in this list. He'll add some punch to the Hellstriders, but he's already over the cost of the entire unit. You could drop him and the dogs, and have plenty of room for a couple Marauder Horse and other toys. Maybe more Hellstriders, or trolls!
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
Yeah, the more I think about the more I agree. Although against many opponents he can be run separately to the hellstriders, or use them simply as a delivery system, and he will be much more effective at killing enemy chaff the the horsemen.

That said if he goes I will probably drop one unit of dogs and add either:
1) Lvl 1 of Death with Enchanted Shield and Scroll + Marauder horse
2) Three trolls and a unit of Marauder horse with flails.
3) Two units of marauder horse with flails.

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Svarten
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The Chosen
I'm afraid your link to the swedish comp is a bot outdated. You can find the most recent update here: http://swfbr.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4494

It's the topmost link, and they update it as soon as a new update is out. Hope it helps :)

//Svarten
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
Thanks. Will update first post.
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
I went through most of your current doubts building a list, so I think I can give good advice.
You are absolutely right on the spells problem. Slaanesh means that in first turns opponentust dispel only one spell. But I just say that the same goes for Shadow, I have played it a lot lately, and found it has the same issue. Now you either need a backup caster or, and this is my suggestion, go for lore of tzeench+hellcannon.
Also, when you face many RBT, is best to hide your dp in woods or behind other units until you deal with them.
Even if the HC is not granted of doing something every match, with this setup you can go Treason+Gateway every turn. This will sometimes (depending on the winds) draw out the dispel scroll on turn 1.
So my advice is to go tzeench on the dp, and drop something between the hero and hellstriders to put in hellcannon, and maybe some more trolls.
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
Hi DS!

Thank you for your input. I think its really valuble.
I played a few more UB games with the list before I decided there are some real short commings with the list. Its very one dimensional, and its not that fast. And that's a problem. There aren't enough options.

So I decided to try a new list out. It was this list:

DP (Lvl 4 Tzeench, Chamed Shield, dragonbane Gem, OTS, Scaly Skin Familiar)
BSB (Tzeench, Barded Deamon Steed, ToP, Sh, GW)
Sorcerer (lvl 2 Death, Scroll, Enchanted Shield)

15 Forsaken of Slaanesh
Chariot of Slaanesh
Chariot of Slaanesh
5 Dogs - Vanguard
5 Dogs - Vanguard

5 Hellstriders - Spears, Banner and Muso
6 Trolls

Hellcannon
4 SC, Gleaming Pennant, Banner and Muso


I've played two UB games with the list so far. One against dark elves that I lost due to some amazingly bad luck. The second game I won with some good luck. I much prefer this list. Lore of Tzeench is awesome, and the combination with death means I have a lot of "must stop" spells each turn, every turn. I like having the second caster too. Good when the DP dies. The hellcannon I like. The option to deliver ranged damage is great. Its also unbreakable and has a wardsave. Which makes it much better than the shaggoth, who has issues with being T5 with only a 4+ armour.

In ETC format I think I will change the LVL2 to use metal or shadow. As I can't have tzeench death and the cannon

My current thoughts are:

1) I'd like more trolls. But the 6 bat well above their odd. So I'm still happy.
2) I might change the forsaken for Warriors with the banner of swiftness.
3) I'm tempted to remove the OTS from the DP and give him MR(1) because all he seems to do is attract heat, all game every game. Hes not lived through one game I've played yet.
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
It's a good option, MR 1. But you have to drop either charmed shield or dragonbane gem, and both are very useful items.
I see a problem with your level 2 joining the forsakens. This lowers their M to 4, so it's better to use warriors.
We can arrange a game on ub if you like.
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
The lvl 2 Forsaken thing is a problem. I've been meaning to pop the sorceress out of the unit in T.2 and then stay close for LOS, but its not happened so far, so I'm thinking its not going to work. Warriors is an option, but the other thing thats leaping out at me, is to replace the forsaken and one unit of dogs with 3-4 units of marauder horse. Or a third chariot and 3 marauder horse. Then put the lvl 2 on a horse. The downside is this gets rid of a viable combat unit and a unit that brings ranks.. The advantage is this gives me 4x the amount of warmachine hunters 3x the amount of chaff and a lot more speed. I could then drop the Hell-striders and add in three more trolls.

The trolls just keep impressing me.
In my last two games 6 trolls + BSB ground down 24 Black Guard with a Hag and Tullaris who had mind razor on them nearly every turn. Ground down to a man. In the other game they killed a steam tank in 4 combat phases.

If it wasn't for the fact that massively increase the vulnerability of the army to death magic I would run two units.


---

As for UB, Hell yes!!!! I would love to get absolutely destroyed by you :)
I'll get in touch after new year and we'll arrange something. I'm about to go away on holiday this weekend, and time before hand is slipping away!

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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
Happy holydays!
For the list, for now just swap the HS for more trolls and a steed for the sorc. He wil never be priority target, and you can always hide him behind hills of needed.
Then you can make experiments with your core section, trying the different options.
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