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Chaos Ogre Tactics : In Depth; Cant seem to find them in action in Batreps, need a little help
Topic Started: Jul 9 2014, 11:32 AM (1,503 Views)
Dat_Other_Guy
Member Avatar
Warrior of the Chamber
I am getting 8 Ironguts to convert to chaos ogres and was thinking about 2 things, running them as Either Khorne or Nurgle, and give them GW's and run a Deathstar unit. Now in terms of tactics, Dead Center and Piledrive into the enemy head on? Or a little more conservative? Or on a flank, bodyguards for the warlord? Ive yet to try them out a bit. They'll probably be my Anvil while my Knights/Skullcrushers will be the hammer, oh and btw this is 1250 and up in terms of points. I know Trolls can do the exact same and do better in terms of damage and tarpitting but Stupidity really makes the unit a little unreliable ( although they're Amazing ). I want these ogres to really hit like a Mack Truck and Survive. Thanks for the help :D
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Nemesis
Warrior of the Chamber
Yeah Ogres really are a poor man's troll, something to fall back on when your general won't be within 12". I like them sometimes in my DP lists to be can openers when I know I can't babysit trolls. So definitely great weapons. They aren't much of an anvil, with average toughness and armor, but a bevy of Str6 attacks makes them solid for countering knights and monsters. Nurgle helps them go toe to toe with knights, while Slaanesh helps them deal with monsters. They're especially good if you're running a lore that helps hit (Nurgle Shadow Metal).
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Jofarin
Clanlord
The survival might be a problem if you want to use them as anvil. They only got WS3, T4 and 5+AS, so S4+ attacks are really effective and even mass S3 works quite well (looking at you dark elves).
I doubt they work really good as anvil. After losing some to shooting and the first wave of CC attacks (low I) you`ll probably only have 4 left and 12-16 attacks will only do so much with WS3, even if S6. And even if you win the first round, afterwards, they`ll never anvil something again.

I`d play them as hammer and maybe do a pincer move with them and knights/SCs with your anvil comming from core (nurgle or tzeentch warriors make for a really good anvil).
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Dat_Other_Guy
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Warrior of the Chamber
So they're a hammer, not an anvil .... Hmmmm ok :) thanks!
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Jofarin
Clanlord
As the topic says "in Depth", lets do some Mathhammer:

You pay 11-15 pts per wound with WS3, T4, 5+. For 14 pts you get a vanilla warrior with WS5 (probably decreasing being hit by 33%), T4 and 4+ (decreasing wounds after AS by ~25%) effectively halving the damage. If you add a shield for one point, you get a 3+ (decreasing wounds after AS by another 33%) and 6++ in CC (decreasing wounds after ward by 17%) nearly halving it again. Against S4+ or AP warriors defense declines slightly faster and WS6 is a problem only for warriors (decreasing their defense by 33%), but overall they are a MUCH better anvil.

On the offenese:
8-12 pts per S4 attack isn't that good. Warriors pay vanilla 7 and can reduce this to 4.5, chosen could go slightly below this with some luck. So even impact hits and stomp won't help to get that low (if you don't roll 10+ on the charge).
10-15 pts per S6 attack is not that good too, warriors pay 6-10, lucky chosen go down to 4.5 again.
BUT this is only for the first row. The second row of ogres gets 3 support attacks each, while normal inf only gets 1, so they can recover some ground.
It's even worse for hordes...but 18 ogres or 30 warriors are ~600pts, so quite a lot.
No stomp or impact hits for the supporters though.

So what are their good points? M6, fear and only losing attacks every third wound.
Secondarily: More attacks on a smaller frontage (2 ranks of 20mm will get obliterated if you flank with 3 or 6 ogres) while being comparably weaker on the rear/flank (they get full supporting attacks to the front, while a lucky chosen in the second row might get one attack to the front and 5 attacks to the flank/rear).
Too bad they can't get a banner (besides a BSB joining without any protectional magic items and not even getting LoS...which would be plain stupid).
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wasker
The Chosen
^ Stomp and Ogre-impact hits are also something ogres have over Warriors.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
As said, that won't bring the cost for an attack under that of a warrior.

I can't really calculate the autohit nature of stomp and impact hits. A warrior probably hits on 3+, so they count for 3 attacks?
Edited by Jofarin, Jul 10 2014, 02:47 AM.
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rallas6
Slave
[ * ]
in my general experience they tend to crush everything they hit, i have had them kill an 18 man Slaanesh warrior regiment in one turn, and i have had them kill an entire regiment of cold ones in one turn, and in both cases it should be noted that the main reason they were so effective was Mark of Nurgle, that extra bit of survival really goeas along way.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
How many do you field? For 8 GW nurgle ogres it would've been really lucky to kill 18 slaanesh warriors. 4 impact hits at S4 kill about one, the stomps the same, they aren't feared, so hit on 4+, so from the normal 24 attacks only 12 should hit, 10 wound so 6 should be left.
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Benaiah
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The Chosen
You also need to count the additional ranks. 6 wide ogres @ 3 ranks deep gets you a LOT of attacks at str 6.

I've done these strategies before but the problem isn't even in the mathhammer. They're really similar to warriors when you mathhammer it out. The problem is in their staying power. If I spend 400+ points on a unit I don't want it to run away and running is something my ogres do very well. They're easy to flank, they're not very durable and they don't really do as well with heroes in the unit (except throgg, who'se better for trolls anyway).

I think Ogres work well but I like to use them in smaller units 3, 4, or 6. (In units of 4, you do a 2x2 formation similar to DrOgres. This lowers their frontage but allows the same number of attacks.
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wasker
The Chosen
If you put Throgg in a group of ogres the ogre champ can take challenges leaving Throgg free to savage the unit and any unit of trolls will still benefit from his LD bubble as long as they're within 18".
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Jofarin
Clanlord
Benaiah
Jul 10 2014, 03:57 AM
You also need to count the additional ranks. 6 wide ogres @ 3 ranks deep gets you a LOT of attacks at str 6.

I've done these strategies before but the problem isn't even in the mathhammer. They're really similar to warriors when you mathhammer it out. The problem is in their staying power. If I spend 400+ points on a unit I don't want it to run away and running is something my ogres do very well. They're easy to flank, they're not very durable and they don't really do as well with heroes in the unit (except throgg, who'se better for trolls anyway).

I think Ogres work well but I like to use them in smaller units 3, 4, or 6. (In units of 4, you do a 2x2 formation similar to DrOgres. This lowers their frontage but allows the same number of attacks.
18 Ogres are as said at least 594 pts. That's A LOT of points. Especially with a 2/3 chance to die to PoS or PSoX.
And 30 warriors can get at least 40/50/60 attacks (ogres get 54/60/66 +6 stomp +0/6 impact), so aren't too far off, especially if you consider that off these 54/60/66 attacks probably only 50% hit, while 67% of the 40/50/60 hit and stomp and impact are only S4.

So it's
27/30*S6 + 6/12*S4 vs. 27/33*S6
or
33/36/39(+6)*S4 vs. 27/33/40*S4

And compare the points...
18 Ogres vs. 30 Warriors
vanilla: 594 vs. 420
GW: 144 vs. 90
AHW: 54 vs. 60
MoK/T/N: 72 vs. 60
So you basically pay 30-40% more with only 10-20% more dmg. We're talking about a chimera in points difference if marked with GW...
And the ogre horde is 810 points (marked with GW)...

Seriously, they are dmg wise comparatively equal, the big difference is M6+W3 vs 4+/3+ AS.

[Edit]
Just one thing: Nobody plays warriors with GW, because everybody thinks it's a waste of their high I. Maybe we should discuss this more.
Edited by Jofarin, Jul 10 2014, 07:45 AM.
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Nemesis
Warrior of the Chamber
They're a jack of all trades, but master of none. They're better than trolls if you need Ld and non stupid. They're better than warriors if you need speed in your can openers. They're better than Drogres if you need a smaller or cheaper unit. They have the option of banner for BnG scenario. They bring 12 Str6 attacks with a frontage of 3 warriors (2x2). None of these things are amazing, but they do bring all of them to the table, and no other unit does.
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TastyBagel
The Chosen
If we're being in-depth, Ogres came up a few times over the last year in some Chaff War threads in this forum.

In addition to the Nurgle Chaos Orge Gutstar, some users thought to run smaller units (3 run 3-wide, or 4 run 2*2) as chaff killers, or small-frontage/high-damage flankers, since the monstrous infantry get more supporting attacks. Due to the low model count, Slaanesh and Khorne were the front-runners for their psychology bonuses.
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Speknawz
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Unchosen
I have a unit of 6 GW wielding Khorne Ogres, I planned to run them 3x2, never considered 2x3 for some reason. I haven't fielded them yet, but I had planned to run them up a flank to support a block of Warriors or a chariot.
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