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LD9 Vs Lvl 4; Making the lord section work in the current Meta
Topic Started: Jul 28 2014, 10:31 AM (2,565 Views)
RasputinIII
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The Chosen
I was re-reading a thread from May and there was something very insightful from Knight just sitting there.

"Knight in Daemon Prince losing it's luster?"
 
What's interesting to note is how important the lords and heroes are to the overall success of our army. We've got to get that leadership bump along with a strong BSB to have any hope at all.


As I've been fooling around with lists and playing games I've come to the same conclusion. WoC needs characters maybe more than any other army out there. They are the glue that holds the bricks together. They provide one of the only places to get something over S5, they offer leadership and magic. They keep the trolls from staring at their feet and drooling and offer support like no unit can. They are expensive, but vital.

There's been some not very exciting conversations about the DP not having that much to say for itself in the new Meta of late, but not much talk about where that leaves us.

The real problem of not having a DP is means a choice between having a lvl 4 or LD9. The drawback for the former is its against rule#1 of the Army Building bible of 8th ed (though shalt have a lvl 4 and BSB). The problem with the later is that LD8 gets you in trouble fast when you loose combats or have lots of frenzied or stupid things.

So I figured we should put are heads together and talk about this issue in some more detail, Lords. I think there is an argument for the DP in this thread, but please can we try and avoid making the argument that the Nurgle DP of death has a place. I think we're largely agreed that the meta has made DPs very difficult.

In order to break this up, I'm going to write my thoughts separately to this intro post.
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
So, my thoughts on the matter:

I've been running the chaos lord the last few games. I've forgone the lvl 4 for a few reasons:
1) Slaanesh Lore isn't hard to cast, the extra +2 isn't that necessary. I can still cast four spells a turn with a lvl 2 if I want.
2) Our staline's are so good, and I don't run death stars, so my lists aren't that susceptible to the bomb spells - this means I often feel I only need to stop one spell a turn, and I can do this with lvl 2s.
3)Having 2 lvl 2s is better when one caster dies or fails to cast/ dispel then a single lvl 4.

LD9 is great, the 2 lvl 2s, whilst more expensive than the single LVL4 haven't left me wanting in the magic department. But I don't like the cost. The problem I'm having with the lord (on disc) is that hes so damned pricey. Whilst I've yet to loose him and so hes holding on to his points, paying 75pts per attack is expensive, and most games hes not made his points back in kills.

So as its stands by 2500pts list characters are currently looking like:
Chaos Lord: Hellfire Sword; Talisman of Endurance; Enchanted Shield; Third Eye of Tzeentch; Soul Feeder; Flaming Breath; Mark of Tzeentch; Disc of Tzeentch 400
Chaos Sorceror: Dispel Scroll; Dragonhelm; Level 2 Wizard; Mark of Slaanesh; Steed of Slaanesh 210
Chaos Sorceror: Charmed Shield; Level 2 Wizard; Mark of Slaanesh; Steed of Slaanesh 180
Exalted Hero: Talisman of Preservation; Mark of Tzeentch; great weapon; Battle Standard; Daemonic Mount 231

The hellfire sword is an attempt to make more of the investment in points than a GW. Plus it gives me an adge on things that the rest of the list can struggle against, such as monster cav and trolls. Plus S5 no armour saves stacks up better than S7 against elven characters and cav. I'm yet to come to any real conclusions about it, but I know I'm not blow away with this configuration or indeed the lord in general. i could have a lvl 4 on steed of slaanesh, the BSB and a disc riding exalted and that would come in nearly 150pts cheaper! That's a considerable saving.

I know we need magic, LD9 and a BSB, the trick seems to be finding that balance so as you're not spending more points than is needed to get the job done, I'm not sure I've found that balance I am aware that one could run a flying DP without magic levels for around the same cost. Whilst he is potentially more killy, hes easy points for a bolt thrower.
Edited by RasputinIII, Jul 28 2014, 10:51 AM.
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Jofarin
Clanlord
I really like Scyla for providing Ld10 on a hero spot :)
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LIquid_Squid
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The Chosen
Jofarin
Jul 28 2014, 12:20 PM
I really like Scyla for providing Ld10 on a hero spot :)
This, I would do this if the armies that I went up against all had some really good way of killing chars.
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MonkeyMadness95
Warrior of the Chamber
If you want a wizard and ld9, you could put him in a unit with the standard of discipline, that will make his inspiring presence Ld9 too :D
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Knight
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The Chosen
I see three about viable builds in the meta right now.

1) Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord on a Daemonic Steed. BSB with Blasted Standard (on Daemonic Steed). Couple of other characters on Daemonic Steeds. Unit of Tzeentch warriors with the standard of discipline. Everyone piles into the pool and then piles out when (or if) the time comes. Someone with MR in the Unit as well. This doesn't have to be a "star." You can keep it tight and still have other units milling about.

2) Khorne DP with the Collar of Khorne, trip chimera, 2 level 2 of Slaanesh on SoS. I'm really digging this build right now. The Khorne DP doesn't worry about magic. He still has to watch out for Empire and Ogres, but beyond that - ain't a lot that is gonna take him out. What's funny is he really isn't there to kill stuff, he's there to just hold something important up while the Chimera shred it.

3) Death/Slaanesh DP (kitted). 2-3 Chimera with chariot/horsemen spam for core. This one requires the most "skill." And Skill is really defined solely as "can the Chaos General successfully use the chimera/terrain to block any and all BS/Template shooting that targets the DP." I've seen games won with a dead DP on T2, but they are rare and require a lot of luck.

These three builds can win GTs in the US. I don't know of (m)any others in the meta right now.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
Curious why you do not think the combat lord with the 3++ ward is not viable Knight? When I think about putting a WoC list together this is where I start. I either go Dawnstone for extra protection or CoC to fill the role of blocker. With the Dawnstone, I don't even bother with Soul feeder. He just does not take wounds.

Back to the original question. The problem I find with a highly mobile combat lord is it is very easy for him to move out of IP range of the majority of troops. It is the nature of this army to find the troops falling back on their own leadership values more frequently then other armies. MoS also gives us a tool to mitigate some of these leadership tests. These observations lead me to believe having a Ld9 general is not as important for WoC as it is for other armies.

With that said, I always feel like you do not need a L4 to compete. Whether I have a L4 or L2's I feel like I am really holding my dice to stop a single spell a turn. With a Dispel scroll, you can stop one phase a game. Multiple L2's allow you additional arcane slots to do things with. Frankly arcane slots are gold. I mentioned dispel scroll, but scroll of shielding, power stone, chaos familiar, skull of katam, etc. are all great takes. Throw in some MR items, and you can present a solid magic defense despite only packing L2’s. Of course L2's are better for six dice skillz on the offensive side of the magic phase since sucking him into the warp does not hurt as much.

In the end, I think WoC is viable with either a L4 or a combat Lord (or a DP to fill both rolls). It is all personal taste and play style.

Hinge
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Knight
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Totally meant to include the disc riding combat lord as an alternative to the Khorne DP. I guess I got jazzed up by thinking about the Khorne DP and didn't remember to include him.

The disc lord does a great job of leading chimera around on a leash.
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Nabroleon
Warrior of the Chamber
I'll be the dissenting opinion here and argue for something not mentioned yet: Sorcerer Lord on Disc or Steed of Slaanesh ('cause those 2 make up 99% of what I use these days).

Currently, I'm a big fan of the lvl4 Sorcerer Lord on Steed of Slaanesh. My load-out rocks 4+ ward, MR2 (#*@&$#@ Death magic), Chaos Familiar, and Scaly Skin. Makes for a 2+/4++ with a 2++ vs magic and 5 spells on Slaanesh. I went all 5 games at Blood in the Sun with no deaths and a hell of a lot of mayhem caused by this guy.

The Tz Disc sorcerer can work as well as far as I'm concerned (generally as a mobile gun platform with the Tz lore), but the Lore of Tz isn't quite as useful in the meta as Lore of Slaanesh from what I've found.

There are definite weaknesses to the lvl4--Leadership and $*#& (for us) stats. He can't hold his own that well in combat against other combat-beasts and, due to needing important equipment, doesn't usually have much room for the Crown (so can't hold up blocks like the other two can). And in our army, those two can be pretty significant.

However, in my experience, we (unlike many armies) can negate those drawbacks as well. Worried about panic checks with leadership 8? Just mark everything (possible) as Slaanesh. That mark is my go-to with pretty much everything. On the rare occasions I even bring out Warriors anymore, they get the Slaanesh mark. Not as combat-effective, but I never have to worry about the odd failed panic check. Lore of Slaanesh tends to help me pick the combats I want as well, so I'm significantly less concerned about losing combats. So the concerns from both holding things up and having to take break tests on leadership 8 aren't as big of a deal either.

Now the Sorcerer Lord on Steed of Slaanesh does require one thing to work--investment in Marauder Horse/Hellstriders, and a sizable amount of them at that. This is a bit dangerous with all of the elf players about (%*$#&@# bolt throwers). But thoughtful placement, careful use of spells, and a crap-ton of balance in the list helps mitigate that as well.

Is it as effective as other choices? Maybe, maybe not. I'd certainly take a lvl4 over a DP any day (the Chaos Lord on Disc is the only contender for my lord points as far as I'm concerned). But I'm also strange in my tastes. I find Chimeras to be a waste in uncomped environments and chariot spam to be too easy to out-play. But maybe that's a product of the weird Midwest meta too.

Edited by Nabroleon, Jul 29 2014, 09:20 AM.
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kris_kapsner
Clanlord
I agree completely with you Mike.

I've been toting the L4 tzeentch caster on disc for a bit now and I really enjoy him. He is SO resilient. I've lost him once and that was an intentional sacrifice to pull two terrorgeists away from their knight bus leash so I could work on that bus with multiple units. I thought there was a chance I'd live through the screams. The double scream caused exactly the three wounds needed to kill him. One less and he would have been beating feet to get out of there and he would have lived. But, those are the chances you take. I still got a 20-0 that game due to overwhelming the knight bus and then the rest of the army just crumbled.

I would LOVE to field the L4 on slaanesh mount. But, I find it difficult to make the concessions in my army necessary to field enough fast cav to protect him.

How many fast cav are you running at this time as his escort?

P.S. Sorry about the death snipes on your L4 caster. I didn't mean to change your opinion regarding magic resistance. ;)
Edited by kris_kapsner, Jul 29 2014, 10:09 AM.
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
The big guns are out in force.
Some really insightful comments thus far, with a nice difference of opinion.

Hinge: I increasingly agree on the lvl 4 thing. When most spells are below a 10 in a lore those extra 2 to cast seem less necessary. That said the more games I play with the 2 lvl 2s the more I think that a lvl 4 on slaanesh would mean I could 2 dice most spells and cast 4-5 a turn rather than 3-4, which is pretty interesting. I've found since I'm running the SOS based caster that Lash is a pretty decent spell, especially against lines of elven archers and stuff. You can easily line it up so you are getting 10+ hits, which is pretty good for a MM.

Nabroleon: Any chance of seeing a list? I feel like what you are doing is exactly what I am trying to do, so I'd be keen to see whats else is in it.

Knight: The khorne DP might not care about gateway or choir but he still doesn't like bolt throwers, and the points invested aren't far of an unkillable chaos lord. I think its interesting you're so in for the Chimeras, I've never been a fan of such expensive models with I2 and W4. But I guess three does pack some punch - but sounds like a list that wins big or falls apart completely early on.
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Knight
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The Chosen
I'm really not a fan of the Chimera build, but it is seeing crazy amounts of success in the Mid-Atlantic Region.
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kris_kapsner
Clanlord
Demons make the chimera build difficult for me to field these days. I've never ran more than one however. If I ran 3, I think the build would have legs. But, I would be putting all of my faith and home into those guys along with the lord doing the bulk of the damage in the army. But, it's not a crazy plan. I almost feel like Throgg going solo would be a nice addition to that army. Perhaps even a Skyla General because suddenly those chimera are at leadership 10 as long as they are within 18" of Throgg. Not hard to do if he's running solo.

But, as I said, the demon cannons that come stock with flaming make short work of my chimera. And, the Dark Elf lists I've been facing lately have a small unit of flaming banner wielding crossbowmen that plink off a wound from the chimera and then bolt throwers eat it alive.

.

Getting to the debate between running two level 2's or a single L4. Both strategies have their merits. I like the idea of a couple of L2's because it spreads out the points sink and allows for greater flexibility on the battle field. However, I prefer the single L4 because I can protect him better and he casts the spells easier.

My current strategy is running the tzeentch sorc lord on disc with a 1+ armor save and 3+ ward with re-rolling 1's. The Bsb is relegated to a 1+ armor save and 3+ ward. But, that is still pretty butch. That L4 is nearly impossible to kill. Yes, he costs 400 points because I'm protecting him and also boosting his casting power with the chaos familiar and ruby ring of ruin. But, he's a magic nightmare for some of the armies that give me the most trouble.

He comes with 6 spells at the start of the game. And, most of the time he's stolen a spell or two from an opposing wizard over the course of the game. That's right! You want Choir? Go steal it! :)

People love the lore of Death because it can give you more power dice, right? Well, so does the Tzeentch lore. Only two spells in the lore are over 8 to cast. That means that with an L4 I can cast almost everything on two dice, needing just a 4 to cast. Every 6 I roll as I'm casting 2 dice at a time means that I get to add that die back into my power pool. Many times I'm getting off 4+ spells and sometimes I'm even getting off all 6! My personal record is getting off 7 spells with that wizard in one magic phase because I had stolen a useful spell (Soul Blight from a unit of Warlocks). Crazy! Your opponent can only dispel so much of that.

Now, the downside is that the spells tend to be very fickle. Sometimes you're rolling strength 5-6 and killing whole units! Other times you get direct hits on the middle of a unit of witch elves, only to roll strength 1 and do next to nothing. :(

But, there are useful spells like stealing opposing spells or lowering leadership (which is HUGE). And, there are potent damaging spells like Bolt and Gateway that can kill greater demons, DP's and terrorgeists with one spell (two in the case of Bolt).

I find the ruby ring to be REALLY useful. Not only does it provide some flaming attacks to knock regen off a unit I'd like to blast. But, it also provides me with a last spell that I commonly get off. I'll use my last 2-3 dice to cast my last spell. My opponent uses his last dispel dice to get rid of that spell. Then, if one of those power dice popped up as a 6, I get to cast fireball! You only need a 3+ on one dice to get it off. Very useful, particularly against the elf MSU meta we are seeing at tournaments these days.

And, even the Warpfire rule looks so much better these days than it used to. The unit needs to make a toughness test or suffer D3 wounds with no saves. Well, elves REALLY don't like taking toughness tests.

Now, I don't have a great answer for a Warlock bus in my list. I will have to "out tactic" my opponent to win that game. But, I have answers for most other lists in my army. Is it perfect? No. But, no list should be able to destroy all other lists in the game. If that happens, GW made a mistake in their army book.

Just my opinion. ;)
Edited by kris_kapsner, Jul 29 2014, 09:46 PM.
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Knight
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The Chosen
Kris,

3 chimera is the way to go (as opposed to a single one)...and when you think about it - against Daemons, the Khorne DP (with the DBG) is guarding the Chimera; not the other way around. ;) See how that works?

I shared your experience early on in the 1.0 build. The single chimera was just too frail. Three of them change the equation totally.

I say all of this with the caveat that I don't actually play Warriors anymore. It was just too frustrating to run into hard counters to my lists at every game of every GT in the MA.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
I don't think I would argue two L2's being superior to a single L4. I just would argue you can play WoC with either set up. In the end, it is likely up to personal preference. As someone who played an OB on Carnosuar over a Slann, I tend to lean towards combat characters.

@Nabrolean-

Interesting you are moving away from Lore of Tzeetch. I have always loved the Lore of Slaanesh since it really messes with the movement phase, but with the increase in avoidance elf armies, I am leaning more and more in favor of Tzeetch. Yes, Slaanesh can mess with their ability to avoid our troops, but the raw damage out put of Tzeetch will degrade those expensive elves quickly.

Hinge

PS
As some one who has been facing of against WoC the last two years, I tend to lick my chops when I see the chariot spam army across the table from me.
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