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Chaos Ogre Tactics : In Depth; Cant seem to find them in action in Batreps, need a little help
Topic Started: Jul 9 2014, 11:32 AM (1,504 Views)
The Randy Halfling
Member Avatar
Troll's Play Thing
I have had good luck with a mid-sized Nurgle unit with Throgg joining them (7-8 ogres). I have also had a lot of luck with small Slaanesh units (3-4).
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wasker
The Chosen
Me too! I run mine with 6 trolls closeby and they just wreck face :)
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boots468
Slave
[ * ]
I've run 2 units of 3 Ogres recently with Additional Hand Weapons, Mark of Slaanesh and a Standard. They sucked.

The fortitude was handy in B&G, but overall the units weren't that effective in any role. The overall army was pretty fast and MSU (chariots, cavalry, DP etc) so their niche of anti-chaff / flankers wasn't needed too much, and there were very few situations they were in I wouldn't have preferred them to just be another core chariot.

The low Init and WS they have really hinders them - they usually take a casualty before striking, then at least half their hits miss (and if you go AHW the attacks aren't that good, and if you go 2HW there aren't enough attacks).

Helped with comp scores though :-)
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Nemesis
Warrior of the Chamber
6 should be 3x2 to get ranks, since a third rank in 2x3 formation won't get attacks anyway. But 4 in 2x2 is better than 3 and then 1. Smaller, more maneuverable, more attacks to a smaller frontage, and that front rank usually won't matter.
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Benaiah
Member Avatar
The Chosen
Jofarin
Jul 10 2014, 07:44 AM
Benaiah
Jul 10 2014, 03:57 AM
So you basically pay 30-40% more with only 10-20% more dmg. We're talking about a chimera in points difference if marked with GW...
I feel like you're forgetting the additional wounds though. You compared them to 30 warriors? You're looking at 54 warriors worth of wounds AND as others have mentioned you get some added advantages to make up for the disadvantages (initiative and weapon skill). These advantages are their movement and frontage/attacks ratio.
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Nemesis
Warrior of the Chamber
boots468
Jul 11 2014, 02:30 AM
I've run 2 units of 3 Ogres recently with Additional Hand Weapons, Mark of Slaanesh and a Standard. They sucked.

The fortitude was handy in B&G, but overall the units weren't that effective in any role. The overall army was pretty fast and MSU (chariots, cavalry, DP etc) so their niche of anti-chaff / flankers wasn't needed too much, and there were very few situations they were in I wouldn't have preferred them to just be another core chariot.

The low Init and WS they have really hinders them - they usually take a casualty before striking, then at least half their hits miss (and if you go AHW the attacks aren't that good, and if you go 2HW there aren't enough attacks).

Helped with comp scores though :-)
Never ever ever ever run them with AHW. Their low Init makes them shoe in for GWs since they swing second anyway, and AHW only adds one attack per large model, and only in the front rank, which gets rid of any advantage you have for bringing MInf.

They're one more hammer in a book of hammers. They're nasty with buff magic in the hit phase, otherwise pretty vanilla. Nurgle/Shadow Miasmas really make them shine, and ASL debuff from Slaanesh goes a long way too.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
Benaiah
Jul 10 2014, 07:44 AM
Jofarin
Jul 10 2014, 03:57 AM
So you basically pay 30-40% more with only 10-20% more dmg. We're talking about a chimera in points difference if marked with GW...
I feel like you're forgetting the additional wounds though. You compared them to 30 warriors? You're looking at 54 warriors worth of wounds AND as others have mentioned you get some added advantages to make up for the disadvantages (initiative and weapon skill). These advantages are their movement and frontage/attacks ratio.

As said, you pay 30-40% more, so you could equally take 9-12 warriors more. Warriors have a better WS to defend themselves (25% less dmg until you face WS6) and a higher AS (17-25% less dmg if you don't face S6/S5AP), so probably won't get hit that much anyways. If only one of the things works, you now have 52-56 "ogre wounds" compared to 54 for the ogres. If both work (because you face WS4-5 S3 noAP), warriors have 70+ ogre wounds.

The movement as their primary advantage was my main point...

And the frontage/attacks ratio highly depends on what you are facing. If it's divisble by 40mm, ogres are good, if it's divisible by 25mm warriors can keep up easily (I think, only calculated the numbers roughly).
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Nemesis
Warrior of the Chamber
Warriors provide 6 attacks across 50mm with support, ogres do it over 40. Not a huge difference. It actually matters more for attacks back, which might go towards mitigating their awful WS somewhat.
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A'zrael
The Chosen
If Ogres were core it'd be great. They're not so I wouldn't take them personally. I'd rather have tzeentch knights or a chimera or chariots or SC's or maybe trollololols.
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Nemesis
Warrior of the Chamber
Crushers are rare, so apples to oranges there. They're pound for pound our best unit in the book, besides maybe some character builds. The only reason you bring ogres is to can open or monster hunt. Trolls are better but need babysitting. Warriors are better and core, but slower and bulkier and stompable. Chariots are slow and Str5. Chimeras are fast and Str6, but low on wounds and warmachine magnets. So the only unique role Ogres fill is being a small, fast, meaty Str6 unit that doesn't need babysitting. In that one specific role, they're better than anything in the book.
Edited by Nemesis, Jul 13 2014, 08:48 AM.
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A'zrael
The Chosen
Nemesis
Jul 13 2014, 08:45 AM
Crushers are rare, so apples to oranges there. They're pound for pound our best unit in the book, besides maybe some character builds. The only reason you bring ogres is to can open or monster hunt. Trolls are better but need babysitting. Warriors are better and core, but slower and bulkier and stompable. Chariots are slow and Str5. Chimeras are fast and Str6, but low on wounds and warmachine magnets. So the only unique role Ogres fill is being a small, fast, meaty Str6 unit that doesn't need babysitting. In that one specific role, they're better than anything in the book.
Not really. Anything outside of Core is competing for points. SC's only really compete with themselves in Rare unless you're running a Hellcannon (which I do, but I only run one unit in special in bigger games, either a Chimera or a unit of Knights to house my SorcLord). What are the best, Ogres or Crushers?

Dragon Ogres do monster hunting AND can opening better, albeit more expensively. Trolls, mostly, will be in LD range anyway if they're working to support your midline because otherwise you might as well stick SCs or a Chimera or DrOgres into it. Calling chariots slow is a little silly. M8 + Swiftstride gives them a long charge range. Chimera's are "low" on wounds with their what, five or six of them? With Regen as well. Please, they're not fragile lol. They fill that one role at a premium that isn't worth it and can be done by other, more versatile units. Yes they can be fun but are they better than anything in the book? I wouldn't say so.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
Quote:
 
Chimera's are "low" on wounds with their what, five or six of them? With Regen as well. Please, they're not fragile lol.

Chimeras have 4 wounds which is basically one lucky cannon shot where you either miss the regen or the cannon has flaming (dwarves) or someone else with shooting has. Compare that to 18+ wounds ogres worth the same points have and yes, chimeras are low on wounds.

Quote:
 
SC's only really compete with themselves in Rare

But they are restricted to 25% of your points, because of this.
For correctness: And they're restricted to two units, although I don't really know how you could ever field three pointswise (besides a grand army where you now can have four).

Quote:
 
What are the best, Ogres or Crushers?

While I do agree that crushers are better, it's not that big of a difference in my opinion:
You get nearly two ogres for one crusher. Double the wounds, no frenzy (if not MoK. With MoK they get more attacks), all attacks S6 (if GW), way better attack per point ratio in big numbers (18 ogres vs 9-10 SCs...not even speaking of the inability to field 9 SCs in most games) and impact hits. Downside is you lose 1M, swiftstride, change 1+AS to 5+AS, lower WS and get ASL. Advantages against monsters, can openers, war machines (basically anything S6+/S5AP or armor ignoring) and lore of metal and anything you can't break or kill in one turn.
Especially the frenzy part with the forced overrun is a real downside to SCs...

Quote:
 
Dragon Ogres do monster hunting AND can opening better, albeit more expensively.

And we all know we got PLENTY of points spare to get the most expensive stuff. Right? That's why everyone loves marauders. At least some way to throw your points away...

Quote:
 
Calling chariots slow is a little silly.

Not really, if you want to maneuver. They only got a 8" march range, so getting around an enemy is way harder.
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Nemesis
Warrior of the Chamber
I would also add that anything outside of core and rare are competing for points, since you really can't go wrong maxing rare with crushers. And trolls are never in the LD bubble if you have a DP, at least not after the first turn or two. Otherwise, Jofarin hit on pretty much everything. Ogres aren't amazing, but they have a role, albeit limited. They have an answer to every disadvantage the other can openers bring, but at the expense of optimization.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
Trolls have the additional disadvantage of not getting S6. So against anything T4+ with a 2+ AS or worse, ogres are better. Against 1+ XOR T3 they are equal (or better if MoK).

Edit: given the enemy hasn`t WS7+ or terror and the ogres fail LD.
Edited by Jofarin, Jul 15 2014, 04:41 PM.
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