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| LD9 Vs Lvl 4; Making the lord section work in the current Meta | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 28 2014, 10:31 AM (2,568 Views) | |
| kris_kapsner | Jul 29 2014, 11:52 PM Post #16 |
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Clanlord
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First, I just want to say, "how awesome is it to have at least 4 WoC players who took this army to the US Masters debating the tactics within the army against the meta?" Too cool! And I will say that the other three guys here, Knight, Hinge and Nabrolean are all better players than I am. So, listen to them more than me. B) I agree with Hinge that I prefer damage output from the tzeentch lore over the slaanesh lore. There are some great spells in the slaanesh lore and it's probably a superior lore overall. But, the lists that I think I struggle the most against, other than the warlock bus, are the avoidance MSU lists. Tzeentch magic eats those lists up if you roll just average or so. And, the character is far more resilient against those lists too. @ Knight - I like the idea of running the triple chimera threat. Along with a flying General, those three models are fast enough to chase down those elf avoidance lists. |
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| RasputinIII | Jul 30 2014, 07:25 AM Post #17 |
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The Chosen
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Very disappointing. What are you running then? Kris: its funny, I'm having the same deliberation over slaanesh vs Tzeench, but my hang up is the opposite way round. Slaanesh has answers to everything, its not super damaging, but it lets you pick your fights one at a time. Its a utility lore with some exceptional tools. Tzeench I have more issues with. Okay its great at blasting wood elves and doing the ranged damage but it doesn't have answers to other problems. It doesn't deal well with death stars (that I find tricky with WoC) especially as most deathstars are rocking MR. It doesn't have answers to warlocks or the banner of the world dragon. Edited by RasputinIII, Jul 30 2014, 07:26 AM.
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| Jdo | Jul 30 2014, 05:24 PM Post #18 |
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Exalted Guardian
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treason is the answer to some deathstars. can be combined with helcannon if enemy is not ItP. last game my khorne chariot charged white lions with lvl4. c.a. 4 or 5 impact hits, chariot crew killed archmage (frenzied crewman, i love it) , chariot luckly survived with 1 or 2 wounds left, and run them down. thank you tzeentch. i have seen many failed LD8 tests before (of course without re-roll) and that was treason with one dice, the last spell on my magic phase.. Before treason i casted another spells , trying to get one or more 6's and i got it. so my enemy couldn't dispell it. thank you boon of magic. that was my 3rd or 4th game with lore of tzeentch. good lore. if my deathstar with sorcerer inside will be forced to move randomly, i'll take it because outside of combat it's still very dangerous with this lore (and we need some shooting !!!) |
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| GeneralofChaos42 | Jul 30 2014, 09:10 PM Post #19 |
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The Puppet Master
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Back to the main topic question, you can have both Sorcerer Lord & LD9 Lord, if your two Lord choices are on foot. Or you can run Scyla as your Army General? But you better have a way to protect him. One of the main reason, why I love the Warrior Star? Is the ability to run 2 Lv4 Sorcerers with Scyla or run a Chaos Lord & Sorcerer Lord in your list. |
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| Asvaldir | Jul 30 2014, 09:56 PM Post #20 |
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Chosen of Tzeentch
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One thing to consider is you can have a LD9 sorcerer lord. Just put him in a unit with the standard of discipline and he's boosted to 9. I do it fairly often, though you do have to accept the loss of him not being on a disc or some other mount and being stuck with a combat unit, but with a +2 ++4 and using metal magic I rarely find it that much of a problem. Certainly worth the LD9 because I find LD8 can really be a problem if you're forced to take a fair amount of LD tests. |
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| kris_kapsner | Jul 30 2014, 10:18 PM Post #21 |
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Clanlord
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Not only good against wood elves, but all of the elves. Bolt throwers can be taken off with a couple magic missiles if you need to. You can blast off annoying dark rider units and other MSU missile units. Also, frost phoenix can be blasted with Bolt or Gateway. And, magic missiles eat up the dangerous wild riders. With our army it's not hard to win combats against most death star units. Where we don't excel is knocking them off from steadfast. But, that's where Treason comes in handy. You knock them down to the lowest leadership in the unit and they don't get a Bsb re-roll. VERY useful. I think both lore's have strong merits in the current meta. And, the slaanesh lore is probably a little stronger. But, it takes more of an investment as well due to having to build a fast moving brittle bunker around the slaanesh sorcerer where you don't need that with the tzeentch one. That's why I'm leaning tzeentch. Edited by kris_kapsner, Jul 30 2014, 10:21 PM.
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| Nabroleon | Jul 30 2014, 10:22 PM Post #22 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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@kris_kapsner The number of marauder horse typically fluctuate (I don't normally take hellstriders when I'm running marauder cav core, as it's a little redundant), but I've settled a bit lately on 2 units, one at 8-strong and one at 7-strong. The multiple units allow me to bail out from one unit to another in a pinch, and against bolt throwers, can allow me to use fast cav shenanigans to move my BSB from one unit to another (if he's threatened, say with losing his 3++ to Unforging). It means I still have to go pretty aggro on armies with 4 bolt throwers though--I can't give them more than a turn, maybe two, tops before I need to either kill most of them or be in combat. Makes for dicey games against really solid opponents. But I prefer it that way ^_^ As for my hatred of Death magic, don't worry buddy--I was using it myself, so I have no reason to complain ;) @RasputinIII The list I took to BitS had a few weird components to it (partially because I do weird things and partially because I had a lovely conversion idea for Chaos Ogres), so take it with a mild grain of salt. But here it is: @2400 pts Sorcerer Lord lvl4 w/MoS, Steed of Sl, Armor of Destiny, Obsidian Amulet, Chaos Familiar, Scaly Skin, Lore of Slaanesh (2+4++ speed-demon mentioned before w/2++ vs magic--this came in handy against a mirror-match against Brad Schwandt's WoC round 3). Exalted w/MoT, Daemonic Mount, Barding, Great Weapon, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Pres, 3rd Eye, Soul Feeder (Rarely dies. Enchanted Shield is there for 1+ vs shooting, but mostly for giving me a 50% chance to not care about Unforging in case it gets IF) Sorcerer lvl1 w/MoS, Daemonic Mount, Charmed Shield, Dispel Scroll, Dragonbane gem, Lore of Shadow (This guy is one of my weird pieces. Requires a lot of thought to not get him killed. I took him on a Daemonic Mount so he could Smoke and Mirrors with the BSB for poos and giggles. Surprised the hell out of my opponents. I charged a chariot, and skullcrusher unit, and a steamtank and did the whole switch-aroo thing. The look on my opponents' faces (and surrounding onlookers) was priceless. Not recommended for the faint of heart, however.) Chariot w/MoS Chariot w/MoS 5 Hounds 5 Hounds 5 Hounds 7 Marauder Horse w/MoS, Flails, Javs, Shields, Standard 7 Marauder Horse w/MoS, Flails, Javs, Shields, Standard (I'm well-aware my marauder horse are expensive with all those add-ons, but I've found them useful in most situations. Javs help against Brolocks, low armor targets, etc, flails let me mix it up a bit if I need to protect myself from shooting, and shields, well, I needed those to make the core points even at 600. ^_^ ) Chaos Warshrine w/MoT 4 Chaos Ogres w/MoS, Great Weapons, Muso, Standard (Weird choice. Very hit or miss. Lore of Slaanesh let me pick my battles a bit, but they are definitely not typical for me) 3 Skullcrushers w/Ensorc Weaps, Standard, Muso 4 Skullcrushers w/Ensorc Weaps, Standard, Muso Went 5-0 and tied for 4th with one of the highest Strength of Schedules at the event. Could have tied for 1st if my last opponent had failed a leader-3 break test with Karl Franz and a few characters (even negated his Hold the Line with Phantasmagoria!) Such is the luck with dice games though :D @Knight I'm surprised the trip-Chimera build is doing so well in your neck of the woods, but that's the cool thing about the game--metas work so differently across the US. There are too many cannons and magic is too scary to invest 700+ points in easily taken 12 wounds around here (at least once you hit the top tables). Does the Mid-Atlantic play with comp? (3 Chimeras leads me to believe no, but I'm not aware of anyone but the Wild West of Warhammer [Midwest] to run without it). @Hinge You know, that's exactly why I originally went with LoT in the first place--it cut up dodgy, MSU-style armies like butter. Absolutely lovely. And it tends to wreck any deathstars that aren't Dwarf-based. It might have been the burning hatred I felt for my first game at the Masters, but Dark Elves also seem to be the bane of my existence with WoC. Not many opponents bring 10+ Brolocks with a bunch of characters, but when they do, I seem to face them and it doesn't go particularly well without Lore of Slaanesh (not when they have a 2++ vs magic anyway). Thus, I adjusted to the shift in the meta from what I was seeing. And I just haven't looked back! Plus, I make lists that can take advantage of LoS typically. Since LoS does little to increase your killing power beyond Hysterical Frenzy (which is great, but no Soul Blight) and has very little damage output itself, armies with LoS need to be killy on their own. SkullCrushers, fighty characters, warriors if you can stand the lack of speed--basically, the army needs to be able to get it done by itself. LoS sets up the right combats and your units need to be able to knock them down. That being said, I love the model I made for my Disc Sorcerer, so I reserve the right to poo on everything I just said and take LoT again :D |
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| kris_kapsner | Jul 31 2014, 03:38 AM Post #23 |
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Clanlord
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You miss Soul Blight my friend? I just use lore of tzeentch Glean Magic to take it from the bro-locks and use it against them. ;) |
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| Hinge | Jul 31 2014, 05:31 AM Post #24 |
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Exalted Guardian
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lol, the one time I geared up to take on brolock stars (Lonewolf) I did not run into a single one. Instead it was all mutiple Steam Tanks/life magic. and it was ruled that LoS random move spells added to the movement of the Stanks. I missed an amazing number of 3++/re-roll 1's ward saves v. cannon balls that weekend. it was gettign to be a bit of a joke. Hinge |
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| RasputinIII | Jul 31 2014, 07:46 AM Post #25 |
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The Chosen
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This thread is just awesome. So much well thought out opinion and experience. What a great read. Nabroleon, love the sorc on DS. So cute. I'm going to give that a whirl for sure, reminds me of the kind of stuff we had to do with dark elves in 6th to get wins. I don't think the ogres are weird, I think chaos ogres of slaanesh are a rock solid little unit. I've been running three as chaff and its pretty effective, cheap, reliable, reck fast cav with ogre charge etc... Haven't tried GWs due to the cost, but I'm going to give that a try too. I like how this thread has sort of morphed into a discussion about magic lore. Interesting to see how fundamental this aspect of list design is to peoples game plans and lists. Part of me really want to get on the Tzeench disc caster thing and do some blasting. But I don't get enough games in to make such a big change at this time. Maybe post Axemaster at the end of sept, use that to really test the legs of Slaanesh. Although I do wonder about a shooty/magicy/avoidance tzeench based list with hellcannons. Maybe a lvl 4, a lvl 1 fire, unkillable BSB and a disc exalted backed up by JavCav and 2 cannons. Preserve points, blast stuff, and then combo charge in the latter turns. |
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| LIquid_Squid | Jul 31 2014, 10:48 AM Post #26 |
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The Chosen
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I guess if you are allowed Special Characters you could always bring Galrauch... |
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| RasputinIII | Aug 1 2014, 11:52 AM Post #27 |
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The Chosen
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I played a game against skaven today. Had the lvl 4 on slaanesh and the lvl 1 on shadow on the DS that Nabroleon mentioned. I was setting up for a t2 charge on an ABOMB with the mage to switch around. But T.1 Miscast on 2 dice and lost my wizard levels t.2 and miscast on 3 dice with the lord and forgot choir and phantamagoria. It didn't really matter, I didn't need the magic. But I did think most of the way through the game I could of done more with Tzeench magic. I could of blown up all the chaff and and been doing damage rather than pussy footing around. Its such a tough choice, they're so different yet clearly so key to making a a woc army work. |
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| GeneralofChaos42 | Aug 1 2014, 09:41 PM Post #28 |
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The Puppet Master
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RasputinIII: never go off just 1 game, I give the list at least 5 games. Before making up your mind on the build. |
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| Asvaldir | Aug 1 2014, 10:53 PM Post #29 |
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Chosen of Tzeentch
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Don't know why you'd ever use him, he's a dragon that should be in CC but a wizard with a lore that basically requires that you are not in CC. Terrible combination. RasputinIII I second GoC's statement, play testing is what I consider the ultimate test for a list and one play test is never enough because you could have just had a bad game because of the dice. After a few games with things going bad/good you can know it's not the dice. |
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| Jofarin | Aug 2 2014, 07:28 AM Post #30 |
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Clanlord
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If he could either chose between tzeentch or metal or instead be a lvl 2 with 70+ points off his costs, he would be way better and at least decent to play. |
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