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How can i use the hell cannon efficiently?
Topic Started: Jun 23 2014, 04:34 PM (3,128 Views)
Koalita
Warrior of the Chamber
Are you seriously arguing about this? I mean... seriously?

Sorry but I think it's in the spirit of the game to follow the 'true line of sight' rule. You use bases to draw lines, but in theory you are using the model's eyes, if the rules I read in the basic rulebook are true, it's quite pointless to use the model base for the line of sight. And it's quite absurd to have a cavalry who is wider :/

You can make a case for the war machines and it's crew, but saying it's an option for the cavalry, is quite illogical. Or a chariot. Just doesn't make any sense in those units.
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LIquid_Squid
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The Chosen
Just remember OP that if you use a Hellcannon in your army that you will have to pay for both the cannon and the monster, however this makes Hellcannons easier to stay alive and do not need to be babied. The one unit of chaff that might nuke a Hellcannon down very quickly would be massed poisoned attacks, otherwise you are rocking it with T6, not a lot of chaff can kill that. Even if your cannon loses it's handlers you can still fire (if you pass a Ld test) but that is easier said than done with Ld4. With the 100x150mm base you have to make sure that if it moves it has room since it is quite unwieldy. Finally as what has been mentioned previously it's shooting is either godly, or it sucks, just due to the way stonethrowers fire and we do not get re-rolls on ours... (Even if we bring a chaos dwarf daemonsmith). All in all it's a good unit that can keep its points, but don't expect it to automatically get them back.
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Khaleth Blackheart
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Slave
[ * ]
Jofarin
Jun 28 2014, 03:50 AM
The main thing is when someone does something a little edgy to gain an advantage. I have no respect for such people.

Quote:
 
They pay for the advantage with a way higher price than just "being edgy"...
And where does "a little edgy" start? Playing a WoC BSB with a magical standard (because noone does that)? Or playing a big block of marauders (because noone does that too)? Or playing a horde of dogs (because besides me asking if it was playable, I've never heard of that before)? All of those things are edgy and give an advantage. You pay that advantage with a price, but this is the case here too. [quote/]
But the examples you gave are things you can legally do within the rules. They are not the same thing as mounting a model the wrong way on a base just because it fits.
The DE black dragon is a perfect example, it is on the chariot base, but easily fits facing the long edge forward, that alone does not mean you should mount it with the front edge as the longest.
I haven't personally built a hellcannon, does it come with an instruction booklet?
If so then whatever way that shows to mount it is correct.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
Khaleth Blackheart
Jun 28 2014, 04:30 AM
But the examples you gave are things you can legally do within the rules.
Yes, mounting a hellcannon wide is too. There is no rule against it and the rules talking about the front explicitly state that in some cases it might be hard to tell where the front of a model is in which case you chose one and tell your opponent which it is.

Quote:
 
They are not the same thing as mounting a model the wrong way on a base just because it fits.

There is no wrong way... that's just a thing you make up. It's as if I would declare fielding 14 warriors of chaos with mark of nurgle is the wrong way of fielding them.
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Khaleth Blackheart
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Slave
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Jofarin
Jun 28 2014, 04:39 AM
Khaleth Blackheart
Jun 28 2014, 04:30 AM
But the examples you gave are things you can legally do within the rules.
Yes, mounting a hellcannon wide is too. There is no rule against it and the rules talking about the front explicitly state that in some cases it might be hard to tell where the front of a model is in which case you chose one and tell your opponent which it is.

Quote:
 
They are not the same thing as mounting a model the wrong way on a base just because it fits.

There is no wrong way... that's just a thing you make up. It's as if I would declare fielding 14 warriors of chaos with mark of nurgle is the wrong way of fielding them.
I see why everyone else has given up with this arguement :P

I'm not trying to antagonise, and I'm not a narrow minded sort if person. But claiming you can do something just because it doesn't specifically state you can't in the rule book seems completely wrong.
And your example of the front of the model, means the model, not the base.
And again your example is not linked to the base of the models, which is what caused this argument to spiral away from the OP.
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stokeymad
The Chosen
You overlooked an important point. You asked where it would not work. The answer is a chariot.

So can we cherry pick which models we can do this for then?
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Jofarin
Clanlord
stokeymad
Jun 28 2014, 05:02 AM
You overlooked an important point. You asked where it would not work. The answer is a chariot.
I did what where and the answer is chariot how?
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stokeymad
The Chosen
Jofarin
Jun 28 2014, 02:12 AM
Jdo
Jun 28 2014, 12:53 AM
i don't have a time to read all posts, sorry if i'm misunderstanding what you are talking about, but 100 x 150 means front is 100, side is 150. In my opinion using side as a front is illegal.
Just that the soul grinder is a counter example to this and it was ruled by a head rules judge that it's okay to just switch.

Quote:
 
Main thing what I have problem here is that someone here says that you can do that with every model and it would be ok thing to do.

Say one model where it would be a problem.
Here you go.

A chariot is where it would be a problem.
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A'zrael
The Chosen
Get a SorcLord. Get CF. Go Tzeentch. Get Treason. Cast iton something. Hit it with a Hellcannon. Win.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
stokeymad
Jun 28 2014, 05:22 AM
Quote:
 
Say one model where it would be a problem.
Here you go.

A chariot is where it would be a problem.
...and the answer is chariot how?...
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stokeymad
The Chosen
Jofarin
Jun 28 2014, 11:36 AM
stokeymad
Jun 28 2014, 05:22 AM
Quote:
 
Say one model where it would be a problem.
Here you go.

A chariot is where it would be a problem.
...and the answer is chariot how?...
Seriously, how?

If you use the longest side of the Base as the front of the chariot then you are increasing its charge arc substantially. You would also be able to get more hits in on units who only have one rank (eg ten wide elven archers). You are also reducing the amount of models that can get into your flank.

The downsides are that more models can get into Base to Base with your front and rear. Hardly a fair balance wouldn't you agree?

Another problem is that the chariot wouldn't even fit on the Base if you used the longest side as it's front, it would hang off.

Therefore, you said name one model where using the longest side of its Base as it's frontage would be a problem. I answered with chariot.

As a side note you also said you wanted a sensible debate on this, but then you started to be defensive and play dumb. That makes you look like a troll, not someone who wants a debate.
Edited by stokeymad, Jun 28 2014, 04:42 PM.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
stokeymad
Jun 28 2014, 04:42 PM
You would also be able to get more hits in on units who only have one rank (eg ten wide elven archers).
What? Could you explain this more?

I agree on the charge arc and the smaller flank, but don`t think a wider front/reat doesn`t outweigh this. At least in a general sense. There are situations where it`s better and situations where it`s worse. Just adds depth to the game and is as much a problem as for example the miscast rules.

@doesn`t fit: Does your DP not cross his base borders? Mine does on all sides. We still figured a way to make it work in the game.

@debate: In a debate people answer and then back their answer with arguments. Your arguments where missing, so I asked for them.

And I let you repeat my question, because you totally changed the scope of it to your disadvantage. It was a favor, you`re welcome...and not being trolled.
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GeneralofChaos42
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The Puppet Master
this thread is too damn funny!
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H4d35
The Chosen
This seems very conniving and scheming. I would expect it of the rat-folk but not from one of the leaders of the great northmen. Boo.

If I were to see this on table, I'd think my opponent a wet lettuce but would let him/her play it but I wouldn't want to play him/her again.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
H4d35
Jun 29 2014, 08:09 PM
If I were to see this on table, I'd think my opponent a wet lettuce but would let him/her play it but I wouldn't want to play him/her again.
My thougts.
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