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How can i use the hell cannon efficiently?
Topic Started: Jun 23 2014, 04:34 PM (3,130 Views)
Black_Knight
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Warrior of the Chamber
Jofarin
Jun 26 2014, 03:00 AM
The dogs are shown on the website 1*5, am I also not allowed to field them 2*3 because of this? What are your arguments that speak against it besides “no one does it“? What`s wrong with it? What do you fear?
Seriously, I give serious arguments and all I hear as answer is :-you can`t be serious“ and “you`re trolling“. No, I`m not. I try to engage in a serious discussion. But for a serious discussion, someone has to either acknowledge an argument as right or argue against it with reason.
There are rules for formations in the book. There are rules for most everything in the book.

Use the bases provided (or cool stand in, there are plenty of good resin bases). You have to use a model to represent the mans. Base is part of the model. Footprint of the base(50x100 v. 100x50) is part of the model. As long as your model is roughly the same size as the GW model and has the same footprint, you are following the rules.

If it does not, you are not.
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Baluc
The Chosen
Does this forum have an ignore function?
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LIquid_Squid
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The Chosen
Jofarin
Jun 26 2014, 03:00 AM
The dogs are shown on the website 1*5, am I also not allowed to field them 2*3 because of this?
What? Did you not read the rule book? You can arrange them in any way, that question has nothing to do with the argument, and both of those have nothing to do with the efficiency of a Hellcannon. Which OP is hard to consider "effective" as it does not give its points up easily, and is not as reliable as other's shooting. However there are always those WTF shots that blow the enemy to bits or panic their most expensive unit, and then there are those that eat the handlers and go on a chaff killing rampage making its way up to the enemy artillery and eating it.
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Devil Slaine
The Chosen
I'm not trying to make enemies and I certainly respect the opinions of all involved. Especially since most of you have helped me out in the few weeks that I've been a member, but this game is about recreating a battlefield. The rule book continually backs this up when explaining how certain rules represent the actions of troops and warriors. They also mention "in the spirit of the game" quite a lot. And for me it's about seeing all the models laid out in a grand representation. If I only wanted strategy without visual stimulation I would only play Chess.

To me, seeing a warmachine slowly grinding its way across a blood soaked battlefield sideways, or being charged by lethal pack of warhounds sideways isn't in the spirit of the game, doesn't sound visually appealing or logical and would probably ruin the illusion to a degree. Although, this is just my opinion.

On topic. I think I want to build some Hellcannons.
Edited by Devil Slaine, Jun 26 2014, 07:41 AM.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
Devil Slaine
Jun 26 2014, 07:38 AM
To me, seeing a warmachine slowly grinding its way across a blood soaked battlefield sideways, or being charged by lethal pack of warhounds sideways isn't in the spirit of the game, doesn't sound visually appealing or logical and would probably ruin the illusion to a degree. Although, this is just my opinion.
You misunderstood the point. AND as I checked the rulebook, what you describe would be actually against the rules.

BRB p. 5
Quote:
 
Facing Front

It's normally easy to tell which direction a model is facing - he'll (it'll) be aligned squarely with one of his base's edges.

Sometimes, however, it's not so clear. This doesn't tend to be a problem in a unit, where all the models are assumed to face the same way (and a command group can normally be found in the front rank). If you have a single mdoel, such as a monster or character, make sure that your opponent can tell which way it's facing - it could prove crucial in the battle!


The point we are arguing is: What if someone would build his hellcannon model in a way, that it is facing the wide side of the base? Is he breaking a written rule? Is he unsportsmanlike? Would you allow it if your enemy does this?
I'd say to the first question "Nothing, besides the fact that the wide side of the base is now the front of the hellcannon", to the second question "No, if someone is a different opinion, please quote the rule and refer to the page of a rulebook", to the third "No, he gets a really small advantage while getting a big disadvantage from it and doing things that noone else does isn't unsportsmanlike as long as it's not insulting or rude, which I don't know why it would insult me or was rude" and to the fourth "yes".
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Devil Slaine
The Chosen
My apologies, I didn't realize that the hellcannon model would fit on the base facing the wide side. I was thinking you had to turn the model sideways to achieve the wide footprint. Thanks for the clarification.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
The actual cannon is quite short and the dwarfs could be placed left and right of the cannon:
Posted Image
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Devil Slaine
The Chosen
Yeah, I checked it out after I saw your post. As soon as I saw it I was a little embarrassed. I don't have one and it's much shorter than I was remembering. Sorry for the confusion.

Swing and a miss! :$
Edited by Devil Slaine, Jun 27 2014, 12:01 AM.
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nosirrahkcaz
Warrior of the Chamber
Getting in on this conversation late but if some one wanted to model it on the base sideways I'd let them, I'd just let them know their forward arc is still the intended 100, so if they'd like to shoot something I suggest they turn it the right way, if they didn't like it, call a judge over or if its a "friendly" I'd suggest finding someone else to play against. Clearly covered by the implicit idea conveyed on the gw official picture of the model/unit. While you can make cheeky arguments based on the idea its not strictly prohibited the accepted play of the vast vast majority would restrict it, it would be no different than placing your demon prince angled at a 45 degree angle on the base and claiming the corner is the frontage, it fits right?

Just my thoughts.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
Quote:
 
if its a "friendly" I'd suggest finding someone else to play against.

Why? Why is it so important to you that it has the 100mm side as front?

Quote:
 
Clearly covered by the implicit idea conveyed on the gw official picture of the model/unit.

You could say that about fielding dogs 1*5 vs 2*3 too. The picture clearly conveys the idea the dogs have to be fielded single rank.

Quote:
 
the accepted play of the vast vast majority would restrict it,

You could say that about fielding dogs 1*5 vs 2*3 too. "Everyone" plays them single rank.

Quote:
 
it would be no different than placing your demon prince angled at a 45 degree angle on the base and claiming the corner is the frontage,

No, the rules explicitly mention the front being squarely to an edge of the base (see above, I quoted it from the BRB). AND all the rules refer to the front as an edge of the base (see "closing the door" and similar). How do you close the door against a 45° DP? Who is in base contact? There would be a whole lot of rules questions now be unanswered, that normally are answered. Turning the base by 90° does nothing like that.
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LIquid_Squid
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The Chosen
Jofarin
Jun 27 2014, 12:14 PM
Quote:
 
if its a "friendly" I'd suggest finding someone else to play against.

Why? Why is it so important to you that it has the 100mm side as front?

Quote:
 
Clearly covered by the implicit idea conveyed on the gw official picture of the model/unit.

You could say that about fielding dogs 1*5 vs 2*3 too. The picture clearly conveys the idea the dogs have to be fielded single rank.

Quote:
 
the accepted play of the vast vast majority would restrict it,

You could say that about fielding dogs 1*5 vs 2*3 too. "Everyone" plays them single rank.

Quote:
 
it would be no different than placing your demon prince angled at a 45 degree angle on the base and claiming the corner is the frontage,

No, the rules explicitly mention the front being squarely to an edge of the base (see above, I quoted it from the BRB). AND all the rules refer to the front as an edge of the base (see "closing the door" and similar). How do you close the door against a 45° DP? Who is in base contact? There would be a whole lot of rules questions now be unanswered, that normally are answered. Turning the base by 90° does nothing like that.
-START RANT-
Look. Stop trying to find holes that DO NOT EXIST in the rules, models are designed certain ways for bases with certain ways, the official meaning of "front arc" is a dsignated side that is the front, not the eyes of the monster. you statement about the dogs makes no sense either because there are no rules against having 5 OR MORE DOGS IN A UNIT LIKE THE AB SAYS. Finally stop trying to argue about the legitimacy of a wide Hellcannon, that is not the way the model was designed to function, and if you need a "lore-accurate" reason for bloody base directions, the Cdwarfs are in the back securing chains and fueling the furnace. Please stop bringing this up since many people have debunked your ideas by basically saying, USE COMMON SENSE.
-END RANT-
and this still does not have to do with the effectiveness of a hellcannon...
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Jofarin
Clanlord
-START RANT-
Look. Stop trying to find rules that DO NOT EXIST, models aren't designed certain ways for bases with certain ways, the official meaning of "front arc" is a designated side that is the front, it's the eyes of the monster (as said in the BRB, quoted above). Your statement about the bases makes no sense either because there are no rules against switching the direction of the base. Finally stop trying to argue about the legitimacy of a wide Hellcannon, that (fixed directions of bases) is not the way the game was designed. Please stop bringing this up since I have debunked your ideas by basically saying, USE COMMON SENSE.
-END RANT-

That was really too easy. All your points are invalid, because you can just turn them around and they are equally sound. Common sense doesn't debunk poo. If there is a reason for common sense, you can debunk with that reasons, not with "it's common sense". 1+1=2 is correct, because it was defined this way and not because of "common sense".

And I'm not trying to find a hole, you want to create a rule that just isn't there and makes no sense in the first place.
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Just let him be Liquid_Squid. He clearly is so narrow minded that he cannot see past it.
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Benaiah
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The Chosen
Waiting for a moderator to step on this thread.
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Berghofer
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The Undivided
:P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIMwcoDP1XA
Edited by Berghofer, Jun 27 2014, 04:13 PM.
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