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| 2400 list for local league; MSU style | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 2 2011, 12:54 AM (147 Views) | |
| khorndog | Nov 2 2011, 12:54 AM Post #1 |
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The Chosen
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Hey all, Ive got a league starting today for the next couple months, and I wanted to post my idea for the list. I normally play at 2000, so having another 400 points is new to me. Let me know what you think, I dont jave point costs right now but will get them when I get home today- by my memory though, should be legal. Lvl 4 of tzeentch, general -charmed shield, infernal puppet, necrotic phylactery Exalted of Tzeentch -halberd, golden eye, disc, blood curdling roar Exalted of Khorne, BSB -sword of +1 A or +1 S, cant decide which yet 18 warriors, tzeentch -sword/board, mus, standard, blasted standard 18 warriors, nurgle -halberd, shield, mus, standard, banner of rage (bsb bunker) 18 marauders, khorne -mus, standard, great weapons 18 marauders, khorne -mus, standard, great weapons 5 dogs 5 dogs 5 horsemen, khorne -flails, javelins 12 chosen, tzeentch -full command, favor of the gods, wailing banner, sword/board (sorceror bunker) warshrine, tzeentch What do you think? Im not sold on the horsemen, as I doubt theyll be as effective as I want them to be, but I look at it as 4 drops before I have to show my battle plan (2 dogs, horsemen, and shrine). I feel this list has some flexibility, is resilient, and wont get killed on comp for the league. Comments and Criticism welcome! Cheers, Nick |
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| conjoy | Nov 3 2011, 01:06 AM Post #2 |
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Exalted Guardian
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My thoughts: On the Marauder Horse. With the MoKh, I would leave-out the javelins and include a Standard if you can. If you want the unit to have more utility go MoSl and plump for a Musician (and leave the Javelins in). I would take a Champion in your BSB bunker, just in case. With S&A stats of 5 I would consider a ward before improving either. Even ASF would be more useful, IMHO meaning you hit much more consistently (and crucially remove the reroll from all those damn HElf opponents who rely on it. Consider giving one of the Kh Marauder units Flails instead of Great Weps. There are quite a few situations where hitting first/same time will be more advantageous. An MSU style is a lot about multi-charges and breaking your opponent in one round – Flails can be better at that than GWs. Careful using your Shrine as a drop – it needs to be within 20inches of your Chosen, and even that assumes the Chosen will stand still and let the Shrine come to them. One of my recent lists only had the single Shrine, but when you consider you are spending 510 points on the unit and single Shrine, you may as well go for the extra shrine to make Divine Greatness a much more likely result. If you drop the MoTz off the Shrines, you can get two in for 260. With two you are really maximising your chances of getting what you want/need. With only the single Shrine the chances drop dramatically: Assuming you take ‘5’ as your initial roll (which you should), the chance for a single Shrine to roll DG is only 20% (because 7 & 8 are the most likely combinations **). Whereas once your first Shrine has rolled an 8, it then becomes a 50/50 for the second Shrine to roll 2/3 or 11/12. The net result is, if you are running Chosen, and in particular using it as a character bunker, it really makes sense to go the extra yard and include that extra Shrine. Its cookie cutter but theres a good reason for that. ** many players make the mistake of thinking that because 2,3,7,8,11,12 are the only combinations that they have a 1/3 chance of rolling DG but this is incorrect. For instance on a roll of 2D6 there are 6 separate combinations that all result in a 7: 1+6, 2+5, 3+4 6+1, 5+2, 4+3. Whereas there is only one combination that will give you 12: 6+6. And only two that will give you 11: 5+6 (and the reverse). When you have the roll for your Chosen (assuming the Wailing Banner and FotG) at the start of the game you can Choose the result of 5 (+1A) and you should take it as it nullifies some of the most common rolled combinations: 4,5 and 6. Thus your first Shrine roll leaves you with only the following combinations: 2,3,7,8,and the ones I assume you want 11 & 12. We have already seen your first roll is most likely to be 7 or 8 (there is debate about whether its even worth just taking 9 but probably not). So your second Shrine roll is now restricted to 2,3,11,12, and because both these sets are the same statistical chance, at this point you have a 50/50 for DG. Even playing a 3k+ game and taking 3 Shrines, because FotG cannot be used on the natural roll of a 2, you can never have a btter than 75% chance of rolling DG. Edited by conjoy, Nov 3 2011, 01:07 AM.
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| Hinge | Nov 3 2011, 02:01 AM Post #3 |
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Exalted Guardian
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The MoK on the cav makes me nervous. I find my cav away from the BSB/general. With MoK, they may fail a frenzy check and charge an inconvenient target. I will be interested to hear how the 18 man marauder units. They seem a bit small (even for me!). I like to have enough to take some casulties. Since I run them 6 wide, 12 models is my magic number when I get the attack off. Finally, I have been runing into VC armies packing multiple (5 and even 10) wraith heros. This type of build could give you some problems. Maybe shoe horn a biting blade in somewhere? Depends on threat environment. Hinge |
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| khorndog | Nov 4 2011, 12:02 AM Post #4 |
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The Chosen
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Thanks for the advice guys, I went and tallied my list and the one I posted is actually illegal- the correct and legal one is below: Lvl 4 Sorc, Tzeentch (370) -enchanted shield, infernal puppet, tal. of endurance Exalted of Tzeentch (194) -Disc, halberd, charmed shield, golden eye, blood curdling roar Exalted of Khorne (180) BSB, Sword of Swift Slaying 18 Warriors, Tzeentch (366) -sword/board, mus, standard, blasted standard 18 warriors, Nurgle (401) -halberd, shield, full command, banner of rage (BSB bunker) 24 Marauders, Khorne (162) -flails, mus, standard 24 Marauders, Khorne (162) -GW, mus, standard 5 dogs (30) 5 dogs (30) 12 Chosen, Tzeentch (353) -full command, sword/board, wailing banner, favor of the gods (sorcerer bunker) warshrine, tzeentch @conjoy: thanks for the advice with the BSB, after looking at it I agree that a ward save/a weapon to give him an edge vs things like sword masters is better than an additional S or A. Unfortunately points are tight, and I am unable to give him both a decent ward AND a fast sword (either the 6+ ward and the I 10 sword, or simply the ASF sword alone). @Hinge: thanks for the advice, in my experience 18 marauders can do the trick most of the time for what I use them for (mainly, hitting the flank of an enemy or tying something up just long enough to get a more powerful unit in the flank), but I've never tried an additional rank so I'm going to give 24 in each a shot, and give one of them flails for the reasons both you and conjoy described. I dropped the horsemen entirely, because at this level I highly doubt they're going to be as useful as an additional 12 marauders and a quicker BSB; with the original list I posted, the only legal way to run them was no mark, flails, no command group for 75 points...and I just don't think they're going to be able to do much with that. There is full disclosure as to what we'll face in the league, as the schedule is made ahead of time- so I already know which armies I'll be facing in the regular season: High Elves (twice), Wood Elves, Dark elves (twice), Lizards (twice), Dwarfs, Empire. The only additional armies I might fight are in the playoffs, playing against armies from the other division in our league, which also include Ogres, Chaos, and Brettonians, but nothing besides those 9 armies- and I think this list can fare well against most of them (and most of these guys I've played before, and know the sort of armies they bring together). What are your thoughts, do you think going to 24 on the marauders is going to be more useful than having the horsemen? Do you think it is better to give my BSB ASF instead of a ward save or something like the ironcurse icon for the unit? Conjoy, you stress having a second warshrine (and yes, I know what you mean about most people's understanding about the probability of rolling 11 or 12- luckily my degree involved a healthy dose of stats, psych stats, and rationalizing probability ;) ) but I really don't see where I can get the points to fit another one in- at least not without taking apart what I see to be some of the more crucial elements of my list. Cheers, Nick |
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| conjoy | Nov 4 2011, 01:04 AM Post #5 |
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Exalted Guardian
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IMHO, if you can’t fit two Shrines you are probably better off just taking Warriors: The real magic of Chosen is with the extra defence, but to get that reliably you need two shrines. In a competitive environment (the only time I would take Chosen) reliability is an important element of what a unit can do. Without the second Shrine you have a unit that could vary from amazing (you get DG or even +1T) through to massively overpriced if you get stuck with +Ldr or Magic resist (and unfortunately the stats favour these latter results). If you make the Chosen into Warriors and drop the Shrine you can have a really big unit that through weight of numbers (or by simply taking the CoC) can perform the same function. For instance your current unit plus Warshrine come in at about 500 points. For the same amount you could have 27 Sword and Board Warriors with the Flame Banner and the next level of Talisman for your Sorc (so 3+ overall). And all you lose is 1 WS and whatever you would roll on the table (likely +1 A and Magic Resistance). Even if your Chosen would have rolled DG, with 27 in the unit you are most likely Steadfast through ranks and so its a difference of 2 to your Ward Save, which again, your extra numbers nullifies. The big advantage of Chosen as I see them is not in going for DG at the start, but by taking two Warshrines and aiming to get it mid-battle so it affects characters you have placed in the unit (on who you didn’t pay for a Ward save). Another option would be instead of going for 27 Warriors to replace your Chosen with 23 Warriors allowing you to buff your BSB, or add the Crown of Command to your Sorc Lord or even reintroduce the unit of Marauder Horse – which are one of my favourite units. A unit of 5 could give you some much needed manoeuvrability that you are short on with your infantry blocks. Ideally I kit them with MoSl, javelins, and with Flails or Spears and Light Armour. A final option I would throw out to you: You already have four blocks of infantry. Use the points from the Chosen and Shrine to beef-out your existing Tz Warriors (and any other units think need it) and then take a unit of Knights. One final point – I notice you don’t have the flame Banner, and for an all-comers situation I think its a must-have. The obvious way to achieve this would be making the Nurgle Warriors Khorne. |
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| khorndog | Nov 4 2011, 03:41 AM Post #6 |
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The Chosen
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Conjoy, I get what you're saying but this is an MSU style list, and I want the challenge of playing that style. That was a purposeful ;) I understand that 2 warshrines is clearly better than one, but even with 2 its not what I would call "reliable"- more reliable, yes, but its still chance. One warshrine will have to do- if I don't get DG early on, I can continue to cast it on them each turn until I do get it, so I'm not too concerned. In my experience, (and I believe I heard this from Hinge first btw, which was my inspiration for the small unit of 12) even a chosen unit with +1 T or +1 Save is a fearsome opponent for anyone to deal with, and they've always done well for me even without DG. As for marauder horsemen, I have never had them actually accomplish anything, in any game I've ever used them in lol. That might be bad generalship by me, so call it what you will, but I just don't have a good reason to include them if I don't have the points...but I do love the models, so I'll see what I can do moving stuff around. Excellent point about the flaming standard...might have to take a look at that as well. I am definitely keeping Nurgle on my warriors with halberds though- say what you will about the benefits of -1 BS/WS being worth the points, I love the fluff and I painted them hella-nurgly, so I'm stuck lest I can grab 2 more boxes of warriors and convert/paint them by my first game ;) Overall I like the feel of this list, and to me that's more important than being optimal- I'd rather have fun and enjoy the challenge of a match than just take hordes of marauders, a decent sized chosen block, 2 warshrines, etc. Though I should note we are allowed a "sideboard" as it were throughout the tournament- slight changes to our army list to take on different situations or try new ideas. So I do have a version of my list that includes 2 warshrines and a horde of marauders rather than the single shrine and 2 smaller units, so if that starts to work well I will be indebted to you sir! Cheers, and thanks for all the help you guys, I really appreciate it! Nick |
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9:06 AM Jul 11