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How can i use the hell cannon efficiently?
Topic Started: Jun 23 2014, 04:34 PM (3,129 Views)
Colobos
The Chosen
I think I'm going to make the most convincing argument since I started this debate.

Look here at the GW website at the Soul Grinder - http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Soul-Grinder

It, like the Hellcannon say's it needs to be on a 100m x 150m base - but you can clearly see the 150m side is it's front.

Therefor the 100 x 150 is not indication of frontage x length or whatever. If you want use the 150m side as the front, that's perfectly fine.
Edited by Colobos, Jun 27 2014, 10:21 PM.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
...but but common sense and everyone and stuff...
</irony>
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Colobos
The Chosen
Benaiah
Jun 27 2014, 03:55 PM
Waiting for a moderator to step on this thread.
Wow, you must have a lot of free time.
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stokeymad
The Chosen
Strolling in late to the party (that's just how I roll). As I understand measurements, the first number is the vertical, the second number is the horizontal.

As I understand Warhammer, the front arc of the model is the top of the vertical, the back arc is the bottom of the vertical.

Therefore, on a 100mm by 150mm base, the front arc is 100mm wide. The back arc is 100mm wide. The sides are 150mm.

You could argue it for as long as you want with me, but I would still say the 100mm is the front arc.

If you want to use the argument 'there is nothing to say' then you just get in to the realms of ridiculousness. For example:

- There is nothing to say I can't put the hellcannon on top of a base 2 meters thick, meaning no models could attack it anyway as they couldn't reach it.

@Colobos - If you want to use the Soulgrinder as an example, then the Hellcannon on the Games Workshop website clearly uses the 100mm side as it's front.

If you were to use side arcs as front arcs and front arcs as side arcs etc then I would question whether it was in the spirit of the game.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In regards to the original point, I use one hellcannon on the flanks, but in the first turn I move instead of shooting. Watch your opponents deployment plans go straight out of the window when you do that :)
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Yes yes. Like GW never has been so lazy that they forgot write everything correctly into their website and their rules. Only irony here is that someone claims that he can put models to any base as he likes but he doesn't do this.
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Colobos
The Chosen
I used two of them at a tournament in Milton Keynes (UK) this past weekend with the frontage of 150mm.

Head rules judge said it was fine, because it just is.

Edit - I'll also add non of my opponents said a bad thing and were fine with it, a few of them actually said it was a good idea and complimented me for doing it.
Edited by Colobos, Jun 27 2014, 11:46 PM.
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R3do
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The Warptongue
If it is fine then it is fine ofc. Main issue is not hellcannon as it use to not have base. Main thing what I have problem here is that someone here says that you can do that with every model and it would be ok thing to do.
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GeneralofChaos42
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The Puppet Master
Jofarin should be made a mod, he is fast becoming my favorite poster. [huge grin]
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nosirrahkcaz
Warrior of the Chamber
I never responded to the original nature of the thread, so I apologize for that. I tend to put one on each side, or if running one just throw it in a corner by its self. I don't move mine forward as the 6 inch movement isn't worth it to me. I bring it just to give me something to do during the shooting phase. I target large formations or tightly clustered units. If I'm desperate I'll counter battery, but that tends to be a losing battle against cannons.

The soul grinder is an interesting item, as to my knowledge its the only unit in any gw game that uses a wider frontage than depth for a single item. I'm not going to try and convince people one way or another as I've already said my peace.

On another note I'm going to field a single hellcannon this week at a gt, so i will let you know how my base strategy pans out.
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Jdo
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Exalted Guardian
i don't have a time to read all posts, sorry if i'm misunderstanding what you are talking about, but 100 x 150 means front is 100, side is 150. In my opinion using side as a front is illegal.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
Jdo
Jun 28 2014, 12:53 AM
i don't have a time to read all posts, sorry if i'm misunderstanding what you are talking about, but 100 x 150 means front is 100, side is 150. In my opinion using side as a front is illegal.
Just that the soul grinder is a counter example to this and it was ruled by a head rules judge that it's okay to just switch.

Quote:
 
Main thing what I have problem here is that someone here says that you can do that with every model and it would be ok thing to do.

Say one model where it would be a problem.
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Quote:
 
Say one model where it would be a problem.

Every single cavalry base would be a problem because the front arc would be wider and there for they would have wider line of sight arc.

But it is not about the problem. Some bases (like cavalry) has been same since first edition and now some smart*** is trying to bend old ways to as he like. But hey now I am done with this stupid and senseless conversation. If you like to put your bases like you wanna, go ahead, I do not care. You can put single infantry model on 6 feet x 4 feet base if you like as it seems you do not care at all what others think.
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stokeymad
The Chosen
Jofarin
Jun 28 2014, 02:12 AM
Jdo
Jun 28 2014, 12:53 AM
i don't have a time to read all posts, sorry if i'm misunderstanding what you are talking about, but 100 x 150 means front is 100, side is 150. In my opinion using side as a front is illegal.
Just that the soul grinder is a counter example to this and it was ruled by a head rules judge that it's okay to just switch.

Quote:
 
Main thing what I have problem here is that someone here says that you can do that with every model and it would be ok thing to do.

Say one model where it would be a problem.
Chariot.
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Berghofer
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The Undivided
Colobos
Jun 27 2014, 10:06 PM
I think I'm going to make the most convincing argument since I started this debate.

Look here at the GW website at the Soul Grinder - http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Soul-Grinder

It, like the Hellcannon say's it needs to be on a 100m x 150m base - but you can clearly see the 150m side is it's front.

Therefor the 100 x 150 is not indication of frontage x length or whatever. If you want use the 150m side as the front, that's perfectly fine.
You are right about that, and you are also rigt that there is no official rule that states they have to be fielded in any specific way on their base. But if you are using the GW webside as an argument, then why are you ignoring the way they put the model on the base? because you are not looking for the whole picture, but just the parts you like.

IF what you say is true, then good for you and for them. Doesn't make it ok just because 6 people is fine with it. or 50 for that matter

The main thing is when someone does something a little edgy to gain an advantage. I have no respect for such people.
It is obvious that the way that GW intended for the hellcannon to be based is the way they put it on the base. Just plain obvious. And when you go against that to get an advantage, you are starting to enter the realm of jerkhammer..

Some things simply does not need a rule. Everyone gets it. Some just chose to take advantage of it, while the majority thankfully does not.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
R3do
Jun 28 2014, 02:29 AM
Quote:
 
Say one model where it would be a problem.

Every single cavalry base would be a problem because the front arc would be wider and there for they would have wider line of sight arc.
And they would lose a model per rank being able to attack on a 5 wide goblin/elf/whatever 20mm model unit. And they would be prone to 3 more models counterattacking if they charge a horde.

I'd say these are way bigger disadvantages than the wider line of sight arc. And now you got a tactical option where you can CHOSE which thing you think benefits you more and your enemy can try to exploit the disadvantage you chose.

Quote:
 
But if you are using the GW webside as an argument, then why are you ignoring the way they put the model on the base?

Because that's not how logic works. You go to ireland, see a white sheep and claim either "there are no black sheep on this whole island", "there are no white sheep on this whole island" or "there are white and black sheep on this whole island". Logics say the second sentence is WRONG, while the others might be true. From one white sheep you can't decide if there are black sheep on this island or not, but you can decide if there are white sheep.

Quote:
 
Doesn't make it ok just because 6 people is fine with it. or 50 for that matter

Because YOU are on the other side and the side you are on automatically has common sense and no matter how much other people are there, they are all stupid. Right? Let me think back, was there someone (not necessarily you) who claimed "but everyone does this"? Well if 50 people don't obviously no, not everyone does this.

Quote:
 
The main thing is when someone does something a little edgy to gain an advantage. I have no respect for such people.

They pay for the advantage with a way higher price than just "being edgy"...
And where does "a little edgy" start? Playing a WoC BSB with a magical standard (because noone does that)? Or playing a big block of marauders (because noone does that too)? Or playing a horde of dogs (because besides me asking if it was playable, I've never heard of that before)? All of those things are edgy and give an advantage. You pay that advantage with a price, but this is the case here too.

Quote:
 
Some things simply does not need a rule. Everyone gets it. Some just chose to take advantage of it, while the majority thankfully does not.

Some things simply don't need a rule. Period. Because it's ok to do it. Most people just don't care, but you want it differently and think you're right. Without a logical reason, a written rule or a judge call.
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