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| marauders; an entry into the handbook | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 2 2011, 02:31 AM (1,184 Views) | |
| grimni22 | Nov 2 2011, 02:31 AM Post #1 |
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The Chosen
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at only four points a model, marauders are our bulk choice. and they come with a lot of awesome extra's! how would you equip them, in what quantities, and what would you tactics be during a game of warhammer? |
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| nzkoston | Nov 2 2011, 03:22 AM Post #2 |
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The Chosen
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most people seem to run these guys in blocks of 40-50 in horde formation with great weapons and mark of khorne. Though i do wonder what it would be like to run small blocks of these guys in units of 10 with mark of slaanesh. A slightly more expensive alternative to chaos hounds to be used as immune to panic meat shields. a naked unit of 10 for 50 points to the hounds unit of 5 at 30 points. Another difference that they would count toward core %. Though i usually have plenty of warriors to take care of that. |
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| DrippingD | Nov 2 2011, 03:22 AM Post #3 |
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Slave
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Great weapons, mark of Khorne, anything from 30 to 50+ per unit |
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| grimni22 | Nov 2 2011, 03:35 AM Post #4 |
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The Chosen
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I wouldn't say this is a neccesity. I find the 10 block idea from nzkoston very interesting, might try that sometime. another popular build is shields, hand weapons and mark of tzeentch, because they will then have a 5+ ward save in combat, something that is pretty good for models that are so cheap. |
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| grimni22 | Nov 2 2011, 05:02 AM Post #5 |
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The Chosen
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double post
Edited by grimni22, Nov 14 2012, 05:02 AM.
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| rothgar13 | Nov 2 2011, 05:34 AM Post #6 |
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Clanlord
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I have to say 40-50, Khorne, Great Weapons. It brings something to the table for WoC that our other units can't easily replicate, and that is a massive Horde of high-powered attacks that crushes its opponents through weight of numbers. Hinge has also said he's had success with units of 20 or so with Flails, though I still personally opt for the Horde. |
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| Hinge | Nov 2 2011, 01:20 PM Post #7 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Indeed. I play two 22-25 man units, one armed with GW, the other flails. Both MoK. Advantages- Cheap Hard hitting can create another line of threat extra drop extra banners for blood and glory Disadvantage Durability. I use the flails in and around buildings and situations where it is important to get that first strike in. GW are more for grinding. However, your likely to only have two rounds of combat in a unit this small before they become ineffective. Hinge |
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| matsemann | Nov 2 2011, 08:40 PM Post #8 |
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The Chosen
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Also agree with Hinge that sometimes flails can be a good option when you really want to strike first, but would not use it with hordes that are 30-40+ in size. Flails are a one shot wonder. If you don't do enough damage the first round you might just as well reform into max ranks and pray to Khorne that it will hold. |
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| conjoy | Nov 3 2011, 01:39 AM Post #9 |
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Exalted Guardian
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I am a huge fan of the hand weapon +shield combo with MoTz run 5x7 (or even 8 or 9). Gives you a unit that should reliably be Steadfast for at least a few rounds, even against the hardest hitting units in the game. At their cheap price the 5+ parry ward is brilliant. Can also be nicely combined with harder hitting units to break your opponents Steadfast. I have also had good success with the Khorne horde and even Khorne units with flails as small as 15 can be excellent against the right target Edited by conjoy, Nov 3 2011, 01:42 AM.
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| itsuperslug | Nov 4 2011, 10:28 PM Post #10 |
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The Chosen
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currently take unit of 20 with Mok, flails, standard, music led by BSB with MoM 2 ranks of 7 with only 20 in unit cant take the beating to justify GW |
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| grimni22 | Nov 4 2011, 11:12 PM Post #11 |
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The Chosen
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so you basically take flails in small units and great weapons in large units? (when you have khorne) |
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| ElBeaver | Jan 20 2012, 10:41 PM Post #12 |
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Slave
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I'm new to these boards, so I hope I am not violating any rules, but Kerill over at WarSeer did an excellent walkthrough of WoC: WoC 8th tactica Here is what he wrote about marauders: Chaos Marauders 9/10 (7/10 in 7th) Marauders in 7th typically were taken in one of two forms as a mage bunker unit with mark of slaanesh and 20-25 strong for a decent bit of static combat resolution or as a Khornate unit often 18 (sometimes 24) strong as a cheap unit that was potentially very threatening on the charge. The former unit tended to fulfill its role quite well but was still somewhat vulnerable to shock units. The latter unit tended to get filled full of arrows, blowdarts and then charged and broken but at least it occupied a fair bit of enemy attention for a relatively low cost. Blender Marauders In 8th marauders with mark of Khorne and GW/flails can potentially be a combat powerhouse. 6 wide they have 18 Ws4 S5 attacks which is a very good damage output indeed for a unit of 5 point models. They are also cheap enough that they can be taken in large enough numbers for a deep unit 5 or 6 ranks to benefit from steadfast against almost anything that charges them from the front. 30 with GW and full command is only 200 points. There is also the potential of using the horde rule which, against your typical 5 wide 20mm unit means an extra 6 attacks. Horde is obviously more useful against wider units and suffers from the fact that for the unit to be deep enough to be steadfast we are looking at about 300 points. Still the option to go horde is still a good one and can be helpful against other horde units since marauders will hit harder than most. Also, as noted earlier, with the ease of reforming in 8th you can choose whether you want to go horde for more attacks or go deep to deny an enemy regiment the steadfast bonus to break through their line. The latter is one of the key advantages marauders have compared to warriors-‐ a large number of ranks and a good damage potential will make it a lost easier to break enemy infantry units. What you decide to go for is going to depend on what battlefield role you plant to use them for and how much you need to bulk up your battleline. 2 Units have a lot more flexibility than one big unit but costs more. If we return to the problem of elven elites earlier, killy marauders will generally take more casualties than killy warriors but in a large unit are more likely to have a full 2 ranks of models to fight back with. Against white lions for example you will lose 13.3 marauders and kill 7.5 in return (10 if in horde formation). With a deeper unit the marauders will hold due to steadfast (but lose frenzy) and can thwack away a second round again losing 13 and killing 5 (7.5 in horde) in return. This means you are losing every turn and against a large elite block will eventually be wiped out. However you are also killing elite 15 point models whereas your opponent is killing 5 point ones. So first turn 66 points of marauders die compared to 112.5 (150 if horde) points of elven elites. From the second round you are losing 66 points of marauders compared to 75 (112.5) points of elven elites. From this perspective things don’t look as bad, and unless the elven unit is huge they will soon be losing attacks from their second row as well. The elves will win but will suffer a lot of damage and just a little further nudge will grant victory to the marauders- a chariot, a character with stream of corruption (or a killy character). Also a unit of 20 elven elites is running 330-405 points depending on magic items. GW or flails? I would say units of over 25 are better off with great weapons since they have the numbers to survive a charge and can happily puree the opponent over several turns. Units of 20 or less are probably better off with flails since they are at risk of suffering casualties (from missiles magic or from a shock/elite troop charge) that will greatly reduce their ability to strike back so making use of I4 to strike first is generally more important. Anvil Marauders The second build for marauders, as for chaos warriors is the Tzeentch anvil. With light armour, shield and mark of Tzeentch (or just shields and mark of Tzeentch if tight for points) the unit has a 5+ armour save and a 5+ ward save against most things to the front. Combined 5 wide with 5, preferably 6 ranks deep, they are likely to hold almost anything charging from the front for a considerable length of time as long as they pass their steadfast break tests and in combat with another basic infantry unit (like empire halberdiers) they will probably win combat by a small margin. They will lose against orc boyz first round but win from the second round on, will lose against elf spearmen by a fairly small margin every turn and so on. Still this is primarily an anvil unit and can also function as a decent mage bunker since losing 6 point models in a miscast is nowhere near as bad as losing 17 point ones. So marauders can generally fulfill the same roles that chaos warriors can and for 2/3 the price and a generally higher chance of steadfast which might make us believe that marauders are superior. Warriors, however still have several advantages over marauders: 1) They are much harder to kill. Against S3 shooting they will take less than a quarter of the wounds naked Khorne marauders will and a third of the wounds Tzeentch light armour+shield marauders will take. So statistically its more points efficient to kill marauders with S3 shooting. For S4 shooting warriors are more efficient to shoot at and for S3 armour piercing/S3 poison they are about even. In combat though not losing models can be even more important for winning the combat. A typical unit of empire halberdiers will kill 3 marauders or about 1.5 warriors so its much of a muchness. On the other hand HE spears will kill 7.5 marauders and take 7.5 casualties in return and will generally have the same or better CR (war banner). As soon as frenzied marauders lose a single combat round they will be broken soon afterwards. Chaos warriors however will only lose 2.5 models and kill 13.3 in return and will butcher the unit in short order. Marauders striking last with GW is also an issue with heavy cavalry-‐ a bretonnian lance can inflict 5 casualties on marauders and suffer two in return and the lance may have enough ranks to prevent the marauders being steadfast meaning the marauders will probably break, even with a bsb nearby. Halberd warriors will strike first against the bretonnians killing 3, maybe reducing the attacks against them and will suffer 2 wounds in return probably resulting in a draw and the warriors defeating the bretonnians next turn. 2) They are killier Ws5 is still better thanWs4 against a lot of things and warriors also have more attacks than a marauder unit (unless its horde in which case they are equal). Warriors do strike harder and more consistently so. Killier is also an important feature when comparing Tzeentch anvils-‐ the warrior anvil will actually defeat most opposing units orc boyz, saurus spears, human infantry, HE and DE spears, some elites and shock troops. 3) They can take a magic banner. There are many useful magic banners available now, banner of rage, war banner, rapturous standard, blasted standard etc. none of these are an option for marauders. 4) Warriors have base Ld8 rather than Ld7. This means when the general is not nearby warriors will pass steadfast break tests, panic tests (tzeentch and nurgle marked) and frenzy restraint tests 72% of the time rather than 58% of the time. With a bsb its 92.3% compared to 82.6%. These are substantial differences, and especially important when you want your general doing other things (like leading the cavalry on his jugger or flying around zapping things on a disk). All in all marauders and warriors are both excellent units and having a mix of both is probably the best way to go overall. Interestingly 40 horde khorne marauders will lose convincingly to 18 frenzied warriors with halberds (who must first go 12 wide and receive the charge) and will be wiped out second combat phase without a chance to attack whereas 50 horde khorne marauders will wipe the chaos warriors out since the first turn kills by the marauders will seriously deplete the fighting potential of the warriors. Horde Khorne marauders are one scary unit if charged to the front, but ear in mind that even a unit of 30 empire halberdiers charging the flank of the unit will comfortably break it in one turn. Speed Bump/flanking/semi threatening marauders A final setup we could try with marauders is the speed bump. This would be a unit of 12 or 18 marauders 6 wide with flails with no marks or command (perhaps mark of slaanesh, maybe khorne if you have plenty of points to spare). These cheap 60/90 point units could potentially be a nice little flanking unit for denying combat resolution and can happily beat human infantry/goblins/gnoblars on the first turn if charging the front and will win almost every round if they get the flank. The 18 marauder unit is also a bit dangerous to smaller units of knights and monstroud infantry-‐ 4 ogre bulls will lose one or two models before they get to strike and will probably lose the combat. Vanilla knights will lose 2 models if the marauders win the I roll off. Not the best use of marauders mentioned here, but might suit those who like to have more units on the table top. Command Groups for Warriors and Marauders For both warriors and marauders its now worthwhile investing in the full command group standards give +1CR and now give up few VPs, musicians allow the fast reform and +1CR in drawn combats and are cheap. Champions are excellent when challenging monster riding characters, especially in 8th since if the rider kills the champion the dragon/griffin/whatever can't attack at all. |
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| rothgar13 | Jan 21 2012, 08:06 AM Post #13 |
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Clanlord
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A very good analysis, and I agree with his points, especially regarding the Tzeentch Marauders, which some people like for some reason I can't fathom, given the existence of the Tzeentch Warrior build.
Edited by rothgar13, Jan 21 2012, 08:06 AM.
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| Darth Urbrambus | Jan 23 2012, 05:17 PM Post #14 |
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The Chosen
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I have tried several setups now and I'm still looking lol. The success of horde marauders (MoK + GW) greatly depends on your adversary. Against HE and DW I find they struggle (HE hitting much easier + re-rolls + low T + no AS so every wound is a dead marauder, high T of DW + DW AS). I think 6 or 7 wide is enough against DW and maybe against all others as well. Khorne marauders with flails keep their initiative which could be very handy in some situations. I think that will be my next setup, putting them next to my MoT warrior block to give me some extra punch. They tend to be a one-shot unit though, but when used in this way are more than able to give you a winning combat res. Marauders with HW, shield and MoT are very durable and can hold up an enemy unit long enough to counter charge. Damage output sucks, but that's not what you use them for. Could be partnered to your MoK warriors. |
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| theorox | Jan 23 2012, 05:27 PM Post #15 |
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Clanlord
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I run 50 with GW's, MoK and FC. Every game Flails would have performed better than the GW's. xD Also run a unit of 10 with flails and MoK, it's worked well the short time I've used it. Theo Edited by theorox, Jan 23 2012, 05:28 PM.
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